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Frankly, I hate Viz and I don't want to see another cent go to them from me.

So what do I do? I buy the original manga from Little Tokyo's bookstore and I import the Japanese DVDs from CDJapan, however, to understand what I bought, I use scanlations and fansubs. Where does that put me? Does that make me a "thief"? Spending over 2,000 on DVD boxsets and over 300 on Japanese manga (and artbook).

Oh I also buy Japanese merchandise, like CDs which cost about 70-80 dollars for the CD boxsets on CDJapan and even bought their concert DVD at double the price because I had to special order it since Japan does not ship it outside their region.

And I actually do have 3 copies of the Viz version of Reborn! (3 copies of all 16 volumes) Every bookstore I go to, I bought all the remaining volumes in hopes to see it come back, but to no avail.

That's when I decided my purchases really only support Viz, who I think translate the manga terribly. I would much rather support Akira Amano directly with the Japanese release.

Asterisk-CGY wrote:

Fact is this model, whatever it may be, is feasible, and will happen. What won't happen is a consumer that is willing to pay for a degraded service that was provided better elsewhere.

Probably the best point I've read on this thread.

Although some may purchase the dilapidated service on the principle of helping the industry/mangaka, the majority of fans won't as the alternative service is free. That's just economics.

Kazemon15 wrote:

Frankly, I hate Viz and I don't want to see another cent go to them from me.

So what do I do? I buy the original manga from Little Tokyo's bookstore and I import the Japanese DVDs from CDJapan, however, to understand what I bought, I use scanlations and fansubs. Where does that put me? Does that make me a "thief"? Spending over 2,000 on DVD boxsets and over 300 on Japanese manga (and artbook).

As far as respecting the copyright rights of the creators, its the unauthorized copying and distribution that is trampling their rights. As long as you don't copy and distribute the scanlations and fansubs, I don't see anything wrong in what you are describing.

Of course, that's why "stealing" is a misleading word for describing it. Its not the "taking away" that tramples on the creator's rights, its the copying and distribution without respecting their right to say "yes" or "no".

agila61 wrote:

Polycell wrote:

Quote:

Do as you will, but don't try to give me the sob story about something not available in your region. You're a thief because you're not financially supporting the creator.

So everybody who buys second-hand is a thief?

The difference is that if it is a legit copy, the original purchase of that specific second hand copy did support the creator.

The argument was that acquiring a copy without supporting the creator is stealing - my point was to show how asinine that thought was(proving too much). At any rate, the first sale doctrine exists because there's no copying involved.

Quote:

It may be called filesharing, but its not really sharing, its filepublishing. If it really was filesharing, if only one person at a time could use the scanlation, it would have far less potential to interfere with the market.

And yet people share stories all the time.

Polycell wrote:

agila61 wrote:

Polycell wrote:

Quote:

Do as you will, but don't try to give me the sob story about something not available in your region. You're a thief because you're not financially supporting the creator.

So everybody who buys second-hand is a thief?

The difference is that if it is a legit copy, the original purchase of that specific second hand copy did support the creator.

The argument was that acquiring a copy without supporting the creator is stealing - my point was to show how asinine that thought was.

It remains the case that the copy sold as a the used book did support the creator, when it was original purchased, and the copy downloaded from a scanlation torrent never did.

You're raising the question of how many times its sale supported the creator, but "0 times" is "never", which is qualitatively different than "1 time". Infinite "0 times" never add up to anything. Enough "1 time" can add up to something quite substantial.

Copying and distributing bootlegs is "like theft" in certain respects, but different on in enough other respects that its not worth using the analogy, since it allows defenders of bootlegging to divert the conversation into whether or not "its really like theft".

lol I laugh at people trying to defend stealing Viz titles because of spoilers. Here is an idea, make a topic on a forums that only allows discussion up to the where the English version is at, ever thought of that? Avoid spoiler sites, too much work for you? I'm sorry I didn't realize the internet should cater to you. Don't think you should have to pay because its 2 weeks old? I'm guessing you have bought a movie, video game, or comic at some point in your life that was more then 2 weeks old and didn't complain. You think you have a right to read manga the same day as Japanese people? Please tell me where that is written. You can still go to wiki's even if WSJ is 2 weeks behind just be careful. I read The Walking Dead through graphic novels instead of monthly issues and I still go to the wiki. Yes I have come across some spoilers but they have been very minor and usually are stuff I saw coming.

Brian, in your response to the first question...well said!! I was nodding in agreement as read through the various points in your answer.

Also, as a fan of the GITS franchise, and especially the movies, I found the information you provided in response to the second question quite interesting. Cheers.

Polycell wrote:

False equivalence. Obtaining an unauthorized copy doesn't deny a copy to the distributor.

It denies a sale to the creator. As far as I'm concerned, you are trying to get something for free that you are not authorized to get for free. It may not be stealing as defined by the law, but it's stealing as defined by the dictionary.

It bothers me that we have a generation growing up that thinks just because they can't feel bits and bytes that it is perfectly okay to take those bits and bytes even when they don't have permission to.

You can run around claiming it's okay by a technicality (it's a copy, not the original! or I wouldn't have bought it anyway!) but it comes down to if not enough of those bits and bytes get purchased, then someone is out of a job. I don't exactly feel like screwing over some poor mangaka who can't control his publisher's policies.

Polycell wrote:

So everybody who buys second-hand is a thief?

No, because the creator got money for the original sale.

Hmm, first time reading answerman; and I gotta say fascinating read. In my personal opinion, I think that SJ Alpha is just the test phase for something bigger.

If they get more people to sign up for the more popular manga in a digital format than they could with a printed one, it would make sense for them to start adding more and more to the digital version so that they would see even more profitability.

I've been an employee in the printing industry for sometime now, and I can understand why these companies would like to move from paper to digital; and I can explain along the way.

The main issue here is price; and not very many people can understand what I mean by that. There are significantly more expenses in making a viable magazine than people realize. 1) First thing is your stock; (or in normal terms - what is the product going to be printed on... in this case PAPER) there are several hundreds of thousands of different "Stocks" (or papers) that can be used to print a magazine with. Some will be thicker than others & some will hold up to water better than others. The better and thicker the paper; the more expensive it is. 2) The second thing that needs to be worried about is the layout of the magazine (or in normal terms - how things are laid out inside and outside the magazine) If any of this work needs to be done or corrected by a printing company, the more in the end it will cost the consumer. (VIZ in this case) 3) The cost of printing - Now here is where it gets difficult to judge even for me; who's a printer. There are several different machines that can be used to complete a magazine; there are some that do EVERYTHING in 1 go; and there are some that only print the magazine itself. Depending on how many times the printed product needs to be transferred to a new machine, the more it will cost VIZ to complete it. So lets take a look shall we? First you need to print the magazine; thats #1, then you need to fold the product down to size, thats #2, then you need to trim the product, that's #3, then you can either glue which is called "perfect bind" or Staple which is called "saddle-stitch" to attach all the pages together, which is #4. AGAIN though some machines can do these all at once, which should be bringing savings back to the customer (VIZ) but you also have to pay the people running these machines, and the people that supervise the shipping of the magazines to the stores.

Now that I've gone through this long winded and probably boring speech (sorry about that) Lets get back on topic; what I'm trying to say is, that by going digital, VIZ can cut out A LOT of expenses that were originally going to printing plants and that now can (hopefully) be going towards getting approval from licenser(s) and artists to come digital with Viz.

I really hope that this becomes a big hit and that everything goes digital, if not just for the ease of use and retrieval, but for the common sense of if it costs only $1, and you are supporting the artists by doing it, and it's easier to use than torrents or IRC, then most anime fans will most likely buy it. Look at what apple did for the music industry! I'm not saying that things are perfect on that end, but more people started to buy music @ $0.99 because it was way easier and what everyone would agree to be pretty inexpensive.

That's my thoughts on this! Hope some people learned something in the process! Razz

kushiel wrote:

Polycell wrote:

So everybody who buys second-hand is a thief?

No, because the creator got money for the original sale.

But the purchaser of the used copy isn't supporting the creator at all, which falls under your blanket statement "You're a thief because you're not financially supporting the creator". All I've done is shown your claim doesn't even allow for the first-sale doctrine; obvious backpedaling won't change the preposterousness of the statement.

Quote:

Polycell wrote:

False equivalence. Obtaining an unauthorized copy doesn't deny a copy to the distributor.

It denies a sale to the creator. As far as I'm concerned, you are trying to get something for free that you are not authorized to get for free. It may not be stealing as defined by the law, but it's stealing as defined by the dictionary.

First off, far from every download represents a lost sale - a number are from people who would never buy it in the first place, lack the wherewithal to do so or will go out and buy it because they liked what they saw; you can't know. Second, nothing in the definition you linked includes copyright infringement(it's just slander and libel by Hollywood - same as calling infringers pirates).

Quote:

It bothers me that we have a generation growing up that thinks just because they can't feel bits and bytes that it is perfectly okay to take those bits and bytes even when they don't have permission to.

How is that anything new? All that's changed is that doing so's easier.

Quote:

You can run around claiming it's okay by a technicality (it's a copy, not the original! or I wouldn't have bought it anyway!) but it comes down to if not enough of those bits and bytes get purchased, then someone is out of a job. I don't exactly feel like screwing over some poor mangaka who can't control his publisher's policies.

That's how it is in every business - it's still the company's responsibility to entice enough people to purchase the product that benefits them; if the market prefers the unauthorized or used product, that's a sign they're not doing it very well.

kushiel wrote:

No, because the creator got money for the original sale.

Funny, because Gamestop is one of the most hated entities by video game developers because they focus the majority of their store on used game sales, none of which make it back to them. Anytime you go into a Gamestop, they push you buy a used instead of new when you take it up to the counter. So that employee just cost the developers a sale so Gamestop got 100% of the profit from that sale.

It's why a lot of them are pushing towards digital distribution; no used sales and they can cut off the cancerous mass that is Gamestop. Of course Gamestop has other methods to circumvent this (threatening to not stock the console versions of games, for example)

Luckily we have the video game industry to compare to, which has had to deal with Gamestop for the past decade after they became the monopoly and make their profit from used games. To them, used sales are just as bad as piracy, if not worse, because at least there's no smoke and mirrors on piracy being 'legal', while used sales are 100% legal and there's nothing they can do to stop it.

Or look at it this way, if you willingly go to a store/ebay/Amazon, it's almost a 100% chance you were going to buy it and pay money. So when you get a used, you know for sure they lost a sale. Some broke college student torrenting it is only a "maybe" on the "they lost a sale" chart.

TitanXL wrote:

kushiel wrote:

No, because the creator got money for the original sale.

Funny, because Gamestop is one of the most hated entities by video game developers because they focus the majority of their store on used game sales, none of which make it back to them. Anytime you go into a Gamestop, they push you buy a used instead of new when you take it up to the counter. So that employee just cost the developers a sale so Gamestop got 100% of the profit from that sale.

It's why a lot of them are pushing towards digital distribution; no used sales and they can cut off the cancerous mass that is Gamestop. Of course Gamestop has other methods to circumvent this (threatening to not stock the console versions of games, for example)

Luckily we have the video game industry to compare to, which has had to deal with Gamestop for the past decade after they became the monopoly and make their profit from used games. To them, used sales are just as bad as piracy, if not worse, because at least there's no smoke and mirrors on piracy being 'legal', while used sales are 100% legal and there's nothing they can do to stop it.

Or look at it this way, if you willingly go to a store/ebay/Amazon, it's almost a 100% chance you were going to buy it and pay money. So when you get a used, you know for sure they lost a sale. Some broke college student torrenting it is only a "maybe" on the "they lost a sale" chart.

I see where you are coming from with the gamestop regard, but I must add one thing when it comes to digital distro; Everyone knows Stream right? It primarily started out as a way to catalog all of your titles, which could then be used by valve to see what titles everyone was buying for internal use; but then (as the story goes) it was converted into a digital distro, not because of just gamestop but because of Bethesda (I believe is the name) because of the court case. I'm pretty sure it's not just gamestop, but yes gamestop is a contributor, because they get a lot more profit from selling in house, rather than out of house Smile

Polycell wrote:

]But the purchaser of the used copy isn't supporting the creator at all, which falls under your blanket statement "You're a thief because you're not financially supporting the creator". All I've done is shown your claim doesn't even allow for the first-sale doctrine; obvious backpedaling won't change the preposterousness of the statement.

Polycell wrote:

False equivalence. Obtaining an unauthorized copy doesn't deny a copy to the distributor.

Point given - buying second hand only supports to the creator once. I would, however, like to move on to discussing the next part of this post, as opposed to the second hand issue:

Polycell wrote:

First off, far from every download represents a lost sale - a number are from people who would never buy it in the first place, lack the wherewithal to do so or will go out and buy it because they liked what they saw; you can't know. Second, nothing in the definition you linked includes copyright infringement(it's just slander and libel by Hollywood - same as calling infringers pirates).

"a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully <stole> "

"c : to take surreptitiously or without permission <steal>"

Well, all those people on mangastream did not have permission to read those copies of Naruto, and they 'took without right or leave" a digital copy of the manga. That is stealing.

I'm a tiny minority, I know. But I've seen so many companies I love close down. I would rather support an archaic business model than see series I love no longer be available legally.

I'm concerned there is no business model that will satisfy anime fans anymore. HD steaming anime on same-day Japanese broadcast for any price will not satisfy anime fans when they can acquire the same quality for free.

I'm imagining Steam for anime right now, and I realize that most of the people I've ever talked to still wouldn't use it because it wasn't free, and that's what I'm worried about. What do you think would happen if a Steam for anime (no DRM, HD, simultaneous release, region free) came to life?

kushiel wrote:

Polycell wrote:

]But the purchaser of the used copy isn't supporting the creator at all, which falls under your blanket statement "You're a thief because you're not financially supporting the creator". All I've done is shown your claim doesn't even allow for the first-sale doctrine; obvious backpedaling won't change the preposterousness of the statement.

Polycell wrote:

False equivalence. Obtaining an unauthorized copy doesn't deny a copy to the distributor.

Point given - buying second hand only supports to the creator once. I would, however, like to move on to discussing the next part of this post, as opposed to the second hand issue:

Polycell wrote:

First off, far from every download represents a lost sale - a number are from people who would never buy it in the first place, lack the wherewithal to do so or will go out and buy it because they liked what they saw; you can't know. Second, nothing in the definition you linked includes copyright infringement(it's just slander and libel by Hollywood - same as calling infringers pirates).

"a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully <stole> "

"c : to take surreptitiously or without permission <steal>"

Well, all those people on mangastream did not have permission to read those copies of Naruto, and they 'took without right or leave" a digital copy of the manga. That is stealing.

I'm a tiny minority, I know. But I've seen so many companies I love close down. I would rather support an archaic business model than see series I love no longer be available legally.

I'm concerned there is no business model that will satisfy anime fans anymore. HD steaming anime on same-day Japanese broadcast for any price will not satisfy anime fans when they can acquire the same quality for free.

I'm imagining Steam for anime right now, and I realize that most of the people I've ever talked to still wouldn't use it because it wasn't free, and that's what I'm worried about. What do you think would happen if a Steam for anime (no DRM, HD, simultaneous release, region free) came to life?

I believe a steam like place for anime is exactly what crunchyroll and others are proceeding with right now. I'm not gonna say that it's 100% working, but if they can find what apple did (an agreement on price between the licenser and licensee) then they can start dishing out anime just like iTunes dishes out music & videos. What turns most people off about paying for anime is the "high" price; which is exactly what happened to the music industry right after napster took off. The industry thought that $20 for a cd was ok and people though otherwise. However when the $0.99 per song itunes store started up, more people started buying music again because it was a lot cheaper than buying the whole CD for $20. I'm not saying that these same exact models will work for anime, but something based on this could work.

The only thing holding these companies back is probably the economy. If they had extra available resources, they could try it out, but everyone is strapped for cash right now, and the only way to stay affloat right now, is to sale what you know will sale well. They dont have the capital or resources to invest in something so massive so quickly Smile

kushiel wrote:

Polycell wrote:

First off, far from every download represents a lost sale - a number are from people who would never buy it in the first place, lack the wherewithal to do so or will go out and buy it because they liked what they saw; you can't know. Second, nothing in the definition you linked includes copyright infringement(it's just slander and libel by Hollywood - same as calling infringers pirates).

"a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully <stole> "

"c : to take surreptitiously or without permission <steal>"

Well, all those people on mangastream did not have permission to read those copies of Naruto, and they 'took without right or leave" a digital copy of the manga. That is stealing.

Both of those definitions start with the phrase "to take"; ie, to remove from another's possession . Copyright infringement is no more theft than me hiring an artist to copy a painting I can see in your house from my window(seriously, you should get some curtains before hanging up something like that Shocked

).

Quote:

I'm a tiny minority, I know. But I've seen so many companies I love close down. I would rather support an archaic business model than see series I love no longer be available legally.

Given the number of people willing shell out $75 for a Madoka Magica LE(myself included), it's really just a matter of figuring out how to appeal to the paying crowd. Cheap no-frills boxsets don't really seem to have much of a future in any event.

Quote:

I'm concerned there is no business model that will satisfy anime fans anymore. HD steaming anime on same-day Japanese broadcast for any price will not satisfy anime fans when they can acquire the same quality for free.

This is where you get into the service issue: legal streaming isn't the same product as leech streaming isn't the same product as illegal downloads. The two biggest advantages of the legal stream are convenience and regularity - leech sites can't get onto your Roku or iThingie and neither they nor illegal downloads can consistently come out with high(ish)-quality subtitles an hour after the show aired. The key is to play up the advantages legal streams have over unauthorized alternatives(and, of course, to reduce the number of areas not covered by streaming agreements). There might also be some room for a middle-ground download/streaming combination, where the user could download most of the video in advance and only need to stream a small amount(preferably doable with dial-up) of vital data during playback, which would appeal to those with slower connections but HD capability.

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