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REVIEW: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha DVD


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Splitter



Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1276
Location: Knockin' on Heaven's Door
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:28 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
Wow. No wonder Geneon went under, if that's the best they could license. Rolling Eyes


Don't you think you owe it to yourself to at least attempt watching the series before coming to that conclusion? It doesn't seem fair to judge a series yourself based on one man's review of it.
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grgspunk



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 136
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:33 am Reply with quote
nargun wrote:
grgspunk wrote:
ANN seriously needs to diversify its staff and have it's reviews go through a more extensive editing/approval process


Anyone with any background in literary or critical theory, pretty much anyone who's actually able to write a review that goes beyond "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" will come to the same conclusions: Lyrical Nanoha has some deep, deep, deep thematic, structural, and content problems, and because of that cannot be uncritically recommended to anyone.

Which isn't to say that any random person won't enjoy it. Clearly some people do, but, equally clearly... a lot of people don't. And because of the high possibility that a random person won't enjoy it terribly much -- I'm sure you'll agree that there's a lot of people who will say publically they didn't enjoy Nanoha -- it cannot be uncritically recommended; a review has to reflect the possibility of this negative experience as much as it must reflect the possibility of a positive experience like yours.

Which, well, this one does. As someone who has, presumably, already seen Nanoha and made up your own mind, you are not the audience for this review. Any review. Reviews are for people who haven't seen the series.

Are we clear? The fact that there's a lot of negative sentiment about Nanoha itself demonstrates the accuracy of this review. There is a very high possibility that any random viewer will not enjoy the show, and the review has to reflect this. Which it does. Any competent review, any competent reviewer, would say exactly the same thing.


Bullshit. A reviewer's job is to make a fair assesment of a title based on its quality, not to be the "voice" of a group of fanboys or anti-fanboys.

This "negative sentiment" that is inherent in this review and the other posts is about the fact that it's a "moe" or "otaku" show. It does not lie in whether it is actually has bad animation, bad voice acting, bad music, etc, it is judged because it belongs to a specific genre. No reviewer who has any trace of competence would ever take the genre of a show as a negative or redeeming factor.

Would it be fair for me to call a show bad just because it happens to be an action show or the fact that there happens to be people who hate action shows?


Last edited by grgspunk on Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:47 am; edited 4 times in total
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DmonHiro





PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:37 am Reply with quote
Competent reviewer? Bollocks. A competent review will NOT insert ANY of his own opinions in a reivew. He will state FACTS not opinions. "Moe overkill" is not a fact, it's his own opinion, and should not be inserted into a "competent reviewers" work.
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2DOtaku



Joined: 24 Sep 2008
Posts: 122
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:39 am Reply with quote
I find it amusing that in a society such as ours, where slutty anorexic-looking dolls in miniskirts and merchandise based on a world-famous pornography franchise are produced for underage girls, people get so icky-wicky over some drawings. Which is the most detrimental I wonder. Confused

EDIT: And no, I'm not trying to start a lolicon debate.


Last edited by 2DOtaku on Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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grgspunk



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 136
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:40 am Reply with quote
DmonHiro wrote:
Competent reviewer? Bollocks. A competent review will NOT insert ANY of his own opinions in a reivew. He will state FACTS not opinions. "Moe overkill" is not a fact, it's his own opinion, and should not be inserted into a "competent reviewers" work.


See for yourself:

animenewsnetwork.com/review/kanon/dvd-1
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:46 am Reply with quote
grgspunk wrote:
A reviewer's job is to make a fair assesment of a title based on its quality, not to be the "voice" of a group of fanboys or anti-fanboys.

This "negative sentiment" that is inherent in this review is about the fact that it's a "moe" or "otaku" show. It does not lie in whether it is actually has bad animation, bad voice acting, bad music, etc, it is judged because it belongs to a specific genre. No reviewer who is competent would ever take the genre of a show as a negative or redeeming factor.

Would it be fair for me to call a show bad just because it happens to be an "action" show or the fact that there happens to be people who hate action shows?

Quote:
Overall (dub) : C-
Overall (sub) : C-
Story : D
Animation : B+
Art : B
Music : C
+ Idiosyncratic animation; some potent cuteness.
− Overstuffed, otaku-pandering script and plodding final act; malignant lolicon overtones are a major heebie-jeebie factor.

looks like it does quite adequately to me . Are you sure you're not just having a fanboy "you slagged off my favourite genre, so you suck". moment?
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Splitter



Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1276
Location: Knockin' on Heaven's Door
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:47 am Reply with quote
DmonHiro wrote:
Competent reviewer? Bollocks. A competent review will NOT insert ANY of his own opinions in a reivew. He will state FACTS not opinions. "Moe overkill" is not a fact, it's his own opinion, and should not be inserted into a "competent reviewers" work.


A review can still be competent if it has opinion. The difference between bias and objectivity, however, comes when the reviewer can see why any given piece of media can be enjoyed, if it all, and who would enjoy it, if anyone.

Carl, and every known critic, has the right to his or her opinion, but they also have the responsibility to acknowledge viewpoints other than their own. In this case, I believe Carl fairly reviewed the title. I say this having Nanoha as one of my Top 10 anime of all time as well, and Nanoha herself being my 2nd favorite character of all time.
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grgspunk



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 136
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:50 am Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
grgspunk wrote:
A reviewer's job is to make a fair assesment of a title based on its quality, not to be the "voice" of a group of fanboys or anti-fanboys.

This "negative sentiment" that is inherent in this review is about the fact that it's a "moe" or "otaku" show. It does not lie in whether it is actually has bad animation, bad voice acting, bad music, etc, it is judged because it belongs to a specific genre. No reviewer who is competent would ever take the genre of a show as a negative or redeeming factor.

Would it be fair for me to call a show bad just because it happens to be an "action" show or the fact that there happens to be people who hate action shows?

Quote:
Overall (dub) : C-
Overall (sub) : C-
Story : D
Animation : B+
Art : B
Music : C
+ Idiosyncratic animation; some potent cuteness.
− Overstuffed, otaku-pandering script and plodding final act; malignant lolicon overtones are a major heebie-jeebie factor.

looks like it does quite adequately to me . Are you sure you're not just having a fanboy "you slagged off my favourite genre, so you suck". moment?


I don't know, why didn't he talk a little more in-depth about the quality of the story, animation, art and music, as opposed to being preoccupied with the fact that there's a loli who happens to undergo magical transformations?

Anyone can assign a letter grade for anything in a few seconds.


Last edited by grgspunk on Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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nargun



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 924
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:52 am Reply with quote
grgspunk wrote:
Bullshit. A reviewer's job is to make a fair assesment of a title based on its quality, not to be the "voice" of a group of fanboys or anti-fanboys.


Yes. exactly. You might want to think on that some more.

grgspunk wrote:
This "negative sentiment" that is inherent in this review is about the fact that it's a "moe" or "otaku" show. It does not lie in whether it is actually has bad animation, bad voice acting, bad music, etc, it is judged because it belongs to a specific genre.


animenewsnetwork.com/review/strawberry-marshmallow/dvd-1

B/B+/B/A-/B/B

The problems are, very specifically, with Nanoha itself. Not with its genre per se; as the link above demonstrates, the ANN review system is perfectly capable of generating quite high ratings for moe shows. Nanoha's problems are frequent problems for shows in its genre, but that doesn't mean that this site is biased against moe any more than a review of Ultimate Mop Daisuke that said, "it's full of tedious training montages and the tournament arc drags on twelve eps too long" would indicate a systemic bias against shounen fight or adventure anime.

Nanoha. Has. Problems. Unusually severe problems, even for shows in its genre. This review reflects that.
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Splitter



Joined: 19 May 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:57 am Reply with quote
nargun wrote:


Nanoha. Has. Problems. Unusually severe problems, even for shows in its genre. This review reflects that.


Indeed, first season anyhow. Again, this is why I want to see Carl review A's, where many of these problems are corrected. Even as the first season progressed there was a definite push away from the conventions it established at the start. A's continues that push away and the franchise overall is nothing like how it originally started.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:02 am Reply with quote
grgspunk wrote:
I don't know, why didn't he talk a little more in-depth about the quality of the story, animation, art and music, as opposed to being preoccupied with the fact that there's a loli who happens to undergo magical transformations?

Anyone can assign a letter grade for anything in a few seconds.
Not if he wants to keep his job as a reviewer he can't. He obviously didn't see the same "quality" you did enough to write more about. It is his review after all. Lets see yours.
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grgspunk



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 136
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:07 am Reply with quote
Quote:
[quote="nargun"]
grgspunk wrote:
Bullshit. A reviewer's job is to make a fair assesment of a title based on its quality, not to be the "voice" of a group of fanboys or anti-fanboys.


Yes. exactly. You might want to think on that some more.


I have. It seems to me that we see the a lot of the justification for such biases and subjective opinions being expressed as fact is because they want to be a "counterweight" to be moe-fanboys. Acting like a jackass in one direction in response to seeing another person be a jackass in the opposite direction does not make you any less of a jackass. Two wrongs don't make a right.


Quote:
grgspunk wrote:
This "negative sentiment" that is inherent in this review is about the fact that it's a "moe" or "otaku" show. It does not lie in whether it is actually has bad animation, bad voice acting, bad music, etc, it is judged because it belongs to a specific genre.


animenewsnetwork.com/review/strawberry-marshmallow/dvd-1

B/B+/B/A-/B/B

Quote:
The problems are, very specifically, with Nanoha itself. Not with its genre per se; as the link above demonstrates, the ANN review system is perfectly capable of generating quite high ratings for moe shows. Nanoha's problems are frequent problems for shows in its genre, but that doesn't mean that this site is biased against moe any more than a review of Ultimate Mop Daisuke that said, "it's full of tedious training montages and the tournament arc drags on twelve eps too long" would indicate a systemic bias against shounen fight or adventure anime.

Nanoha. Has. Problems. Unusually severe problems, even for shows in its genre. This review reflects that.


Unusually severe problems? Loli got your tongue? I can't really believe that this site doesn't have some sort of bias gainst moe either. I mean, Answerman can be a dick to moe fans, and I don't see a lot of other moe titles (sometimes equal in quality as Strawberry Marshmallow) get as good reviews compared to those that get rated unusually low ratings, especially compared to other anime review sites. You think one good review is enough when lots of other titles get picked on? Sure, some of them can be pretty bad, but I find it hard to believe that there are only a tiny few gems.


Last edited by grgspunk on Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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Counter Arts



Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:09 am Reply with quote
nargun wrote:
Are we clear? The fact that there's a lot of negative sentiment about Nanoha itself demonstrates the accuracy of this review.


I don't know about the review being accurate or not to the non-fan of Nanoha.

However, this following quote in the review really makes me question most of the review.

Quote:
Add to that his skin-crawling lolicon fan-service—which includes a brutal whipping in which eight-year-old Fate's clothes are flayed from her body as she hangs trussed from a rope—and the series is pretty grim going.


To me, it seemed like the the only way the reviewer could make this statement is if they did not know the context in which this happened. This was more of a statement about a social problem than fan-service in my view.

That statement seems to form the basis for the last two closing sentences in the review.

It does not positively demonstrate to me the reviewer's competence.
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Splitter



Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1276
Location: Knockin' on Heaven's Door
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:12 am Reply with quote
grgspunk wrote:

Unusually severe problems? Loli got your tongue? I can't really believe that this site doesn't have some sort of bias gainst moe either. I mean, Answerman can be a dick to moe fans, and I don't see a lot of other moe titles (sometimes equal in quality as Strawberry Marshmallow) get as good reviews compared to those that get rated unusually low ratings, especially compared to other anime review sites. You think one good review is enough?


ANN doesn't just have one reviewer. They have like five... I think. Anyway, it's Carl's review and thus it comes with Carl's opinion. To echo a previous poster, if you have a problem with it, let's see your review of the series.
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rekishi



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 78
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:16 am Reply with quote
Labbes wrote:
Machius wrote:
I have to agree with this review on almost all points. That said Nanoha is still a level above all other mahou shojo anime series(baring those by CLAMP and Mahou Shojotai Alice(aka Tweeny Witches)), there may be significant loli overtones but at least it has something that tries to go beyond the sickenly sweet aspects which smother almost all other series in the genre


Check out Princess Tutu, it's very different from any magical girl show I have seen.


watching princess tutu right now coincidentally... after buying nanoha a few weeks back, i was in need of something genuine... it's not bad by the way...

as for nanoha... i don't want to not like it... but it's hard... it just didn't click with me... i WAS expecting a modern magical girl classic... and was even hoping for it... but... it just couldn't pull it off...

i usually like shows that are sugary cute... but they spoiled this in so many ways... it's hard to not feel like a pedo when they force feed underaged nudity to you... those transformation sequences seriously ruined it for me... they are just so unnecessary...

i'm keeping this series whilst i decide whether or not it's worth holding on to for when A's comes out... but to be honest... i don't know if i want to keep it or not...
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