Forum - View topic
NEWS: Crunchyroll Launches 1080p High-Definition Streams


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cyberbeing



Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 135
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:32 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
cyberbeing wrote:
... They would have been much better of just going with high-bitrate 720p. But hey, if the placebo of 1080p streaming attracts new subscribers who don't know better, why not.

As above, they couldn't have "just" increased the 720p bitrate without squeezing out existing 720p viewers who are near the edge of what their systems allow.

I was talking about using high-bitrate 720p instead of 1080p for the new highest quality streaming option, not touching the existing 360p/480p/720p options.

360p/480p/720p/1080p -> 360p/480p/720p/720p_HQ.


agila61 wrote:
As far as doing frame animation in 540p and upscaling that against 1080p backgrounds, with 1080p post-processing ...
... if Bleach, a long-running early evening Shonen Jump series, is presently working that way, that suggests its a pretty cheap way to produce anime for eventual BD release, so it would not be surprising if a lot of seasonal anime series are working along similar lines.

With lower res frame animation upscaled against 1080p backgrounds, is it necessarily the case that doubling the 720p bitrate would indeed be superior in perceived quality on a big screen TV to 1080p at that same doubled bitrate? Unless "720p HQ" at the higher bitrate (somewhere around 3Mb/sec to 4Mb/sec), the simplicity of communicating "720p" versus "1080p" would argue strongly for the 1080p stream.

...One other thing it says that is worth remembering is: "7 months ago". Summer 2011 and Winter 2012 are not the same anime production projects, and what was true of the projects in Summer 2011 is not necessarily true of all of the projects in Winter 2012...


You seem to be falsely assuming that any of these shows use 1080p. None of the Winter 2012 anime have 1080p backgrounds. As of today, 95% of shows have an effective resolution either/both background & animation right around 720p. In the Fall 2011 season, Fate/Zero was the only show Crunchyroll was streaming which have an effective resolution above 720p. Bleach on the other hand has an effective resolution barely above 480p for both backgrounds and animation.

agila61 wrote:
Quote:
Note: Anime is commonly drawn between 480p and 720p, and 1080p are most often upscales from those. Certain non-animation assets are sometimes rendered at the higher resolution.

That says something quite different than "anime is made in 480p or 720p, the rest are upscale except very certain exceptions"...

...Reading is fundamental: "Anime is commonly drawn between 480p and 720p" simple does not mean the same thing as "either 480 or 720p"...

...Obviously in those series it would be silly to render the frame animation at either 480p or 720p, when 540p will upscale to the 1080p background more cleanly than either 480p or 720p would do...

I would agree that everyone should read it, but read it, do not project your own biases and misconceptions into it.


Everything you've said so far are your own biases based on assumptions from things you've read, rather than what you actually have true knowledge of as facts. Even though 540p to 1080p (2x) will upscale truer to the original line-work than 720p to 1080p (1.5x), 720p is still preferred for the increased sharpness, contrast, and resolution post-upscale. We've only recently reached a landmark where the majority of anime is now 720p. It could be another 5-10+ years before studios make the move to producing everything in 1080p, if that ever happens. The higher the resolution, the more expensive it becomes to maintain quality from start to finish on the limited budget of most anime.

The only visual benefit that Crunchyroll subscribers potentially have with 1080p vs high-bitrate 720p, would be if the resize algorithm they use in their flash player is really crappy when viewing in fullscreen, or conversely, if the resize algorithm they use to downscale from 1080p to 720p when encoding is too soft.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:05 pm Reply with quote
cyberbeing wrote:
The only visual benefit that Crunchyroll subscribers potentially have with 1080p vs high-bitrate 720p, would be if the resize algorithm they use in their flash player is really crappy when viewing in fullscreen, or conversely, if the resize algorithm they use to downscale from 1080p to 720p when encoding is too soft.

But you are framing the question in terms of whether 1080p is appreciably better than 720p at an identical bitrate, when a commercial case for doing "720p HQ" instead of 1080p requires that the 720p "HQ" provides a clear visual benefit over the 1080p stream, across the board, at the same bitrate as the 1080p stream.

Unless the "720p HQ" is appreciably better at the same bitrate, why do the upgrade with the extra processing step and the smaller marketing punch?

So far, all the comparisons that have been passed on in this thread and the preceding on anchored on the press release have been between higher bitrate digital television broadcast and the 1080p stream, and those are entirely beside the point.

And the claims that the upgrade is a placebo effect requires that the 1080p at the approximately doubled bitrate is no better than the current 720p streaming. When in the Press Release thread, Sam Murai reports:
Sam Murai wrote:
The uptick in quality from the 1080p option is certainly legit, contrary to what some have said. Screenshots, surprisingly, don't really do it justice--the difference is noticeable when you watch the video itself. I'd also contend that the audio quality is better, too, though ultimately, the overall benefits of 1080p largely rest on the productions themselves.

... I see no reason why I should believe that is a placebo effect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
TheAncientOne



Joined: 06 Oct 2010
Posts: 1841
Location: USA (mid-south)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:47 pm Reply with quote
Sacto0562 wrote:
Here's the problem: nobody I know of broadcasts over the air in 1080p, even in over-air terrestrial broadcasting. I believe in the USA (using ATSC) and Japan (using ISDB-T) the maximum resolution is 1080 interlaced (1080i), and I believe many Japanese broadcasters use 720p as their HD broadcast resolution standard.

As such, it's way overkill to offer 1080p. Also, unless you have cable Internet that can do at least 12 megabits/second sustained download speed or Verzion FIOS, the bandwidth requirements for 1080p is too much for most broadband users here in the USA.

Crunchyroll is limited by what material is delivered to them, not what is broadcast. For those declaring these must be upscales (and if indeed they are, it is the licensor that is doing it, not CR), then you must also be declaring that every single anime BD on the market is an upscale.

As to your assertion that watching these streams requires "at least 12 megabits/second", I was able to watch one of the 1080p simulcasts yesterday...on a 5mbps DSL connection.

I haven't tested the average bitrate of CR's 1080p, but I would be surprised if it was higher than 3.6mbps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:49 pm Reply with quote
TheAncientOne wrote:
For those declaring these must be upscales (and if indeed they are, it is the licensor that is doing it, not CR), then you must also be declaring that every single anime BD on the market is an upscale.


Every single TV anime BD is an upscale, yes. Only movies are made in true 1080.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:59 pm Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:
TheAncientOne wrote:
For those declaring these must be upscales (and if indeed they are, it is the licensor that is doing it, not CR), then you must also be declaring that every single anime BD on the market is an upscale.


Every single TV anime BD is an upscale, yes. Only movies are made in true 1080.

However, if any original material is 1080p, then despite not being "true 1080", the 1080 material delivered to Crunchyroll includes more detail than will be in the 720p downscale made from it.

And in the end whether something can be called "true 1080" or "all upscaled from 540p" or something in between doesn't address the actual relevant question: whether downscaling their source material to 720p and then encoding it at the same bitrate they now use for 1080p would have a visibly superior result for all series across the board, now and over the next year or two.

As cyberbeing indirectly noted, if the upscaling used by the animation producer when rendering the production onto the 1080p or 1080i transport ~ which can be performed by high end digital processing equipment and can be fine tuned to the material being upscaled ~ is superior to the upscaling performed on the fly by the big screen TV when it upscales 720p to 1080p, then the end result can be a superior picture independent of whether the original source material is in 720p.

And cyberbeing has claimed Fate/Zero has source material with a resolution above 720p:
cyberbeing wrote:
In the Fall 2011 season, Fate/Zero was the only show Crunchyroll was streaming which have an effective resolution above 720p.

... you are claiming it doesn't. Is there some way to arrange for you two to fight it out in a corner to work out which it is?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
LUNI_TUNZ



Joined: 28 Apr 2010
Posts: 803
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:11 pm Reply with quote
Are we honestly arguing over one or two maligned pixels, here?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tylerr



Joined: 13 Nov 2010
Posts: 469
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:38 pm Reply with quote
The 1080p stream they do is only about 500MB, that's highly compressed.

And as far as i'm aware Naruto\bleach are not made in 1080p\720p, there is a reason why they are not released on blu-ray.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jmfsilenthill



Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 1863
Location: Chinese cartoons are srs biz
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:05 pm Reply with quote
I have enough problems trying to watch free episodes of Gintama on crunchyroll, I don't think I'd ever subscribe to them, even with 1080p. Maybe it's just my computer, but using two different browsers the video always freezes up and never starts again. Anybody have these problems?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cyberbeing



Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 135
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:06 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
However, if any original material is 1080p, then despite not being "true 1080", the 1080 material delivered to Crunchyroll includes more detail than will be in the 720p downscale made from it.

Detail should be identical between 720p & 1080p for 95% of anime. That last 5% is made up of the rare high-budget anime with higher resolution lineart and/or background art assets.

agila61 wrote:
...whether downscaling their source material to 720p and then encoding it at the same bitrate they now use for 1080p would have a visibly superior result for all series across the board, now and over the next year or two.

As cyberbeing indirectly noted, if the upscaling used by the animation producer when rendering the production onto the 1080p or 1080i transport ~ which can be performed by high end digital processing equipment and can be fine tuned to the material being upscaled ~ is superior to the upscaling performed on the fly by the big screen TV when it upscales 720p to 1080p, then the end result can be a superior picture independent of whether the original source material is in 720p.


There are two sides of the coin here.

A) All of Crunchyroll's encodes have problems with artifacts and banding. This could be solved with better encoding practices, higher bitrate, and potentially filtering.

B) Resizing the picture multiple times potentially softens the picture, even if no detail is lost doing 720->1080->720->1080. There is merit to keeping a high-quality studio upscaled source material as upscaled to maintain sharpness when viewed at 1080p screen, but only if Crunchyroll resolves problem A) in the process, which they didn't.

Crunchyroll has the advantage of better source material, but often has much poorer encode quality than fansubbers who only have access to lower quality mpeg2 transport streams. This as you would guess, is a bit of a problem, and why many would prefer higher-quality 720p encodes which improve encode quality and show off the better source material, rather than studio-upscaled 1080p which has some of the same encoding issues as their present 720p streams.

-50% encoding flaws 720p HQ > +2% sharpness 1080p (studio-upscaled)

agila61 wrote:
And cyberbeing has claimed Fate/Zero has source material with a resolution above 720p:
cyberbeing wrote:
In the Fall 2011 season, Fate/Zero was the only show Crunchyroll was streaming which have an effective resolution above 720p.

... you are claiming it doesn't. Is there some way to arrange for you two to fight it out in a corner to work out which it is?


Just to be clear, above 720p != 1080p. In the case of Fate/Zero, I believe it fell somewhere between 810p and 960p. It was still an upscale, just less of one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:24 pm Reply with quote
Tylerr wrote:
The 1080p stream they do is only about 500MB, that's highly compressed.


True MB or marketing MB? Is that over 22min? 25min? Assuming marketing MB, at 25min that's 2.67Mb/sec, at 22min, that's 3Mb/sec ... the 720p streams are about 1.5Mb/sec, so that sounds in the right neighborhood. The question is, would the stream be visibly better on a big screen TV if they streamed at that bitrate and at 720p resolution.

Unless the 720p stream at that same bitrate would be visibly superior, then the rest of it is angels dancing on a head of a pin type arguments.

Quote:
And as far as i'm aware Naruto\bleach are not made in 1080p\720p, there is a reason why they are not released on blu-ray.

Crunchyroll is simulcasting the series, I don't know why one of their technicians would say the frames are animated at 540p if they are in fact animated at 480p.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
superdry



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
Posts: 1309
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:07 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
Tylerr wrote:
The 1080p stream they do is only about 500MB, that's highly compressed.


True MB or marketing MB? Is that over 22min? 25min? Assuming marketing MB, at 25min that's 2.67Mb/sec, at 22min, that's 3Mb/sec ... the 720p streams are about 1.5Mb/sec, so that sounds in the right neighborhood. The question is, would the stream be visibly better on a big screen TV if they streamed at that bitrate and at 720p resolution.

Unless the 720p stream at that same bitrate would be visibly superior, then the rest of it is angels dancing on a head of a pin type arguments.


I've done personal encodes with no filtering of some shows that hover around that bitrate and they look perfectly fine in 1080p (of course not all shows will look great at that bitrate). Then again, I'm not going through each frame with a fine tooth comb with my face pressed up against my PC monitor. If I notice a problem watching it on my TV, then, yes, I'll go back and reencode.

~3mbps for their 720p should help cut down on problems like banding (unless it's in the source already) and artifacting. It sounds like CR pretty much encodes all their 720p video at 1.5mbps which will work for some shows, but not for others. I guess 1.5mbps was used as a compromise bitrate for streaming.

Now, I think about it, I personally would love to see CR do higher quality 720p than compromised video quality for 1080p streams.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hotaru99



Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 40
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:09 pm Reply with quote
ShanaFan852 wrote:
Hotaru99 wrote:
I just started my free trial on a Roku Box yesterday, and I plan on keeping it so far. Definately much better than paying 400 bucks to see Fate/Zero in HD.
You do realize most of the people who want that Fate/Zero Blu-ray box (Like me) want to own it physically on Blu-ray, get those extras, and premium packaging, not just to see it in HD right?

If I wanted to just watch it in HD, I could stick with the 720P streams Aniplex USA is offering people still on Crunchyroll if I had the Anime Membership (I want one, I just don't have a Paypal, debit card, or credit card currently, and I know my dad wouldn't use his stuff for something like the Anime Membership on CR. Online shopping he'll use it (Even though the money comes out of what I worked for.), not CR.).

Anyway, glad to see this finally happen. Maybe more might go with CR instead of torrents, but you'll still have the "Why pay $5 a month for HD, no commercials, and an hour after the Japanese airing when I can download fansubs for free a few days later?" mentality.


I want all of that too, but at a reasonable price. For 13 episodes, with all the extras if it had even been as high as $99, I'd have it pre-ordered already.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:16 am Reply with quote
cyberbeing wrote:
agila61 wrote:
However, if any original material is 1080p, then despite not being "true 1080", the 1080 material delivered to Crunchyroll includes more detail than will be in the 720p downscale made from it.

Detail should be identical between 720p & 1080p for 95% of anime. That last 5% is made up of the rare high-budget anime with higher resolution lineart and/or background art assets.


Yes, that's the theory, but that's not what the series by series review comparing the Crunchyroll 1080p streams to 720p Japanese digital television captures says:

Another: "Sharper than the TV broadcast, with mastering / highest asset resolution being approximately 1600x900"

Nisemonogatari: "it has sharper picture than the TV broadcast and the highest asset resolution seems to be around 1600x900"

New Prince of Tennis: "Mastering / highest asset resolution seems to be around 1440x810 or so."

Fate/Zero: "Background art seems to have been done at 1280x720, but lineart seems to be of higher resolution, topping at around 1600x900 as well."

Miniskirt Space Pirates: "Some space backgrounds and CG seems to be have been rendered at around 1600x900"

The other four, Natsume Yuujinchou, Inu x Boku, Brave10, and Ano Natsu de Matteru, were considered to have a mastering resolution of not above 720p.

That is 0% with all material judged to be above 720p, but 55% with some material judged to be above 720p. So when you said "only 5%", maybe you meant "only 55%" and dropped a digit?

As far as "source material seems to be around 1600x900", that could be 1080p x 80%, or 1536 x 854, which would give a BD appreciably sharper than a 720p terrestrial digital HDTV broadcast, at 64% of the processing and storage cost of a 1080p process, and a 4:5 upscale to the transport medium. And the Prince of Tennis at 1440x810 ... 1080p x 75% ... that also seems quite plausible, since 75%^2 = 56% of the storage and processing cost, and a 3:4 upscale to the transport medium, and still allow for a BD release that can be seen to be sharper than TV capture RAWs floating around the internet ~ though not as clearly as the 1080p x 80% resolution.

Quote:
agila61 wrote:
...whether downscaling their source material to 720p and then encoding it at the same bitrate they now use for 1080p would have a visibly superior result for all series across the board, now and over the next year or two.

As cyberbeing indirectly noted, if the upscaling used by the animation producer when rendering the production onto the 1080p or 1080i transport ~ which can be performed by high end digital processing equipment and can be fine tuned to the material being upscaled ~ is superior to the upscaling performed on the fly by the big screen TV when it upscales 720p to 1080p, then the end result can be a superior picture independent of whether the original source material is in 720p.


There are two sides of the coin here.

A) All of Crunchyroll's encodes have problems with artifacts and banding. This could be solved with better encoding practices, higher bitrate, and potentially filtering.

"Solve the problem with higher bitrate"? What "problem" do you think is being solved, exactly? You crank up the bitrate, you crank up the bandwidth cost per episode, you reduce the revenue net of bandwidth costs available to be used to try to land more anime for more countries.

The "problem" is not to deliver fansub groups raw video sources that they can manipulate a bit to impress freeloader downloaders, the "problem" is how to keep growing the subscriber base to get more titles for more countries to grow the subscriber base to get more titles for more countries, etc., and repeat until you've "got them all"

Quote:
B) Resizing the picture multiple times potentially softens the picture, even if no detail is lost doing 720->1080->720->1080. There is merit to keeping a high-quality studio upscaled source material as upscaled to maintain sharpness when viewed at 1080p screen, but only if Crunchyroll resolves problem A) in the process, which they didn't.

Hell, if Crunchyroll beats 720p digital television captures without hard bitrate limits for a number of their new simulcasts in the first week of 1080p streaming, its sounds like they are doing quite well, and in particular substantially better than HuluPlus, their only rival among sites with substantial current simulcasts for breadth device access.

Quote:
Crunchyroll has the advantage of better source material, but often has much poorer encode quality than fansubbers who only have access to lower quality mpeg2 transport streams.
... and who can just "increase the bitrate" and add more key frames because you don't have to find a paying audience to fund the cost of your bandwidth.

Quote:
This as you would guess, is a bit of a problem, and why many would prefer higher-quality 720p encodes which improve encode quality and show off the better source material, rather than studio-upscaled 1080p which has some of the same encoding issues as their present 720p streams.


Oh, wait, you are criticizing Crunchyroll for not being the best quality source to generate bootleg downloads!

As far as that ... good! Crunchyroll is in the streaming video business, not the generate RAWs for bootleg downloaders business. Beggers can't be choosers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:34 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
"Solve the problem with higher bitrate"? What "problem" do you think is being solved, exactly? You crank up the bitrate, you crank up the bandwidth cost per episode, you reduce the revenue net of bandwidth costs available to be used to try to land more anime for more countries.

The "problem" is not to deliver fansub groups raw video sources that they can manipulate a bit to impress freeloader downloaders, the "problem" is how to keep growing the subscriber base to get more titles for more countries to grow the subscriber base to get more titles for more countries, etc., and repeat until you've "got them all"


The big thing is that many people don't see why you should pay when you can get better quality video elsewhere. I know quite a few people myself who would subscribe to Crunchy if they gave comparable bitrates to fansubs. I'm currently subscribed, but I go off and on depending on if I feel like spending 7 bucks that month... but I'd go ahead and pay for an entire year if they gave fansub quality bitrates.

I think they'd get significantly more subscribers if they offered a comparable product.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
cyberbeing



Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 135
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:57 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
cyberbeing wrote:
agila61 wrote:
However, if any original material is 1080p, then despite not being "true 1080", the 1080 material delivered to Crunchyroll includes more detail than will be in the 720p downscale made from it.

Detail should be identical between 720p & 1080p for 95% of anime. That last 5% is made up of the rare high-budget anime with higher resolution lineart and/or background art assets.


Yes, that's the theory, but that's not what the series by series review comparing the Crunchyroll 1080p streams to 720p Japanese digital television captures says...

...That is 0% with all material judged to be above 720p, but 55% with some material judged to be above 720p. So when you said "only 5%", maybe you meant "only 55%" and dropped a digit?

As far as "source material seems to be around 1600x900", that could be 1080p x 80%, or 1536 x 854, which would give a BD appreciably sharper than a 720p terrestrial digital HDTV broadcast, at 64% of the processing and storage cost of a 1080p process, and a 4:5 upscale to the transport medium. And the Prince of Tennis at 1440x810 ... 1080p x 75% ... that also seems quite plausible, since 75%^2 = 56% of the storage and processing cost, and a 3:4 upscale to the transport medium, and still allow for a BD release that can be seen to be sharper than TV capture RAWs floating around the internet ~ though not as clearly as the 1080p x 80% resolution.

Those comparisons were done by Daiz of the 1080i Transport Streams @1080p vs Crunchyroll 1080p. Though I have to disagree with Daiz. See here, which I've checked myself against Crunchyroll's 1080p and agree with. None of the series Daiz claims had 1600x900 assets visible in the Transport Streams were assessed to be anything greater than 1280x720 when measured technically, with the exception of Fate/Zero. It makes me sad to think Daiz is loosing his ability to detect upscales. As much as I hate to say it, that Japanese site is well-known and much more reliable than Daiz subjectively analyzing the resolution of encodes on a whim.

agila61 wrote:
"Solve the problem with higher bitrate"? What "problem" do you think is being solved, exactly? You crank up the bitrate, you crank up the bandwidth cost per episode, you reduce the revenue net of bandwidth costs available to be used to try to land more anime for more countries.

Yes, you explained exactly what these new higher bitrate 1080p streams do, good job. Rolling Eyes

agila61 wrote:
The "problem" is not to deliver fansub groups raw video sources that they can manipulate a bit to impress freeloader downloaders,...
...Crunchyroll is in the streaming video business, not the generate RAWs for bootleg downloaders business. Beggers can't be choosers.

Fansub groups as of yet, have never used Crunchyroll's raw video sources, I don't know where you got that idea. If Crunchyroll wants to continue growing, eventually they are going to need to work on their encode quality, in order to attract users who value video quality away from fansubs. With fansubbing slowly dying over the past few years, attracting these users to streaming will become important for Crunchyroll sooner than you think.

agila61 wrote:
Hell, if Crunchyroll beats 720p digital television captures without hard bitrate limits for a number of their new simulcasts in the first week of 1080p streaming, its sounds like they are doing quite well...

Once again, 1080i digital television captures which display at 1920x1080p, not 720p. They are basically identical to the transport streams without the mpeg2 artifacts, and potentially different processing being done when creating digital work raws from the source tapes. That is nothing new, you could even see it to some extent in Crunchyroll's 720p streams for the past few years. If you looked hard enough it wasn't hard to tell Crunchyroll had nice source material, but their encode quality always ruined it, and that hasn't changed with the introduction of 1080p.


Last edited by cyberbeing on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:10 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group