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morsmaestro wrote:

I definitely need to rewatch Haibane Renmei. This is truly art at it's best. Maybe I should look into Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World also.

Hard-boiled Wonderland and the End of the World is a fantastic read, albeit quite a bit different from Haibane Renmei. The book has a more "cyberpunk" feel, for lack of a better term. The "end of the world" setting in the book is a mirror image of the walled city of Guri in Haibane, but there's not much in the way of similarities past that. Abunai did sum it up nicely in the thread he linked to earlier.

I would like to take the word of the creators of works as law, but the truth is its not. It is subject to alteration, and is flexible. Years later a little tidbit comes out of nowhere, and changes everything around. I have noticed time, and again. People interpret, reinterpret, reexamine, and often even psychoanalyze what they make.

Sometimes it follows the telephone game you play as a kid except it goes on in the creators head. Each time more, and more, and more details show up. I doubt its a case of the creator being dishonest.

It is just how memory, and the human mind works. Even as something is being created intentions, and motivations go through review. To put it succinctly as the creator grows over time most often their interpretations of their works goes through modification.

I always wondered and this is a bit off topic but is worth thought. How George Carlin felt after 9/11. Here is a guy who did a comedy routine not long before it happened about the lack of security on airplanes. He brought up the interesting point about all the dangerous things you can bring on a airplane. Especially alot of sharp items. I always wondered how his interpretation of that routine has changed since that pivotal day. I have not seen him comment on it, or seen anyone else comment on it. I consider it an opportunity missed here was a guy in an amuseing manner predicting exactly what would happen. My guess is his interpretation of the skit has gone through some modification, or atleast his fealings about it.

opaquescum wrote:

I would like to take the word of the creators of works as law, but the truth is its not. It is subject to alteration, and is flexible. Years later a little tidbit comes out of nowhere, and changes everything around. I have noticed time, and again. People interpret, reinterpret, reexamine, and often even psychoanalyze what they make.

And I believe that is a part of true art. Poetry doesn't have to be taken one way or another. Art can have something new in it that people never saw before, maybe something the creator didn't intend for. "Poetry is what is lost in translation"
I admire Yoshitoshi ABe for encouraging his fans to interpret his works on their own.

morsmaestro wrote:

opaquescum wrote:

I would like to take the word of the creators of works as law, but the truth is its not. It is subject to alteration, and is flexible. Years later a little tidbit comes out of nowhere, and changes everything around. I have noticed time, and again. People interpret, reinterpret, reexamine, and often even psychoanalyze what they make.

And I believe that is a part of true art. Poetry doesn't have to be taken one way or another. Art can have something new in it that people never saw before, maybe something the creator didn't intend for. "Poetry is what is lost in translation"

Yep. And even if the author is pushing his/her own views, you can always take the Barthesian approach: "Screw authorial intentions!" Wink

(Oh, and poetry can also be created in translation. It is not just a losing game.)

But to clarify my point of view, I'm not in principle opposed to the interpretation that all haibane are suicides. If I see that it works logically without feeling too contrived, I probably adopt it. I just still feel that such a narrow definition raises some logical problems/issues about elements of the haibane world that seemed more or less natural under a more vague explanation. (And, well, it also somehow feels like taking some punch out of Reki's story. Embarassed

) The haibane universe is so dreamlike that it seems almost violent to hammer everything under such a rigorous explanation. (Here I go, first complaining that the logic doesn't add up and then appealing to sentimental reasons - not exactly a "winning tactic". ^^;; )

morsmaestro wrote:

I admire Yoshitoshi ABe for encouraging his fans to interpret his works on their own.

Same here. I especially love the story about the beginning of the world and the birth of haibane. It is a beautiful legend, and it fits, but it is by no means definitive - after all, the characters made it up, and they know almost as little about the truth as the viewers. It is as if ABe wanted to say "I can't claim any absolute knowledge about how the haibane came into being, but I think this would be a nice possibility. What do you think?" He got to tell a charming creation story, yet managed to leave it completely open to interpretation in relation to the "reality" of the haibane world. I really liked that move.

I, too, can't wrap my mind around all of the Haibane being suicides. The teens, maybe, but not the small children. I mean, if you want someone to come to a resolution about oneself, such as being worthy of forgiveness; to, in effect, grow as a person, then it doesn't make sense to regress them mentally to a child in order to accomplish said growth as a teen. (This is assuming that small children don't commit suicide and that therefore they were at least teens when they died.) If you regress them mentally, they are no longer the same person, no longer in the same state of mind, as they were when they decided to commit suicide.
The decision to commit suicide is the result of despair due to previous life experiences and the person's reasonings of what he can expect in the future, as well as his current state of mind. Reversion to a child changes a person's reasoning, interpretation of past events, self-identity and his expectations for the future. The fact that the Haibane are expected to come to grips with their reasons for suicide without explicit help or guidence assumes that they have a self-awareness and identity that small children simply don't possess.
It just makes more sense to me that Old Home, meaning the entire walled-in area, is a half-way house for those who need time to accept that their previous life has ended, and/or, in the case of the children, become mentally ready to begin the next stage in their journey. The spirits of those who are unable to let go of or accept the past, i.e. take flight, eventually wither and die. Those who were in such distressed mental condition that they ended their own lives would understandably have a harder time moving on than those whose previous lives ended otherwise.

Quote:

Hmm. This echoes the Christian concept of "limbo" (or, in Dantean terms, the outermost circle of Hell) -- and I'm sorry to say this, but I find it a bit superficial. Any deeper thought on the matter will make it evident that there is no particular reason to consider it "dying before time" for a child to die, as opposed to an adult. Any death is premature and unfortunate.

To me, one's time to die depends upon whether or not one is prepared for what awaits us next. If one is prepared he can make the transition peacefully, if not, then one may need a place of adjustment, which in this case would be Old Home.

WesW wrote:

If you regress them mentally, they are no longer the same person, no longer in the same state of mind, as they were when they decided to commit suicide.

A point that would be good, were it not completely mooted by the fact that the haibane have forgotten all of their past, with the exception of their individual and highly stylized dreams.

In other words, what's going on isn't a process of psychological progress through self-understanding, but rather, a blanking of the slate. The haibane are being given a fresh start, not a full course of deep psychoanalysis.

WesW wrote:

The fact that the Haibane are expected to come to grips with their reasons for suicide

Hmm. I don't think anyone has claimed that. The obvious conclusion to the circumstances of their rebirth, rather, would be that they are supposed to learn a different lesson: that life is worth living. Believe me when I say that this lesson, in itself, can be difficult enough to learn.

WesW wrote:

It just makes more sense to me that Old Home, meaning the entire walled-in area, is a half-way house for those who need time to accept that their previous life has ended, and/or, in the case of the children, become mentally ready to begin the next stage in their journey. The spirits of those who are unable to let go of or accept the past, i.e. take flight, eventually wither and die. Those who were in such distressed mental condition that they ended their own lives would understandably have a harder time moving on than those whose previous lives ended otherwise.

You know, I rather like this idea, though I think it is highly interpretative -- that the world of the walled city is a "halfway-house" for wounded souls, where the ones that can heal completely can move on, while the rest must remain as spiritual cripples (touga), ministering to the ones that still have hope. Very nice.

- abunai

abunai wrote:

A point that would be good, were it not completely mooted by the fact that the haibane have forgotten all of their past, with the exception of their individual and highly stylized dreams.

In other words, what's going on isn't a process of psychological progress through self-understanding, but rather, a blanking of the slate. The haibane are being given a fresh start, not a full course of deep psychoanalysis.

I would agree with that, exept that I can't quite see what makes Reki and Rakka such exceptions, then. Rakka, somehow: considering my theory on the raven (see above), that would leave something unresolved and gnawing. But Reki? If it were just the black wings, I'd understand - the circumstances of her hatching were traumatic enough. But why such a direct and cruel cocoon dream? There was nothing gentle and stylized in that, and she had to remember it all before being able to move on. If they were all suicides, why is she the only one (at least among the current cast) that has to face that truth so directly?

abunai wrote:

The obvious conclusion to the circumstances of their rebirth, rather, would be that they are supposed to learn a different lesson: that life is worth living.

I like that. The walled city could well be viewed as some kind of rehabilitation center. Anime smile

(Though when I thought about it a bit more, it seems a bit incongruous that they need to leave just when they have learned that lesson. Not necessarily incompatible, though, learning to appreciate life, understanding its transience and leaving with no regrets.)

abunai wrote:

WesW wrote:

It just makes more sense to me that Old Home, meaning the entire walled-in area, is a half-way house for those who need time to accept that their previous life has ended, and/or, in the case of the children, become mentally ready to begin the next stage in their journey. The spirits of those who are unable to let go of or accept the past, i.e. take flight, eventually wither and die. Those who were in such distressed mental condition that they ended their own lives would understandably have a harder time moving on than those whose previous lives ended otherwise.

You know, I rather like this idea, though I think it is highly interpretative -- that the world of the walled city is a "halfway-house" for wounded souls, where the ones that can heal completely can move on, while the rest must remain as spiritual cripples (touga), ministering to the ones that still have hope. Very nice.

I really like that description as well. That is close to what I've been after, but WesW put it much better in words than I could. And abunai's definition of touga (or at least Washi, I'm not sure about the travellers) seems dead-on. I wonder if the Haibane Renmei are also such "failed haibane", or something completely else (divine representatives perhaps)?

Mushiko wrote:

....... And abunai's definition of touga (or at least Washi, I'm not sure about the travellers) seems dead-on. I wonder if the Haibane Renmei are also such "failed haibane", or something completely else (divine representatives perhaps)?

I could accept that the Communicator is a failed Haibane if it were not stated that failed Haibane lose their wings and remain within the wall until their eventual death which I believe is rather shortly thereafter.. The Communicator still has his wings, or at least he has wing covers on his back. The Touga can travel between towns which could mean that there are other walled towns in this universe. Remember in order to get to this world one has to die in our world. To me the whole concept of this world is as a support facility for the reconciliation and redemption of the haibane that is also a place of choice for those who have died of natural causes and have been rewarded with their idea of heaven hence the humans in the town. Heaven for the humans, Purgatory for the haibane. The Touga and the Communicator are staff members of the facility, and the humans and haibane are the clients.

abunai wrote:

WesW wrote:

The fact that the Haibane are expected to come to grips with their reasons for suicide

Hmm. I don't think anyone has claimed that. The obvious conclusion to the circumstances of their rebirth, rather, would be that they are supposed to learn a different lesson: that life is worth living. Believe me when I say that this lesson, in itself, can be difficult enough to learn.

Amen.

Mohawk52 wrote:

I could accept that the Communicator is a failed Haibane if it were not stated that failed Haibane lose their wings and remain within the wall until their eventual death which I believe is rather shortly thereafter..

During that particular sequence where the Communicator is describing what happens to Haibane that don't take the day of flight, it's implied pretty strongly that the Communicator (and presumably the rest of the Touga) are indeed Haibane that didn't take the day of flight. And I don't remember anything being said about them dying shortly after they lose their wings.

Anthony P wrote:

During that particular sequence where the Communicator is describing what happens to Haibane that don't take the day of flight, it's implied pretty strongly that the Communicator (and presumably the rest of the Touga) are indeed Haibane that didn't take the day of flight. And I don't remember anything being said about them dying shortly after they lose their wings.

So why was Reki so frightened by what he told her would happen if she didn't reconcile her sin and fail to reach her day of flight after Reki told him she was quite happy to stay there forever then?

Anime Marathon Discussion (Nov. 6th, 2015 - Nov. 15th, 2015)

Spoilers Reminder for Marathon Discussion: Tag all spoilers within your post(s) and record the episode number(s) you're discussing at the top of your post.

Last edited by CrowLia on Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Episodes 1-13

Finally got around watching this. It's a difficult show to talk about because I don't really know where to start. I had no idea of what it was going to be about when I started, and I was pleasantly surprised by it. I'd classify it as "slice of life fantasy". The premise and the pace of the story were very unique and charming. I do wonder why they called themselves "Haibane" when their wings were pretty much white as far as I could see though.

The strongest point of the show is definitely the Rakka-Reki relationship. It's very sweet and beautiful. They did a great job in slowly building that relationship and spoiler[making their mutual salvation the focus of the story], because it truly feels like their bond was special and above the one they shared with other Haibanes.

I also like that everyone in the core cast got at least a little bit of development in the early episodes. Having Rakka sample different jobs was a very smart way to get that done without making it forced. I particularly came to like Kana and spoiler[kind of wish we could've seen her more in the second half]

The world-building was great too. Although it feels like some things were left purposefully unexplained and I wished they had been a little clearer with some of the rules (spoiler[particularly what the town and its inhabitants were and why they couldn't leave town, and what exactly were these Toga people]), I think it worked for the story and the rules they'd set up. I particularly loved spoiler[the New Year's festival and all the significance of the bells/nuts, and the concept of the true name]

I liked it overall and really liked the theme spoiler[of moving on and learning to forgive yourself]. The music wasn't quite up my alley, though, and more than once I almost fell asleep due to the music and the muted colors. Rated Very Good

^ Just stopped by to say that actually, spoiler[there is a heavy implication that the Toga are fallen Haibane who never took the Day of Flight. If you notice during the scene where the Communicator explains the fate of Sinbound Haibane to Rakka, the camera focuses on his fake wings and his hood. Likewise, what the residents of the town are is up to the viewer to decide for themselves.]

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed the show. I'd like to do an analysis piece for Akane Analyzes. (Please, PLEASE stop by and leave a comment. Every response I get is very very important, and I'd appreciate it if more people left feedback.)

Ah, this was one of my favorite anime. I'm not religious by any stretch of the word, and I'm pretty apathetic toward the idea of God, the afterlife, etc. Despite this, I loved this show. The themes of forgiveness, especially of not being able to find forgiveness until you learn to forgive yourself, is brilliant and true to life. So far, I've loved both of the Yoshitoshi Abe anime I've seen (Lain and this), so I hope I enjoy Texhnolyze just as much!

This show is amazing. I ever had it listed as my favorite work of media of all time. Why? Because it is endowed with a powerful otherworldly atmosphere that is very special and unique. I don't think there are many works of media of any type operating at Haibane Renmei's level of emotional intensity. It is also very symbolic and contemplative, reminds me a bit of Aria as well but it is less cartoonish than Aria and more elegant, wartching it being almost a "transcendal" experience for me.

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