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Sewingrose



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 579
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:14 pm Reply with quote
I've always been more of a manga fan then an anime fan, for series that I like I will almost always try them out first with the manga. Though, admittedly I am a huge book person, as were my parents who raised me, and I inherited their struggle for always needing new shelf space for books.

It might be my ADHD talking, but I hate how slowly a lot of series seem to go when it's animated, in the manga everything feels more tight story-wise. There are of course exceptions, like I've tried to read the Dragon Ball manga, but that show was my first real anime title and I can only stand it animated, even if it is insanely slow.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:17 pm Reply with quote
504NOSON2 wrote:


I think, rather convincingly, substantiates the opinion that anime has a monopoly on all those qualities listed by Mr. Beveridge. C'mon, people. Let's be real, here. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. No one is saying there aren't. But, the general rule still exists.


Trusts me, I see a bright future for modern cartoons with a ton of talent. I can't say the same thing about anime. More and more often I see anime increasingly trying to pander to the exact same people. Whenever someone tries to break out of the mold such as Redline it inevitably fails.
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm Reply with quote
Do you mind passing me whatever your smoking, bro.
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:38 pm Reply with quote
504NOSON2 wrote:
Chagen46 wrote:
The weeaboo is strong with that article.

Never mind that half of what it says is completely bullshit.


Logical Fallacy Alert!!!

...And the Ignoratio elenchi is strong in your opening statement, as it does nothing in the way of refuting the validity of Chris' points. Try giving a point-by-point expostulation of what makes every number, 9-1, "complete bullshit", in your opinion.

9: Complete Stories

Except when they aren't. Granted, this particular argument is one of the major reasons I favor anime over western animation, as the latter is far more episodic in nature and as such has more limitations on how grand of a story it can tell, but there are plenty of anime that simply end abruptly or include a hastily written conclusion to tie off a series that has reams of source material available but wasn't slated for a long enough run to cover it. And it's not as though episodic series are inherently inferior, which is the implication in this entry.

8: Depth of Character

For every Evangelion or Cowboy Bebop, there are a dozen boilerplate harem comedies or shoujo angst-fests featuring characters that have no more personality than whatever fetish they represent.

7: Depth of Story

This seems to me to be related to #9, as serial stories often have more opportunity than episodic ones to flesh out their plot. The way Chris presents this entry reads mainly that because anime is not just children's shows, writers can go into more serious topics. Or they can make silly shows about high schoolers having crushes but not the courage to confess. Plenty of anime are just about wacky misunderstandings or using the power of friendship to defeat evil.

6: Relationships Treated Realistically

No. Most romantic relationships in anime are highly idealized and unrealistic. In real life, girls don't fight each other over who can make the best scrambled eggs for the milquetoast man that they both have their eyes on. Girls don't fall out of the sky and immediately decide the first man they set eyes on is their true love or fiance or something.

5: Even When It’s for Children, It’s Not for Children

Here, mainly it's Chris overplaying the strengths for more credit than they deserve. I really think claiming Pokemon is secretly mature is stretching credibility, and I don't recall that many scenes from Cardcaptor Sakura that were un-sugarcoated (yeah, her mom's dead, but still looking over her as a ghost that her big brother can see sometimes), but I will grant that anime is less concerned with being overly protective of children than western animation.

4: Adult Animation

Hentai is generally the single weakest genre of anime in terms of storytelling, character, and often animation quality. Also, it's often far more disgustingly sexist than just about anything else. Sure, they appeal to a wide variety of fetishes, but I hope you like rape, because it's pretty common in even the sweet, romantic ones.

3: Culture/History is Important

I think it's less that history is important and more that it's open game. If western cartoons did to western history what anime did to the Sengoku period, or the Three Kingdoms period of China, people would pitch a fit. It's also somewhat amusing that the entry claims that such stories were "done with exacting detail" while using Le Chevalier D'eon as the image, as that show was rather artistic with its interpretations of prominent historical figures.

2: The Budget is on the Screen

The comparison is made to South Park, which is disingenuous because South Park was originally made quite cheaply with characters made of cardboard cut-out shapes, and changing the style after they were popular enough to merit a larger budget would be out of place. Also, this is in general, laughable as anime is well known for relying on cost saving corner cutting for action scenes. The immersive backgrounds can be so impressive because they are used for slow pans with limited motion. Western animation usually has a higher frame rate than anime, and so while usually less detailed, it as also generally more fluid.

1: Hayao Miyazaki

Seems kinda cheap to pull an individual as one of your reasons in a list like this, but I see the point here.


Chris Beveridge is focusing on the high points, rather than addressing the multitude of crap that also exists.


Last edited by Dorcas_Aurelia on Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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504NOSON2
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Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:45 pm Reply with quote
C'mon, Charred. You're gonna have to convince me. Exactly, what modern Western cartoons are at the forefront of animation's zenith? And just about every respectable, reputable reviewer who's reviewed Red Line has said it was exhilarating. So, what was "fail" about it?

Concerning pandering, just about every theme or concept has been done before. Nothing is truly "original". So, what many perceive as a overly repetitive usage of ideas is simply just a concept, that was once original, manifesting itself again. Admittedly, pandering does take place, though. But, it's much less a lack of Japanese talent, and more so an unfortunate business model that's the result of a declining market and a need to cater to a niche audience; an audience that actually generates revenue through purchasing miscellaneous merchandise, DVDs, BDs, Drama CDs, etc.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:50 pm Reply with quote
504NOSON2 wrote:
Exactly, what modern Western cartoons are at the forefront of animation's zenith?


Everything Pixar does. Although I'm not sure what "the forefront of a zenith" is supposed to be. Pick one of those words and it'll describe what you're trying to describe.

Also, arguing in favor of anime as though it's a partisan political issue for you rather than simply an artform you love and appreciate never, ever leads to a constructive or even very interesting conversation.
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050795



Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Posts: 230
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:24 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I don't buy anime because I like the packaging I buy anime to support the industry so more anime can be brought over here. Maybe just maybe we can put enough money that the Japanese will notice this and make an anime that doesn't star cute girls wearing cute clothes.


I buy it for the same reasons you do, honestly I'm not someone who pays a lot of attention to sound, picture, or package quality; However the fact that someone like me, who doesn't care/pay attention to it, noticed such a big difference in the first place says a lot. What I was saying was if they are going to be charging a lot of money at least they are putting in an effort to make it a better quality, and not just slapping a disc in a cheap case that falls apart if you blow on it the wrong way.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3819
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:32 pm Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
504NOSON2 wrote:
Chagen46 wrote:
The weeaboo is strong with that article.

Never mind that half of what it says is completely bullshit.


Logical Fallacy Alert!!!

...And the Ignoratio elenchi is strong in your opening statement, as it does nothing in the way of refuting the validity of Chris' points. Try giving a point-by-point expostulation of what makes every number, 9-1, "complete bullshit", in your opinion.


SNIP

Chris Beveridge is ignoring Sturgeon's law when it comes to anime and focusing on the high points, rather than addressing the 90% of crap that also exists.


You do bring up some interesting points I might add to the discussion. Since it's late I will cover only one point that you addressed complete stories. I'm a sucker for romance/harem sereis despite dropping most like .99cents pack of hot dogs from wal-mart. However The biggest problem is that they don't have complete endings anymore or none that I can think of in recent years.

I will take OKamisan for example, the way it was handheld by j.c. staff was just meh but they did do toradora.. However it's just the fact on they chose it to end it by saying "well I don't hate you" brought the show down from a 3.5 to 2 from one episode alone. Why the hell is it so hard to get a proper ending where the male lead says I LOVE YOU, SHE LOVES HIM.

I don't care how sappy it would be at this point in time "hell let fireworks go off and slow motion kissing" it's just become so re daunt to never complete series anymore. Love hina despite aging like sh** still has a proper ending with Ketairo marrying Naru... Is that so hard?? Okay..rant is over...
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:16 am Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
I don't buy anime because I like the packaging I buy anime to support the industry so more anime can be brought over here. Maybe just maybe we can put enough money that the Japanese will notice this and make an anime that doesn't star cute girls wearing cute clothes.


Well, ignoring the blatant lie that there's no anime out there that isn't "cute girls in cute clothes" for a second, I can say you can save your money and stop because it won't work.

A 30 dollar boxset from Funi for 13 episodes would equate to 2300 Yen. Meanwhile, a 12 episode series comes out on usually 6 disks in Japan, and can go for 7200 Yen each.

So basically America contributes 2300 Yen (ignoring any cut Funimation gets) while Japan contributes around 43,200 per series.

America sales are never going to 'convince' Japan of anything, sorry to say. You'd need about 20 people in the US to buy a series for every one person in Japan, which I somehow don't think is going to happen.

Japan is Japan's market, not America or anyone else. What the US or Europe thinks doesn't mean anything, short of a company like Marvel or DC ponying up some money to do a commission like the Marvel anime or Gotham Knight.

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Chris Beveridge is ignoring Sturgeon's law when it comes to anime and focusing on the high points, rather than addressing the 90% of crap that also exists.


You realize 'Sturgeon's Law" doesn't exist, right? It's not a scientific formula, it's a joke saying. Using it in an actual debate is pretty dumb.

Unless you want to actually try and prove it, in which case go ahead. But until you do, or at least stop using it in a debate, I don't see why anyone should actually take you seriously.

Also, just because it's my area of expertise.

Quote:
I really think claiming Pokemon is secretly mature is stretching credibility


I don't see how it's not, at least in comparison. The first movie alone deals with some heavy philosophical and existential issues (all removed in the dub, naturally) you can read about here. Of course you also got the more human, down to earth maturity, like Hikari's character growth over the Diamond & Pearl series and how she grows up and stops being a sheltered little girl, and I suppose Shinji's outlook on life and the way he was raised in comparison to his brother Reiji) Plus you have Digimon's a kid show as well, and damned if they didn't dive head first into some serious crap, and various other stuff you can name.
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504NOSON2
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Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:10 am Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:

9: Complete Stories

Except when they aren't. Granted, this particular argument is one of the major reasons I favor anime over western animation, as the latter is far more episodic in nature and as such has more limitations on how grand of a story it can tell, but there are plenty of anime that simply end abruptly or include a hastily written conclusion to tie off a series that has reams of source material available but wasn't slated for a long enough run to cover it. And it's not as though episodic series are inherently inferior, which is the implication in this entry.


This argument is moot because, as I noted, he never stated that all Western animated works were episodic; just that the volume of them exceeds their Japanese counterparts. You even note a preference for a continuous storyline yourself, as opposed to an episodic, due to its inherent possession of limitations in the scope and complexity of the storyline. This indicates a grave constitutional inferiority within the episodic format.

Quote:
8: Depth of Character

For every Evangelion or Cowboy Bebop, there are a dozen boilerplate harem comedies or shoujo angst-fests featuring characters that have no more personality than whatever fetish they represent.


While comparative ratios are needed to accurately make a "for every..." argument, this is inane, as it raises the fact that there is significantly much more diversity within anime, when compared with Western animation. Harem comedies and shoujo "angst-fests" are genres among a plethora of others. Where as Western cartoons typically utilize superhero/wacky stand-alone segment/pop culture reference-laced comedy models. I have yet to see an Evangelion or Cowboy Bebop come from the West.

Quote:
7: Depth of Story

This seems to me to be related to #9, as serial stories often have more opportunity than episodic ones to flesh out their plot. The way Chris presents this entry reads mainly that because anime is not just children's shows, writers can go into more serious topics. Or they can make silly shows about high schoolers having crushes but not the courage to confess. Plenty of anime are just about wacky misunderstandings or using the power of friendship to defeat evil.


Even in episodic format, anime far, far surpasses the likes of Western cartoons in execution of plot/story (i.e. Kino's Journey, Mushi-shi, Cowboy Bebop). Even the series about "wacky misunderstandings or using the power of friendship to defeat evil" much deeper story lines and back stories, and are generally much better written (Azumanga Daioh is a perfect example of a genius "wacky" series).

Quote:
6: Relationships Treated Realistically

No. Most romantic relationships in anime are highly idealized and unrealistic. In real life, girls don't fight each other over who can make the best scrambled eggs for the milquetoast man that they both have their eyes on. Girls don't fall out of the sky and immediately decide the first man they set eyes on is their true love or fiance or something.


I think the latter half of your above post was kind of silly, because it's anime we're talking about, here; it's obviously going to have physical improbabilities/impossibilities and highly unlikely occurrences. It's the nature of the relationships (the actual interactions and emotions) that are presented as realistic -- 5 Centimeters Per Second, anyone? -- not the circumstances that prompted the individuals' initial meetings. And while eggs may or may not be involved, you must have been home schooled if you think girls don't fight over boys.

Quote:
5: Even When It’s for Children, It’s Not for Children

Here, mainly it's Chris overplaying the strengths for more credit than they deserve. I really think claiming Pokemon is secretly mature is stretching credibility, and I don't recall that many scenes from Cardcaptor Sakura that were un-sugarcoated (yeah, her mom's dead, but still looking over her as a ghost that her big brother can see sometimes), but I will grant that anime is less concerned with being overly protective of children than western animation.


Anecdotally, I've known a number of intelligent adults who have professed an affinity with the Pokemon franchise, citing its messages of ethics, individuality, and well-written stories, particularly in the movies Jirachi Wish Maker and Mewtwo returns, as reasons. But yes, what is deemed acceptable for children in Japan greatly contrasts with the situation in North America. So, you're in agreement with one, so far.

Quote:
4: Adult Animation

Hentai is generally the single weakest genre of anime in terms of storytelling, character, and often animation quality. Also, it's often far more disgustingly sexist than just about anything else. Sure, they appeal to a wide variety of fetishes, but I hope you like rape, because it's pretty common in even the sweet, romantic ones.


Hentai most certainly isn't a trove of riveting storytelling, but there are well-written H titles in existence. Sexfriend and Sex and Love Story are two examples. Regardless of any subjective perception of their nature, his point was that they actually exist. In abundance, in fact. Where as, in the West, the selection is extremely scarce to say the least. Oh, and there certainly is a segment of the human population that is sexually aroused by scenes of rape or "ravishment", as its advocates prefer. Plus, try looking back in the old "Hey, Answerman!" archives, especially from the mid-2000s when Zac wrote it; you'll read descriptions and defenses for rape, lolicon, and even justifications for real children being raped to protect pedophiles' freedom. Good stuff.

Quote:
3: Culture/History is Important

I think it's less that history is important and more that it's open game. If western cartoons did to western history what anime did to the Sengoku period, or the Three Kingdoms period of China, people would pitch a fit. It's also somewhat amusing that the entry claims that such stories were "done with exacting detail" while using Le Chevalier D'eon as the image, as that show was rather artistic with its interpretations of prominent historical figures.


I personally think there just isn't an interest in historical depictions in American cartoons among the public, at large. I've read the statistics concerning American's ignorance of their own history and watched the videos of Americans being quizzed and failing in horror. While the Japanese tend to have this computer-like storage of medium/high cultural trivia knowledge and the Japanese academic career rests on the rote memorization of such facts and figures. That's my hypothesis.

Quote:
2: The Budget is on the Screen

The comparison is made to South Park, which is disingenuous because South Park was originally made quite cheaply with characters made of cardboard cut-out shapes, and changing the style after they were popular enough to merit a larger budget would be out of place. Also, this is in general, laughable as anime is well known for relying on cost saving corner cutting for action scenes. The immersive backgrounds can be so impressive because they are used for slow pans with limited motion. Western animation usually has a higher frame rate than anime, and so while usually less detailed, it as also generally more fluid.


I'll agree, only when it applies to movies, though. Japanese animated television shows completely reverse that role. Hence, his argument still stands.

Quote:
1: Hayao Miyazaki

Seems kinda cheap to pull an individual as one of your reasons in a list like this, but I see the point here.


Using a master of animated work as his trump card... sinister and corrupt, I know.


Quote:
Chris Beveridge is ignoring Sturgeon's law when it comes to anime and focusing on the high points, rather than addressing the 90% of crap that also exists.


Sturgeon's law itself is ignorable, given the fact that the "90%" claim has no scientific basis. But if we must use that adage, then it must be something like 98% for American cartoons.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now you, Zac. What I meant by the "forefront of animation's zenith" are animated works that are on the horizons of current technology taking animation as far as it can go. Now, if you think about that for a second, it makes lots of sense and I think I did an okay job of describing my ideas.

Concerning Pixar, I'll agree that yes, their "budget is on the screen". But, Pixar almost exclusively does feature-length films and shorts. And, like I stated above, beyond films, American animation tends to be inferior when compared to its Japanese counterpart; videlicet, TV shows. Plus, when I said "animation", I mostly had predominately 2D-based works in mind. Not that it matters, much.

Finally, when I engage in discourse, with an individual taking a contrary position, I expect them to substantiate their arguments intelligently and provide reasonable basis, and they should, rightfully, expect the same of me. I'm passionate about it, but I'm not going just except baseless one/two/three-liner statements or unfounded claims, like the ones made earlier. I'm quite sure recommendation threads that descend into lists are interesting to many users (seeing as how they were so prevalent before "teh rule" was instated), but you don't allow them; because they don't go into detail and provide absolutely no base for their opinions, point of views, preferences, whatever.
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:21 am Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
You realize 'Sturgeon's Law" doesn't exist, right? It's not a scientific formula, it's a joke saying. Using it in an actual debate is pretty dumb.

Unless you want to actually try and prove it, in which case go ahead. But until you do, or at least stop using it in a debate, I don't see why anyone should actually take you seriously.

Also, just because it's my area of expertise.

Reworded to meet your exacting standards. Because the article I responded to was so scientific (spoiler: this isn't a scientific debate, it's an artistic one). It's not even that I completely disagree with the idea that anime has a number of strengths that western animation is lacking, it's that the link 504NOSON2 provided treated all anime as though it were refined gold compared to the excrement that is western animation that I made such a statement.

Quote:
Quote:
I really think claiming Pokemon is secretly mature is stretching credibility


I don't see how it's not, at least in comparison. The first movie alone deals with some heavy philosophical and existential issues (all removed in the dub, naturally) you can read about here. Of course you also got the more human, down to earth maturity, like Hikari's character growth over the Diamond & Pearl series and how she grows up and stops being a sheltered little girl, and I suppose Shinji's outlook on life and the way he was raised in comparison to his brother Reiji) Plus you have Digimon's a kid show as well, and damned if they didn't dive head first into some serious crap, and various other stuff you can name.

Maybe I shouldn't have brought up Pokemon, as I only ever watched the first season, and that was edited version for U.S. television. Digimon wasn't one of the examples provided in the article I was responding to, and I wouldn't consider refuting that as such an example, anyway.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:25 am Reply with quote
As Zac stated this argument is pointless because nothing anyone says would ever let you admit that maybe people in the west can make good animation too.
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:48 am Reply with quote
Quote:
...even justifications for real children being raped to protect pedophiles' freedom.

Source please.
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504NOSON2
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:57 am Reply with quote
My pleasure.

Steroid... man, I wish he was still around these parts. What genius!
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Surrender Artist



Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 3264
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:10 am Reply with quote
I don't really understand adversarial discussions of Japanese versus Western animation; it never occurs to me that there's a conflict to be fought and resolved, but I also can't really understand strict ordinal rankings of things or comparisons generally. They're just not part of my framework for assessing things. Besides, they aren't really serious rivals. Certainly one might be trading time spent on one for time that might have been spent on the other, but it isn't a particularly severe limitation.

The other problem I have is that it ends up as an exercise in rendering judgement rather than in understanding. Understanding is hard and ambiguous; judging is easy and emotionally satisfying in the way that a hot pocket can technically satiate hunger. The problem is that it's boring and nobody learns much. These arguments aren't about proving some thesis or establishing a valuable fact; they're emotional pissing contests for the greater glory of our sacred feelings and possibly our precious bodily fluids!

I wonder if the intensity of a person's interest in trying to prove the judgement that anime is superior is motivated by either the degree of that person's disaffection from his own culture which is plausible given that more anime fans are 'socially marginal' than are people generally, or simply by the f**k you mom! mentality of the very young people who are such a substantial share of anime fans. Either is a pretty simplified model, apt to have exceptions, but I find both more compelling orderings of the horse and cart

In the end, it might just be a misguided line of squabble. It seems to assume that there is a need or imperative in western studios producing dramatic animation, but I don't know that there is. It could be, given the extant talent, production resources and infrastructure that it would be pointless and inefficient for western studios to produce dramatic animation. Rather than some condemnation to inferiority in some asinine cultural war, the present situation might be the most rational, optimal outcome. It might be faulty in absolute terms, but also as good as it can get within the limits of the market.

steroid wrote:
I think it's worth it to have children raped to have the free communication of sexual material.


Oh... man... that... that's the last thing that I'm reading before I go to bed tonight. The dreams I'm going to have...


Last edited by Surrender Artist on Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:26 am; edited 2 times in total
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