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Hey, Answerman! - The Subtitle Will Not Be Televised


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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:20 pm Reply with quote
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
Sunday Silence wrote:
Juno016 wrote:
I don't think Brian actually meant anything THAT harsh about buying used copies of anime or manga.


Given how people are frustrated at the "entitled" anime/manga fans out there, sometimes differentiating between a legitimate way (buying used goods) vs. illegal way (torrents, going to scanlation sites, etc.) is blurred.


I know that feeling all to well. Talking to or convincing someone is huge pain in the ass. Still I don't see the problem of buying out of print products I do it all the time with sega saturn/dream cast games or snes.

I get the sense that when something is licensed recused support that company for doing so I do when it's title that is hard to come by. However being a collector I prefer single dvd's with art boxes, instead of over cramming 4-6 dvd's in one set. Again this just my personal preference for product that's available.


And i'll throw out one additional possibility which can be summed up by these articles, only in a different genre:

http://kotaku.com/5886237/reporter-activision-blacklisted-us-because-i-refused-to-pull-call-of-duty-sequel-story

http://kotaku.com/5886923/activision-removes-french-games-journalists-from-alleged-blacklist

Being pro-anything that denies profits to companies = potential blacklisting.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:57 pm Reply with quote
Maybe I'm a dick, but I don't have a lot of disposable income so I will go for the cheapest product.. whether its used or not. I wait for price drops too, is that bad too since the company doesn't get as much money?

I've gotta look out for myself first, and my finances are more important than the finances of some faceless company.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:23 pm Reply with quote
@RyanSaotome:

Whether its used games, piracy, dub vs. sub, history has a habit of repeating itself: we all get up in arms in a scramble to defend ourselves from the keyboard-lashings of fellow forumites, and hey, the best defense is an offense. Lashings abound!

Just don't lose any sleep over it.

It's A-OK to disagree. It's fine and dandy to be not have all the answers. The chances of any of us instantly changing our minds is almost nil. What's important is that we can at least entertain the possibility of being wrong and let other people play Devil's Advocate. If that much is done, then it's possible communication has occured; I call that success.
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Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 5113
Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:26 am Reply with quote
LordByronius wrote:

now then! RE: buying used

i never said it was "intrinsically wrong" to buy used books. that's silly. like i mentioned in the column, anime and manga goes out of print all the time, but it's usually for the betterment of all to purchase a new copy instead, if it is available. not just because it "supports the artist" but i mean c'mon, spend the extra couple of bucks to get a copy in decent shape that hasn't been chewed through by a sweaty teenager.

It's not for the betterment of the guy trying to sell his stuff used, usually at a loss, for whatever reason (like maybe he needs the space, or extra cash, or what-have-you). If you don't care about your copy being in mint condition and you want to save some money, there is nothing wrong with buying things used.

Or libraries for that matter...See how Animegomaniac misquoted me and used that as a starting off point arguing that pirating is okay? He wrote:
Quote:
Oh, these companies would stop libraries if they could, don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise.


Tamaria replied
Quote:
Actually, no, they wouldn't. Libraries are some of the most loyal customers a company can have. 15-20% of the sales of some of Vertical's titles are thanks to libraries. The number goes up for publishers that are active mostly/only in the academic field. Losing libraries would hurt.


And Tamaria is right.

I wish I could convince every manga and anime fan to look at the websites of all the libraries in their area before they pirate something. Chances are they'll find out that many titles they want to read or watch are available to them for free-legally!

And any financially conscious consumer would be wise to take note of all the used book and video stores around him/her, not to mention all the independent bookstores and comic bookstores.

A few things that still haven't been brought up:
1. Independent bookstores/comic book stores do not return books or DVDs back to the distributors the way chain stores like Barnes and Noble do. Meaning you can often find OOP stuff at list price or less at these places.

2. And if you can find something at list price, and then sell it online at its current rate, you can make a profit!

I have little storage space and less money, so I usually take resale value into account when deciding whether or not to purchase. At least, it helps if I can convince my parents that it's an investment. Wink

(note: I've actually never sold books via ebay, but it's nice to know that when I do I may actually make some money off of the rarer titles that I own.)
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pinoiBIGscientian



Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:01 am Reply with quote
I've sent Answerman a question-slash-rebuttal to his answer on piracy and whether it is justifiable outside of North America. I'm almost certain of how he will answer this, but hey. I';ll never know till I try. I thought I'd share the e-mail I sent with you, and see whether people will agree with me or not.

Quote:
Good day, Answerman! I stumbled upon your latest edition of your column, and a particular question caught my eye, the one that was sent by someone "[living] in a South East Asian country" (which is most likely the Philippines). Your answer to that question seemed to answer somehow my hounding question on whether or not you will support what I call the "Availability Principle." The question-sender, however, failed to show the entire anime and manga situation in the Philippines. Here is, in a nutshell, the Philippine situation (some of which were also said by the previous question-sender):

1.) A number of local TV channels (or "national TV" there in the States) manage to air an average of at least 1 hour of anime programming a day, though they mostly air shounen and sports anime,
2.) there are two cable channels entirely devoted to anime, but their choice of programming seems to come out of a lottery,
3.) some manga titles are available in some bookstores (there's even this one shop that sells shounen-ai manga alongside American comics :/), but selection of titles and volumes is limited,
4.) the sale of pirated CDs and DVDs of movies, music, and anime is rampant and a persistent problem in our country (but come on, I haven't seen a reputable supermarket selling the stuff :/), and
5.) original, licensed anime media is nigh impossible to come by.

There was this one plan by ABS-CBN to release official, licensed DVDs of Naruto, their anime crown jewel. There were even pictures of the planned design of the boxes that leaked on the Internet. But a few months after, we learned that ABS-CBN ultimately scrapped the project (possibly because of the very fact that it was leaked).

Now let me make this clear: I absolutely do not condone buying pirated CDs or DVDs of pretty much anything, anime included. The reason for this is pretty much clear: 100% of profits derived from sales of these pirated stuff go to those who make and sell them, and not a penny to the copyright holders. They're essentially making money out of somebody else's work. And if a licensed copy of an anime or manga title is available legally in the Philippines, then there's no reason not to buy them if you really want them. I, for instance, am the lone member of our family who insists on buying an original copy of Windows whenever we go out and buy a new PC.

But I personally believe there is a grey area we can possibly tow when it comes to Internet downloads and streaming. That's where my Availability Principle comes in. It states that unless an original, licensed version of an anime or manga title is locally available, then watching or reading it off the Internet can still be somehow justifiable (That "Oatmeal" comic you linked will not fall under here, since the unavailability of the The Game of Thrones is a matter of time, and it will become available in those online outlets anyway).

Now I will admit that this principle will most likely crumble precisely because of the availability of Internet shopping, as you have pointed out in your answer. And I also believe that if someone is able to import it for their own use, then by very means, do so. HOWEVER, there is one major hurdle all potential Filipino importers have to go through: The Bureau of Customs. Oh yes, our hate-hate relationship with the Customs, it never ends. Let me explain: if the value of your import exceeds US$50 (and that's just in theory: some customs officers actually hold packages regardless of its value), then your package will be HELD by Customs FOR WEEKS, EVEN MONTHS ON END and you will have to personally go to the EMS Sorting Facility in Pasay City (a city about 6 km or so south of Manila) and pay taxes and duties, which will amount to at least 20% of the package's original value. (It doesn't help that the Bureau of Customs is consistently ranked as one of the most corrupt government agencies in our country.) It's practically a nightmare to personally import stuff to the Philippines, something which requires a heck of a lot of patience, something which many of us don't have. I only know of a handful of people who are willing to put themselves through this to get their anime stuff.

So, considering these circumstances, are you still willing to accept, at least in part, the Availability Principle? I know that you are passionate about your stance against piracy, and I'm not trying to put up a fight. I'm just letting out my own stance that there is still a possibly negotiable way out of our country's problem of lack of legal ways to get a copy of anime or manga, and see whether anyone will support it. (And apologies for the long letter. I felt it was necessary to explain this in detail.)

Hoping for the best yet expecting the worst,
Lorenz
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Mr. sickVisionz



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2171
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:26 pm Reply with quote
My two cents...

When it comes to anything that I consider to be artistic, I buy it new. I've always been into art, I make a living doing video and music, and I fully believe in the concept of the professional artist: someone who can make a living by making art.

When I buy music, anime, books, movies, etc, it's equally to own it and support people making quality content that I enjoy. If anything, wanting to support the people who made it is the #1 reason by far. However, I'm cheap and miserly to a degree that I'd never just give someone a straight up donation with nothing in return. Buying the product strikes and equilibrium between me supporting them and getting something in return.

There's nothing illegal or unethical about buying used but I love anime and I want to see the people making it and releasing it profit from their work. If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it. I might as well as pirate it, which I haven't done for years, because

  • I can still access it, just like buying it used
  • Nobody who made it sees a penny of my money, just like buying it used
  • I spend $0, which is a huge benefit over buying it used.
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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 741
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:14 pm Reply with quote
Mr. sickVisionz wrote:
If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it. I might as well as pirate it]

Now this is the slippery slope one of the posters mentioned a few pages back that Brian quickly dismissed. I commend you wanting to give back to the original artist as much as you can, but buying used is not equivalent to pirating, just the same as borrowing a dvd from a friend or from the library for that matter. Does the artist get money specifically from that person who borrowed the item or bought it used from some nameless smoe? No, but that same item was purchased legally by the initial person and that profit was made. That situation is very different than someone stealing something and putting it on the internet for thousands of people to leach off of for free.
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Kakugo



Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 163
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:39 pm Reply with quote
Mesonoxian Eve wrote:
We tired of your excuses, your lack of credible proof these industries are hurting (especially when you seem to ignore statements by these companies themselves to the contrary)...


Then you haven't been paying attention. Media Blasters is clearly in dire straits and fired 60% of their production staff, Bandai Entertainment has been (effectively) shut down by their higher-ups in Tokyo, and FUNimation is actually canceling their Dragon Ball Z Blu-ray release, despite the DVDs being out of print. Tack this into companies like Geneon not existing anymore or Manga Entertainment releasing about three films a year and this is hardly the sign of a "healthy" industry.


Now, while I agree with the point that buying new (not heavily discounted, not OOP, and not used) supports the industry directly, I don't think dragging video games into the discussion is all that useful. For one thing, the game industry has a more or less fixed pricing arrangement with higher wholesale costs to match, forcing consumers to pay a flat rate of $60 whether that's at Game Stop or Wal-Mart or the local Mom 'n' Pop shop. This means the only way retailers can convince customers to go to them - versus every other store selling the exact same product for the exact same price - is to pay the developers for some "store exclusive" trinket, usually in the form of DLC. They also have said DLC available, more often than not, the day the game is released - and sometimes that content is actually on the disc. Sure it's all "bonus" content, technically, but think about it; can you remember the last time you had to buy a DVD, and then pay an extra $5 to listen to the commentary? Of course not! Because no other industry does this.

Those "Online Passes" are the biggest bunch of bull on the planet, might I add. The only seemingly valid argument is that "we need that money to upkeep on expanding servers" - but think about that for a second. If Joe Blow buys a copy of Mortal Kombat, sells it to Game Stop, and Little Jimmy buys his copy... well, in what way is that server getting any more bogged down? Jimmy takes Joe's spot, and Joe is no longer on the server at all. Equivalent exchange, really. If there was no used game market, then the situation would be exactly the same - they just wouldn't have the opportunity to monetarily punish customers who'd rather buy a game used. It's crap, and as I see that creeping up more often, I'm glad that I could typically give a fig about online multiplayer... the irony being I typically buy new anyway.

GameStop makes a nice profit off of used games, but that's because the game industry itself has left them no particularly viable methods to make a profit off of new games to start with. Meanwhile the industry has a host of ploys to get you to keep paying for a game you've already paid for. The anime industry - indeed, the whole home video and comics markets at large - doesn't have nearly the complex market that games do. They also don't have the head-scratcher where GameStop, the wicked purveyor of used games cutting into the industry's bottom line, is also their single largest retailer and their trade-in program offers consumers a chance to unload junk they didn't like and get a new shot at something they might for a discount! Get rid of that small bit of leverage the consumer has left, and I can't imagine sales for new titles going up.

...but yeah. If you want to support artists, just buy whatever their product is, new if you can. I've seen people grumble about watching people buy figures instead of DVDs, but so what? It's all small percentages that filter back to the creators.
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:16 pm Reply with quote
Kakugo wrote:
Then you haven't been paying attention. Media Blasters is clearly in dire straits and fired 60% of their production staff, Bandai Entertainment has been (effectively) shut down by their higher-ups in Tokyo, and FUNimation is actually canceling their Dragon Ball Z Blu-ray release, despite the DVDs being out of print. Tack this into companies like Geneon not existing anymore or Manga Entertainment releasing about three films a year and this is hardly the sign of a "healthy" industry.


One could argue that the industry is hurting itself rather than the blame be (mostly) squarely on the fandom itself.

Answerman's column this week showed one flaw: blame your consumer base for your ills and hope your "placebo cure(s)" will make it all better.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:47 pm Reply with quote
Sunday Silence wrote:

One could argue that the industry is hurting itself rather than the blame be (mostly) squarely on the fandom itself.

Answerman's column this week showed one flaw: blame your consumer base for your ills and hope your "placebo cure(s)" will make it all better.


Outfts like Media Blasters make enough drama for themselves, that's for sure (check out Stuart Galbraith IV's blog for a window into that world). There's no doubt that there are companies now and before have been every bit as shysty as their consumers. But what about when MB et al get it together and do a good job on something? I don't particularly feel like it's my responsibility to keep an industry afloat just for the sake of it, but when they do something right that I can appreciate I'm nothing but glad to shell out the cash and make it mine. These achievements have got to be recognized when they happen, or else there's nothing to temper the non-stop criticism and we're just a bunch of whining nerds.
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Kakugo



Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 163
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:03 pm Reply with quote
Sunday Silence wrote:
One could argue that the industry is hurting itself rather than the blame be (mostly) squarely on the fandom itself.



A fair point... though not one I'm convinced is particularly valid here.

What more can the US end of industry realistically do for the fandom, anyway? FUNimation and Sentai simulcast titles to curb the "need" for fansubs, and Blu-ray releases are finally the norm, not the exception (Nozomi and Discotek aside, sadly). The vast majority of releases are still bilingual, despite the fact that the majority of the potential target customers will (and do) watch them shows without them. Prices per minute on home video are lower than they ever have been before, and we're still offered limited edition releases on a number of select titles... even if it's seemingly reserved for the creme de la creme (Utena, Madoka and the Dragon Boxes come to mind).

Media Blasters is run by crooks, fools and liars... but you know what? I've bought plenty of their titles, and I'll buy more IF they don't screw them up horribly. I couldn't care less about Sirabella and his goons*, but I'll give anyone my hard earned money for an HD copy of Queen's Blade or Mazinkaiser SKL or The Story of Ricky (which is a lousy f'ing upscale, by the way). It's not about Media Blasters, it's about the artists, writers and producers that actually made those shows exist seeing a fraction of my $40. If Sirabella's coffers are lined by me paying to own Kinji Yoshimoto and Rin-Sin material, so be it.

* No offense to any prior or current MB goons intended. It's not you I dislike, just the shoddy product your management tells you to push out.
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Mr. sickVisionz



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2171
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:26 pm Reply with quote
kakoishii wrote:
Mr. sickVisionz wrote:
If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it. I might as well as pirate it]

Now this is the slippery slope one of the posters mentioned a few pages back that Brian quickly dismissed. I commend you wanting to give back to the original artist as much as you can, but buying used is not equivalent to pirating, just the same as borrowing a dvd from a friend or from the library for that matter. Does the artist get money specifically from that person who borrowed the item or bought it used from some nameless smoe? No, but that same item was purchased legally by the initial person and that profit was made. That situation is very different than someone stealing something and putting it on the internet for thousands of people to leach off of for free.


I never said buying used was pirating. In fact, I said there was nothing illegal or unethical about buying used, which can't be said about piracy imo.

Even if I did, which I didn't, how is what you quoted from me a slippery slope argument? I said nothing about future impact on the industry or implied anything about future events or where buying used could lead to. All I said was that I like to support the people who produce/release the content and buying used doesn't let me do that, so I don't do it. Where is the slippery slope?
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:01 pm Reply with quote
Kakugo wrote:
I couldn't care less about Sirabella and his goons*


Did monsieur already put ANN in the bin with AoD, or are we looking at an Urotsukidouji redux here? Shocked
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Kakugo



Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 163
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:31 pm Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
Did monsieur already put ANN in the bin with AoD, or are we looking at an Urotsukidouji redux here? Shocked


Good question! Has he posted here in the last several months, or is his silence as deafening here as it is on the Blu-ray.com and Anime on DVD forums?

"jsirabella" left the AoD forums without a word about that Urotsukidoji trainwreck, by the way. Check the Moribito thread for the official 'Screw you guys, I'm going home!' post.

...so, used manga sales. How 'bout 'em?
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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 741
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:50 pm Reply with quote
Mr. sickVisionz wrote:
kakoishii wrote:
Mr. sickVisionz wrote:
If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it. I might as well as pirate it]

Now this is the slippery slope one of the posters mentioned a few pages back that Brian quickly dismissed. I commend you wanting to give back to the original artist as much as you can, but buying used is not equivalent to pirating, just the same as borrowing a dvd from a friend or from the library for that matter. Does the artist get money specifically from that person who borrowed the item or bought it used from some nameless smoe? No, but that same item was purchased legally by the initial person and that profit was made. That situation is very different than someone stealing something and putting it on the internet for thousands of people to leach off of for free.


I never said buying used was pirating. In fact, I said there was nothing illegal or unethical about buying used, which can't be said about piracy imo.

Even if I did, which I didn't, how is what you quoted from me a slippery slope argument? I said nothing about future impact on the industry or implied anything about future events or where buying used could lead to. All I said was that I like to support the people who produce/release the content and buying used doesn't let me do that, so I don't do it. Where is the slippery slope?

by putting out such a statement as "If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it. I might as well as pirate it..." it leads to flawed reasoning such as "if buying used doesn't support the original creators, it's just as bad as pirating." My pointing that out wasn't me saying that you were saying that, but really me cautioning you for wording it that way because of the "slippery slope" that could come out of the advent of such a remark. It's already a touchy subject for the frugal people in the fandom, no need to make it any more touchier.
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