×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
ANNCast - S-E-X-X-I-S-M


Goto page Previous    Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
arromdee



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 71
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:40 pm Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:

If this is a definition as flexible as you say it is, I believe you will be able to demonstrate by arguing that the Miyazaki film Princess Mononoke is sexist.


Sorry, haven't seen it. Here's one for Nausicaa though.

http://acephalous.typepad.com/acephalous/2010/10/hayao-miyazaki-nausicaa-valley-of-the-wind-visual-rhetoric-film-theory/comments/page/1/#comments (search for "patriarchy")
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sailorsarah



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 189
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:37 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
Quote:
There's also too much emphasis on having a boyfriend, being part of the princess fantasy, taking care of her daughter


Yes, because having a lover and ("GASP") caring about your offspring is sexist and proof that you aren't a strong female character.



I have to agree with this. I am actually a bit offended by the original quote implying that taking a woman taking care of her children is not a strong character. Raising children is one of the hardest things anyone will ever do. It certainly requires some strength of character.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:47 pm Reply with quote
@arromdee:

Sorry, I haven't seen it.

In any event, it's problematic to think that something doesn't matter just because someone can put together a bizarre argument with it. For example, I can argue that Martin Luther King Jr. was a racist; that doesn't void the existence of racism.

That's not to say there don't exist words bereft of meaning before they're contextualized; "spiritual" is my favourite example of such a word. Visiting dictionary.com again:

Quote:

1. of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal.
2. of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to life.
3. closely akin in interests, attitude, outlook, etc.: the professor's spiritual heir in linguistics.
4. of or pertaining to spirits or to spiritualists; supernatural or spiritualistic.
5. characterized by or suggesting predominance of the spirit; ethereal or delicately refined: She is more of a spiritual type than her rowdy brother.
6. of or pertaining to the spirit as the seat of the moral or religious nature.
7. of or pertaining to sacred things or matters; religious; devotional; sacred.
8. of or belonging to the church; ecclesiastical: lords spiritual and temporal.
9. of or relating to the mind or intellect.


...and that's just the word as an adjective! Sexism, OTOH, is a word with a far more specific meaning; a recent invention used in the context of the feminism that spawned it. Although we may disagree on what is ultimately sexist, this is merely an intellectual shortcoming and not a reason to avoid the term.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:52 pm Reply with quote
sailorsarah wrote:
Chagen46 wrote:
Quote:
There's also too much emphasis on having a boyfriend, being part of the princess fantasy, taking care of her daughter


Yes, because having a lover and ("GASP") caring about your offspring is sexist and proof that you aren't a strong female character.



I have to agree with this. I am actually a bit offended by the original quote implying that taking a woman taking care of her children is not a strong character. Raising children is one of the hardest things anyone will ever do. It certainly requires some strength of character.


So you agree with an argument that was made against something nobody ever said.

The amount of mental gymnastics and tortured logic some of you have to go through in order to make the basic "why are we even talking about sexism?!?!?" is pretty ridiculous but not unexpected, I suppose.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime
arromdee



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 71
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:24 pm Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
@
In any event, it's problematic to think that something doesn't matter just because someone can put together a bizarre argument with it.


It's not just that someone can put together a bizarre argument with it, it's that lots of someones have put together a bizarre argument with it. The argument that character X is a stereotype because of characteristic Y is, in fact, applied very broadly, generally against something the fan doesn't like. Just look at that female character flowchart someone posted.

(And no, it wasn't ironic. You can read the original post that goes with it.)

Zac: And yes, Sailor Moon is really on it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:54 pm Reply with quote
@arromdee:

I think I'm beginning to see where you're coming from. You have found articles contending sexism to be something in the eye of the beholder; you conclude then that it's ultimately a meaningless criticism.

If that's the case, it appears that you have jumped to that conclusion. Whatever popularity or authority may be behind the article you cited, it's ostensibly a writing aid and hardly a comprehensive treatise on the subject. It's just food for thought. That might be provocative enough to muddy your waters, but a comfortable answer is not justified in the absence of a clear one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
arromdee



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 71
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:27 pm Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
@arromdee:

I think I'm beginning to see where you're coming from. You have found articles contending sexism to be something in the eye of the beholder;


No, it's almost the opposite. I've found people denying that sexism is in the eye of the beholder, but their own standards demonstrate that it is anyway.

The person who made that flowchart didn't mean to say that sexism is in the eye of the beholder. But her flowchart is still a perfect example of how any character whatsoever can be called sexist.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:12 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
So you agree with an argument that was made against something nobody ever said.

The amount of mental gymnastics and tortured logic some of you have to go through in order to make the basic "why are we even talking about sexism?!?!?" is pretty ridiculous but not unexpected, I suppose.


Well we certainly wouldn't want that. Rolling Eyes

sailorsarah never wrote:
why are we even talking about sexism?!?!?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:27 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Zac wrote:
So you agree with an argument that was made against something nobody ever said.

The amount of mental gymnastics and tortured logic some of you have to go through in order to make the basic "why are we even talking about sexism?!?!?" is pretty ridiculous but not unexpected, I suppose.


Well we certainly wouldn't want that. Rolling Eyes

sailorsarah never wrote:
why are we even talking about sexism?!?!?


Clearly not referring to her or anything she said. Did not really take that much reading comprehension to ~unlock the mystery~ of what I was referring to in my post.

But we're all talking past eachother at this point, so hey.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime
EireformContinent



Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 977
Location: Łódź/Poland (The Promised Land)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:26 am Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:

The bumbling idiot male action hero who's partnered with a more competent, flawless female partner, or just to mix it up a bit, the perfect female is the hero and the male is her bumbling inept sidekick.

Don't worry at the end it always turns that boy saves the day to hold male part of the audience by TV.

After a quick research among my favourite positions my theory of masculinity goes better- the most widespread way of stressing "strong" side of any character regardless of gender is showing it as "kickassing". Literature and some TV shows (usually historical, because they can't escape accounts about characters) are the only bastion of physically weak but influential characters. In films and most of TV shows (anime included) the strong people are usually presented as aggressive and offensive in the most offensive way. Even Emperor Palpatine and Yoda had to have sword fight, even if they presented not once that isn't their primary way of fighting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
arromdee



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 71
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:10 am Reply with quote
Zac: the exact words were something that nobody ever said, but the general idea that there 1) are feminist complaints about shows for reasons similar to the ones I gave, and 2) there are feminist complaints about Sailor Moon specifically, is absolutely true.

Of course you won't see many people making feminist complaints about Sailor Moon here; after all, they like the show. They just don't apply the same overly-strict standards to Sailor Moon that they would apply to shows they don't like.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shukero



Joined: 13 Feb 2012
Posts: 493
Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:54 pm Reply with quote
I love that you guys brought up morgan Webb, and xplay because before G4 bought out techtv, in the early days of xplay you could tell that Morgan knew her stuff because I think that she was forced to write her own scripts. (I could be wrong about this) But you could also tell because she would constantly make puns and really awesome jokes between 2 or more games. Also just the enthusiasm she had when reviewing the games was another way I figured she was real.

Now compare this to Olivia mun..... and well... to me she seems extremely fake. But that's just my opinion. What does everyone else think?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 678
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:27 pm Reply with quote
arromdee wrote:
Zac: the exact words were something that nobody ever said, but the general idea that there 1) are feminist complaints about shows for reasons similar to the ones I gave, and 2) there are feminist complaints about Sailor Moon specifically, is absolutely true.


What you're saying here is that self-described "feminists" do not share monolithic opinions about these things. However, so what? We can apply that to any school of thought.

In other words, congratulations: you have observed disagreement. This renders nothing moot. On the contrary, the natural and obligatory thing to do is to actually think about what's being said and judge who is more correct and why. This eye-of-the-beholder stuff is compelling only if we accept that every argument backed by a coherent thought is created equal, if we agree that everything is subjective. But that's preposterous.

As for what was said about Sailor Moon earlier, I would suggest that if the foundation if one's feminist philosophy is essentially rejecting "feminine traits" out of hand, it's built on sand. In and of itself that's extremely debatable since it sells certain virtues short, if that way of thinking even acknowledges them as such at all. And the key to equality and mutual respect is embracing differences, rather than denying their existence or dismissing them. It's contradictory for feminism to back a different incarnation of conformity.

SakechanBD wrote:
I don't think you have to be a gun-toting badass to be strong. You just have to be self-reliant.


Yep. This is key because when you get down to it, I'd suggest the point of "feminist" trends in popular culture is to endorse a simple and important concept: self-determination. The simple, basic freedom of individuals to answer such fundamental questions as "who are you?" and "what do you want?" for themselves.


Last edited by GWOtaku on Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:22 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cl-shojo



Joined: 04 Sep 2011
Posts: 70
Location: New York
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:27 pm Reply with quote
I've always considered Sana from Kodocha to be one of the best female characters in anime and manga - she's funny, spunky and strong while still being kind, unlike say, Tohru from Fruits Basket has no real personality beyond her kindness.

And I have to disagree with the comment about Hana Yori Dango - I don't think Tsukushi gets weaker as the series progresses - instead, she realizes she doesn't always have to have a 'balls to the walls' attitude, and even though she falls in love with the rich bully (Tsukasa), Tsukushi is still really strong because at the end of the series, which we see when spoiler[she's given the choice to leave her snobby school, she decides she wants to stay and truly overcome all of the odds against her]. Plus, they don't actually get married in the end of the manga spoiler[(although they do get engaged, which I loved)].

I think the discussion of different cultural values and Japan being behind in terms of feminism is interesting because I believe a lot of female fantasies include aggressive men, which extends beyond culture, in my opinion.[/b]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
arromdee



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 71
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:33 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:

In other words, congratulations: you have observed disagreement. This renders nothing moot.


Consider the question "what would the anime creators have to do to avoid having their work called sexist?"

The answer, except for certain very narrow categories of works, is "there is nothing they can do."

This is bad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 17 of 18

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group