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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Cecilthedarkknight_234, I agree with you about the virginity thing. Why should the sales of Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae o Boku-tachi wa Mada Shiranai. go down just because viewers thought that one fan-favourite girl might lose her virginity? Why should fans of Kannagi destroy their merchandise of the show just because the titular character once had a boyfriend in the thousand years she'd been alive? Yeah, it pisses me off too.
Yorozuya (whose post is now gone), as I said before, the deal works both ways. If she's a prize to Moritaka then he's a prize to her. I don't read the Manga but I do watch the Anime, maybe the two are different. I do know from what others have said that the Anime's first season focused more on the promise than the Manga did, which I think helps. The story is always going to have this stupid albatross around its neck, but I don't think it is a misogynist albatross. And can you explain where else in my post I highlighted misogyny? I thought I explained why the misogynistic bits weren't misoguny fairly well.
Oh, I know that. In the Hellsing world knights are titled 'Sir' irrespective of gender, which is actually a fair way to do it. I was just saying what I thought a militant feminist might say. It's the sort of stupid thing they'd probably point out.
Nice try, except that Muslim society is far more oppressive towards its women than Western society is. In the strip, one woman is wearing what she wants, while the other is wearing an outfit because that's the way she's been raised. But let's not get into religion.
You know, I actually acknowledge this. It is a problem. Normal feminists who simply want equality must hate militant feminists because the latter group gives them all a bad name. Any backlash caused by the militant feminists negatively impacts the hard work that the normal feminists have achieved. But I still reckon that none of the three Anime I mentioned are misogynist. It's just we have to judge misogyny on a case-by-case example, you can't claim that a woman who chooses to be a housewife is automatically weak or oppressed. ---------- As a guy who doesn't know much about feminism, the rule of thumb I go by is that feminism is about equal choice and equal opportunity. If a woman has the same opportunities as a man and chooses without coercion to be a stay-at-home mother, then her decision should be respected. I actually think a lot of Anime are very pro-women. You see a lot of women kicking a lot of arse in Anime. Unfortunately, too many titles have their women sporting skimpy outfits for the wrong reasons. If a female character is written such that she wants to wear a skimpy outfit then fine, that's her choice. But when a strong female character wears such outfits for no in-universe reason, it undermines the character. When I see fanservice done simply to entice viewers - male viewers - I can only shake my head in frustration. And of course, it is called fanservice for a reason, but that doesn't mean every act of nudity or wearing of skimpy clothing is automatically done for the benefit of the fans. The chance to ogle female characters (or male characters if you're female or gay) should ultimately be a perk, not the sole reason the show exists. But that's just me. |
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ABCBTom
 Posts: 183 |
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You bring up a good line of discussion, but I did want to clarify that I wasn't speaking solely in terms of fanservice, though that is a prevalent element. Much like the podcast participants, fanservice in its less egregious forms is pretty much harmless. For example, much of the show in Rainbow Gate, Rio's utility is completely defined by her being "lucky" and bringing "luck" to other people in the casino. And those other people were, by and large, men. She may have had an incredible talent, but it basically was used for nothing but serving men. Even in the end, with Rio ostensibly learning to care more about her own desires and not worrying about other people's needs first and foremost, she's the archetype of the completely nurturing selfless woman. Some people may view that as sexist. Heck, I view it as sexist. I'd be in denial not to. But I still enjoyed the show, silly trifle that it was. Enjoying something and knowing its problems aren't completely in opposition. Just own it. |
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wandering-dreamer
 Posts: 1733 |
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I remember the Princess Jellyfish episode mentioned, the one with what looks like date rape of a male character, and everywhere I went the fandom really hated the female character who pulled it off because yeah, that was date rape (thankfully minus the actual rape but the poor guy didn't even know that). Maybe the forums I was on were the only ones who had that reaction but it seemed like everyone was just as disturbed as if the genders had been reversed and really felt bad for the guy.
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sailorsarah
 Posts: 189 Location: Texas |
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Very interesting and informative podcast. I was also glad that Bamboo mentioned liking the Key shows. I really have a soft spot for Air and Clannad even though they do have those basic character archetypes. Somehow the shows are particularly enjoyable to me in spite of that. Also, the male protagonists are not as generic as most harem anime.
I'm also not really on the extreme end of the feminism scale. Most of the fanservice and such doesn't bother me. I'm a housewife, so I probably seem like the opposite of feminist to a lot of people, but the main idea behind feminism is equality and the ability to choose what you want to do in life no matter what that may be, and I love what I do, but maybe I wouldn't if it was my only option in life. The rape fantasy stuff is sort of a weird thing because it is basically fanservice for women that also objectifies women. For some reason I don't have a problem with it even though it would be reprehensible and illegal in real life. I guess in that case it is just important to be able to separate fact from fiction, so maybe it is pretty bad that that stuff is marketed to younger girls. I never read anything like that until I was an adult. |
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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Oy. It wasn't about burqa or the middle east or anything, it was just a play on the whole 'only the eyes' motif, a political cartoon to exaggerated things (since the average woman also doesn't walk around in a bikini) Though I suppose my fault for not predicting someone would probably specifically use the religion connotation of the outfit in choice rather than just look at it for the satire value. Use the second picture then. Or ignore both and just look at the issue itself: the whole "cover up, slut" mentlaity I see guys and even other girls throw to girls around school, while at the same time girls want the freedom to wear what they want without being labeled a "slut". The point was different people have different views.
Oh definitely. I can see both groups now "Shameless pandering to horny boys despite not being much fanservice at all" VS "How come a girl wanting to bang a lot of guys is wrong and sick yet we say nothing about guys who want to bang a lot of girls?" Personally, I don't try to look at a show as sexist or a female as a 'strong female character'. I just find stuff that's enjoyable. Anyway, as for characters, I present Ran Mouri from Detective Conan. On one hand, she's a good martial artist, able to beat up the common thug most of the time, sans them getting the drop on her or she just happens to be paralyzed by fear when put in a disturbing situation (as in the "Naniwa Serial Murderer" arc) because it's perfectly reasonable that just because she knows martial arts doesn't mean she should beat all the bad guys all the time and never be afraid, she does get scared crapless in certain cases (you would too if you saw dismembered heads nailed on the wall.. that's a bit of a different scenario than a simple purse snatcher) so she does end up being kidnapped/captured some times and needed to be rescued (the podcast mentioned this about action females being captured and needed rescuing by the male hero being 'fake' empowerment, which I disagree with, not everyone can be strong 100% of the time) Then on the other hand she's also very naive and forgiving, sometimes to the point of fault. I've seen people say they were completely disgusted with the way she waits patiently for Shinichi, the boy she likes, to return to her, rather than go try to find another man to date or be involved in and move on with her life. And then I see people say she's strong for having the patience to wait for the guy she loves and be understanding that his work as a detective keeps him away and it's important because he can save lives. Is this a 'strong female character'? Beats me, but I can safely say she's a complex character, and has more emotions and dynamics to her that I don't think she can be easily labeled as a "strong" or "weak" character, and that's what I like in anime. I try not to pigeon hole characters as a "strong female character" or a "weak one". I like a nice balance. Incidentally, one of my favorite episodes of Detective Conan is the episode Ran is forced to solve a case by herself when she suspects a man is planning to murder his wife and she's the only one who seems to believe it. Then you have Haibara, who's a whole 'nother case for female characters. Last edited by TitanXL on Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:24 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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ljaesch
Posts: 299 Location: Enumclaw, WA |
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I'm listening to the show right now, which I've been enjoying. Just wanted to comment on a couple of things:
1) "Did you know that people are meaner on the Internet than they are online?" (it was something to that effect): I can answer, "Heck, yes!" This is a phenomenon I discovered in the mid-1990s, back when I was hanging out on local BBSes. One in particular would host monthly get-togethers for users to meet up in person. There were some users who were absolute jerks on the BBS, but when you saw those users at a get-together, they would be quiet, stand-offish, or non-confrontational. Unfortunately, this phenomenon really hasn't changed over the past 15 years. 2) Posing as a different gender online and getting a different reaction: Again, I know this one firsthand from my BBS days in the mid-1990s. I conducted an experiment on one of the local BBSes I was on by creating an account with a male persona. I definitely noticed that when I was on the BBS as that male persona account, I was treated differently than when I was on the BBS as my regular account (which was known to be a female). |
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Penguin_Factory
 Posts: 732 Location: Ireland |
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How does it add to a creative work to have the creators bigotry and prejudice expressed front and center? If a creative work objectifies women that's just going to make it more repulsive, not more creatively interesting. Or to go the way of analogy, smearing faeces all over the Mona Lisa might theoretically make it more interesting, but it isn't going to improve the artistry of the piece.
Are you seriously trying to suggest that creative works aren't interesting or inspired if they don't reflect the creator's narrow-minded prejudices? If you want to put this to the test, go read some Orson Scott Card books and see if they became more or less enjoyable to read after he started expressing his raging homophobia and militaristic jingoism in them.
I believe you're getting into the censorship fallacy here, ie equating criticism of something with an attempt to silence it. My personal wish (and I think most anti-sexism people would agree) is that sexism and exclusion of women (a bigger problem in video games admittedly) would simply become far less of an issue. It's always going to be there and people have the right to put whatever bigoted views they want into their work, but there's no reason it has to be common to the point of near ubiquitousness. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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Considering the discussion off "you're not otaku enough", I don't think that's sexist, I think it's that ONLINE fans (of anything) are ****s. Using just myself as an example, I've told zac that and other ways he should be a "real fan" at LEAST several times and I know he's a dude.
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corinthian
Posts: 264 |
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Haven't even listened to it yet, but based on the topic I'm going to love it. Thanks for tackling this topic, ANN!
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Daryl Surat is right. If you're functional, you're not otaku. Take it as a compliment. You shouldn't aspire to otakudom.
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RyanSaotome
 Posts: 4210 Location: Towson, Maryland |
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What I want to know is how people here aren't considering that entire Boys Love genre sexist, while they focus on the stuff with female characters only. Or the shoujo shows where the guy is nothing but a servant for the girl, and often has him shirtless.
It goes both ways, but in the end I don't see why it matters. This is entertainment, its not trying to be politically correct. If you don't like it, just go watch a different anime. |
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ABCBTom
Posts: 183 |
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This is actually all touched on by the podcast. |
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RyanSaotome
Posts: 4210 Location: Towson, Maryland |
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My bad, I'm not in a place where I can currently listen to it so I was just going by the comments. Glad to hear they did cover it though. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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While this was very fun to listen to (and informative), I have to say that the fact that it went into the "Pandering is sexist" trope thig aggravated me.
Portraying a character as attractive and sexy is not sexist. It's called having a hot character. In a medium where nearly everyone is generically cute, this is bound to happen. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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As a Hellsing fan, I want to make the whole "Sir integra" thing a bit clearer. The first person to call her "Sir" was Alucard after he awakened in the very beginning of the series. The reason for this is that all the former leaders of Hellsing were male, and thus were were referred as the knighted title of "Sir". (Women who are knighted are called "Dame".) So Alucard was used to addressing all his masters as "Sir". But Integra was not supposed to be the leader of Hellsing, her uncle was, until her father changed his mind on his deathbed.
Also, I believe the whole reason Sir Integra dresses like a man and smokes cigars is because she is the leader of an all male organization. She wants to be taken seriously by them so she doesn't want to appear too feminine. Plus, it takes people who've never met her by surprise. As for the whole sexism thing, it usually doesn't bother me much unless it's extremely blatant and/or disturbing. Guess it's because I'm older and I don't expect my entertainment to always be politically correct. |
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