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NEWS: FCC uses Doraemon on Site


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s_j



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 162
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:04 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:

Tezuka was an artist and Shogakukkan is a corporate entity. The real creators of Doraemon split a long time ago, and one of them passed away. So the only one speaking against the FCC is Shogakukkan, while manga artists and Tezuka's family were the ones complaining about Disney.


Just because it is a corporation doesn't necessarily mean they're doing it only because of financial considerations. As caretakers of the Doraemon image, they are obligated to protect the property.

GATSU wrote:

I'd say "no". But once again, even if that did happen, Shogakukkan's bottom line wouldn't be hurt by the confusion, and might in fact be helped.


Trademarks are lost when not protected, so there's more than monetary concerns at stake. Again, I don't think the primary motivation is money...they only asked for the offending image to be removed. Doraemon is a cultural icon that has been built over decades, so I can see why they'd take this more personally.

AnimeHeretic wrote:

Does KFC sue everytime someone puts a Col. Sanders in the background of a comedy anime? Does McDonalds sue every time they put a misshapen "M" in the background of an anime? These happen a lot in anime. The words are slightly edited, but they're still made to resemble the franchise trademarks.


Those aren't really apt comparisons. The FCC is using the image as a *mascot.* That is not incidental usage.

Parody laws also do not apply to trademark laws. You cannot parody a trademark *for use as a trademark*. This is why Kieron Dwyer can use the Consumer Whore logo as a parody in his comics and probably get away with it, but was promptly sued by Starbucks when he put that parody logo on t-shirts and mugs.

AnimeHeretic wrote:

In writing novels. the law recognizes something called "accidental infringement."


This applies to cases where different people may create similar things completely independent from each other because they have similar ideas. This only applies to copyright, not trademarks. Trademark law does not care whether the marks were derived independently, or whether it was for profit. Its main concern is whether or not the marks are similar enough that it may cause confusion in the marketplace. While one may argue that since Doraemon is not published in the U.S., there is no market confusion. But Doraemon *may* be published/licensed here, therefore companies must protect their trademarks internationally.
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AstroNerdBoy



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 413
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:10 am Reply with quote
I know the real reason the FCC hasn't responded. They are too busy trying to make sure Big Entertainment is pampered and that recording HDTV stuff can be vetoed whenever Big Entertainment wants.
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AnimeHeretic



Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 179
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:30 am Reply with quote
s_j wrote:
This applies to cases where different people may create similar things completely independent from each other because they have similar ideas. This only applies to copyright, not trademarks. Trademark law does not care whether the marks were derived independently, or whether it was for profit. Its main concern is whether or not the marks are similar enough that it may cause confusion in the marketplace. While one may argue that since Doraemon is not published in the U.S., there is no market confusion. But Doraemon *may* be published/licensed here, therefore companies must protect their trademarks internationally.

Which brings us back to the original question of the debate (still unproven): Is Broadband an infringement on Doremon? Until that is proven in a court of law, all arguments on this thread against the FCC are based on the logical fallacy known as "begging the question": Assuming to be true something that needs to be proved.
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s_j



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 162
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:58 pm Reply with quote
So all arguments against are based on the fallacy that it's not infringing? Or maybe we shouldn't discuss any legal subjects at all until they have been decided at court? Rolling Eyes

I'm pointing out why most arguments against this is simply based on the incorrect view of this situation that it's a copyright violation. It's *not*...it's a trademark violation. (You were applying a copyright test in the Harry Potter example.) And trademark protection of visual symbols is much broader...only a *likeness* needs to be established for them to have a case. You are forming your opinions on copyright tests, which are much more laxed in this area. For example, if someone drew Broadband as part of a comic, it would actually be very tough to prove it is a copyright violation. But using the image of Broadband as a mascot on their website is not a creative endeavor, so it's a trademark violation and it's a lot easier to prove infringment.

My purely personal opinion is that yes, this is infringing use. If this were another company instead of the FCC, this would be pretty much an open and shut case, given Shogakkukan's resources, and the amount of merchandising the image of Doraemon is on. (Trademarks become stronger the more products it's used on.)

Of course, you are free to come to the opposite conclusion, but you must use trademark standards. Parody and fair use exemptions simply do not apply here.
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Dagwood



Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 222
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:29 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Which brings us back to the original question of the debate (still unproven): Is Broadband an infringement on Doremon?

Yes, although I believe it is mere coincidence, the image should be removed, and nothing more.
Quote:
As caretakers of the Doraemon image, they are obligated to protect the property.

Quote:
Trademark law does not care whether the marks were derived independently, or whether it was for profit. Its main concern is whether or not the marks are similar enough that it may cause confusion in the marketplace. While one may argue that since Doraemon is not published in the U.S., there is no market confusion. But Doraemon *may* be published/licensed here, therefore companies must protect their trademarks internationally.

Yet it may. That's why it should be removed.

Quote:
Assuming to be true something that needs to be proved.

Your right AnimeHeretic, we can't prove it entirerly. Based on what I've heard, and the images I saw, that is were I drew my conclusion.
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AnimeHeretic



Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 179
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:10 pm Reply with quote
s_j wrote:
So all arguments against are based on the fallacy that it's not infringing? Or maybe we shouldn't discuss any legal subjects at all until they have been decided at court? Rolling Eyes

No, I'm saying that a good portion of the posters are presuming that the similarities are a deliberate theft of Doremon, when that is the issue needing to be proved.

I have no problem saying: IF this was deliberate then the FCC should face the consequences. That word "IF" is the key. If Shokkakugan feels strongly enough on the issue, they are free to go to court to press the issue. Personally, I think they'll lose.
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s_j



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 162
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:30 pm Reply with quote
AnimeHeretic wrote:

No, I'm saying that a good portion of the posters are presuming that the similarities are a deliberate theft of Doremon, when that is the issue needing to be proved.


I understand that you were replying to earlier posts that made the assumption of deliberate theft, but...

*No, that is NOT the issue needing to be proved.*

Shogakukkan does not need to prove deliberate theft to enforce their trademark.

That was the gist of my posts. It does not matter whether the FCC was deliberately stealing the Doraemon image, or Broadband was conceived of originally and just happen to resemble Doraemon coincidentally. Trademark law makes no such exemptions. The question is whether Broadband resembles Doraemon enough to constitute a trademark infringement.

Trademark enforcement is not made out of spite, or as a get rich quick scheme. Let's assume Shogakkukan does nothing, and the FCC starts to use Broadband more widely (in print and on tv commercials.) After say, 10 years, Shogakukkan decides to bring Doraemon to the U.S., they may actually be prevented from using Doraemon's image as a logo on merchandise by the FCC! Far-fetched, but not impossible. Welcome to Crazyworld. Trademarks are lost when not defended in a timely matter. That's why they have to nip this thing in the bud, so to speak.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15298
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:21 pm Reply with quote
s_j:
Quote:
Just because it is a corporation doesn't necessarily mean they're doing it only because of financial considerations. As caretakers of the Doraemon image, they are obligated to protect the property.


Yes, but the Japanese don't use the FCC website. So it appears that Shogakukkan is overextending itself.

Quote:
Trademarks are lost when not protected, so there's more than monetary concerns at stake.


Well thanks to those a-holes at Disney lobbying for a 75-year trademark extension, Shogakukkan can continue ruining Doraemon's appeal with heartless sequels the way Disney is doing with Winnie the Pooh.

Quote:
Parody laws also do not apply to trademark laws. You cannot parody a trademark *for use as a trademark*. This is why Kieron Dwyer can use the Consumer Whore logo as a parody in his comics and probably get away with it, but was promptly sued by Starbucks when he put that parody logo on t-shirts and mugs.


Yes, but as I said earlier, the FCC is not making any money using that Doraemon knock-off.

Quote:
This applies to cases where different people may create similar things completely independent from each other because they have similar ideas. This only applies to copyright, not trademarks. Trademark law does not care whether the marks were derived independently, or whether it was for profit. Its main concern is whether or not the marks are similar enough that it may cause confusion in the marketplace.


Unless the FCC sells manga and anime, then there's no way it will cause confusing.

Quote:
After say, 10 years, Shogakukkan decides to bring Doraemon to the U.S., they may actually be prevented from using Doraemon's image as a logo on merchandise by the FCC! Far-fetched, but not impossible.


That's assuming that the FCC suddenly decides to use its own mascot for profit, which doesn't seem to be the case.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:40 pm Reply with quote
Ok Trademark Law...

First off, it is necessary to see if the Doraemon image is Trademarked in the US or Internationally through the Madrid Protocol. I did not conduct a search of US Trademarks, but a search of the Madrid Protocol Database shows that Shogakukan holds International Trademarks on the name Doraemon, and an image of the name Doraemon, but not an actual image of Doraemon.

Secondly, to claim Trademark infringement, several factors must be proved. The main one being a likelihood-of-confusion about the origin of the defendant's goods or services. In other words, to confuse people into thinking goods or services are being delivered from the company being infringed upon, instead of the company that is illegally using the mark.

There are several factors used to determine whether this likelihood-of-confusion has and/or is taking place:

# the similarity in the overall impression created by the two marks (including the marks' look, phonetic similarities, and underlying meanings);
# the similarities of the goods and services involved (including an examination of the marketing channels for the goods);
# the strength of the plaintiff's mark;
# any evidence of actual confusion by consumers;
# the intent of the defendant in adopting its mark;
# the physical proximity of the goods in the retail marketplace;
# the degree of care likely to be exercised by the consumer; and
# the likelihood of expansion of the product lines.

If anything, they could have a case of Trademark Dilution, but even then they have an affirmative defense if they claim a parody, in which case the court would decide if it was or not.


Last edited by Kazuki-san on Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AnimeHeretic



Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 179
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:50 pm Reply with quote
EDIT:
In light of the post above (posted while I was composing mine originally) that says it better than what I was trying to say, I'll yank the original text from this post and hope this thread can die.
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s_j



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 162
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:02 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
Ok Trademark Law...

First off, it is necessary to see if the Doraemon image is Trademarked in the US or Internationally through the Madrid Protocol. I did not conduct a search of US Trademarks, but a search of the Madrid Protocol Database shows that Shogakukan holds International Trademarks on the name Doraemon, and an image of the name Doraemon, but not an actual image of Doraemon.


Trademarks do not have to be registered, just as copyrights do not have to be registered. As members of WIPO, Japanese patents and trademarks are enforced in the U.S., and vice versa.

Kazuki-san wrote:

Secondly, to claim Trademark infringement, several factors must be proved. The main one being a likelihood-of-confusion about the origin of the defendant's goods or services. In other words, to confuse people into thinking goods or services are being delivered from the company being infringed upon, instead of the company that is illegally using the mark.


This also includes usage of a trademarked icon as a mascot to promote an organization or business. Therefore it is not necessary for both to offer the same goods for trademark infringement to happen.

Kazuki-san wrote:

# the similarity in the overall impression created by the two marks (including the marks' look, phonetic similarities, and underlying meanings);
# the similarities of the goods and services involved (including an examination of the marketing channels for the goods);
# the strength of the plaintiff's mark;
# any evidence of actual confusion by consumers;
# the intent of the defendant in adopting its mark;
# the physical proximity of the goods in the retail marketplace;
# the degree of care likely to be exercised by the consumer; and
# the likelihood of expansion of the product lines.


Yes, and as long as any one of these are true, a claim can be made for trademark infringement. Doraemon is an extremely strong brand in Japan. And obviously the marks are similar enough that this is a news item both her in anime circles, and more broadly in Japan.

Kazuki-san wrote:

If anything, they could have a case of Trademark Dilution, but even then they have an affirmative defense if they claim a parody, in which case the court would decide if it was or not.


No, they can NOT claim parody, as usage of this image as a mascot for the website cannot be considered a creative endeavor!
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:22 pm Reply with quote
s_j wrote:

Trademarks do not have to be registered, just as copyrights do not have to be registered. As members of WIPO, Japanese patents and trademarks are enforced in the U.S., and vice versa.


It is specifically stated on the Madrid Protocol site of the WIPO that a trademark MUST be registered to be enforced. A de fac


s_j wrote:
This also includes usage of a trademarked icon as a mascot to promote an organization or business. Therefore it is not necessary for both to offer the same goods for trademark infringement to happen.

The standard of proof for Trademark infringment IS likelihood-of-confusion, and I somehow doubt that is provable in this case.

s_j wrote:
Yes, and as long as any one of these are true, a claim can be made for trademark infringement. Doraemon is an extremely strong brand in Japan. And obviously the marks are similar enough that this is a news item both her in anime circles, and more broadly in Japan.


And those are factors that are taken into account, however the other factors are also taken into account. Saying the marks are similar enough mean nothing, you must prove it in court. Companies sue other companies and other people all the the time even though they have either no or shoddy legal ground to stand on.

In any case, the stupid thing looks nothing like Doraemon, except that they are both cats that are standing up.
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s_j



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 162
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:23 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:

It is specifically stated on the Madrid Protocol site of the WIPO that a trademark MUST be registered to be enforced. A de fac


The Madrid Protocol facilitates the registration of trademarks in foreign countries, so that they may pursue the case in a federal court, *for monetary damages.* It does not mean they do not have the trademark, nor that the trademark is unenforceable without it (i.e. injunctions may still be granted by the court.) If the Doraemon visual design has not yet been registered, Shogakukan can still submit an image for registered trademarking now, and can still enforce it as they had prior usage (even though it was not registered.)

Kazuki-san wrote:

The standard of proof for Trademark infringment IS likelihood-of-confusion, and I somehow doubt that is provable in this case.


This makes it easier for plaintiffs, as they only need to prove a likelihood, and not *actual*, market confusion.

Kazuki-san wrote:

And those are factors that are taken into account, however the other factors are also taken into account. Saying the marks are similar enough mean nothing, you must prove it in court. Companies sue other companies and other people all the the time even though they have either no or shoddy legal ground to stand on.


Similarities between the mark and its usage are the most important aspects. Other factors are often taken into account when for consideration of damages in cases of registered trademarks. There are actually more considerations courts may look at when considering monetary damages...these are just most common. When seeking only an injunction against further use, the standards are much lower.

Kazuki-san wrote:

In any case, the stupid thing looks nothing like Doraemon, except that they are both cats that are standing up.


Well, that's opinion, and that's fine. Very Happy
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:19 pm Reply with quote
s_j wrote:

It does not mean they do not have the trademark, nor that the trademark is unenforceable without it (i.e. injunctions may still be granted by the court.)

That's the problem. US Trademark law does not apply internationally. In the US you can have common law rights to a trademark, but these rights extend only to the geographic region of use and a limited area of market expansion beyond that. If you want anything more than that you must get a national trademark through the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Common law trademark rights do not apply Internationally, meaning Shogakukan does not have them. Also, if they do not currently own an International Trademark to the image of Doraemon, they WILL have to apply either to WIPO or to the USPTO office themselves. Furthermore, the US must be listed as a country that Shogakukan wishes to have protection in. At that point, the USPTO still has the right to deny protection.
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s_j



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 162
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:15 pm Reply with quote
Ah, this might seem murky at first, but it's really not...

1. The Doraemon mark IS used within the U.S.. It's not hard to find legally-imported Doraemon-labled products in most Japan-towns in the U.S..

By having any dealings with a foreign country automatically qualifies the business as 'Interstate Commerce' (I know it says 'Interstate,' but it really also covers 'International'). So they automatically are eligible for federal trademark protection.

2. US trademark laws may not extend past its borders, but it DOES offer the same minimal protections to foreign interests. Any foreign entity may still file a trademark suit in the US, even without registering in the US. Not having a registered federal trademark simply means that the burden of proof is on the plaintiff, and they have the minimal protection of US trademark law in court. Keyword is *minimal protection,* not *no protection.* Maximum protection involves monetary awards.

Bottom line is, registration is not required for an injunction, even for foreign trademarks.

3. So, I think the only thing we can all agree on is that if Shogakukan does bring suit, there is NO way they will collect any monetary damages. But that's not their motivation, imo.
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