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The Anime Economy - Part 1: Let's Make An Anime!


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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23769
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:26 pm Reply with quote
Ahhhhhhhhh, that's the stuff. I literally cannot get enough of this kind of background information and I eagerly await the other two installments. Thank you, Justin and thank you ANN!
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Jacut



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 140
Location: Paris, France
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:29 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Lord Geo wrote:


The funny thing is that the R1 anime industry doesn't want to seemingly wait.


How many businesses do you know of that are super comfortable taking a loss on a product for years after release?


This is a heavily Anglo-Saxon connoted business remark (not that it's wrong or anything, I have a business degree from an American business school and did half of my studies using this point of view), but most European companies seem to be more comfortable waiting for success and Asian companies often don't mind at all taking losses as long as they believe they will one day be profitable. It's more of a cultural thing actually, and I strongly believe the Asian way of doing business is the right one on this point (but God knows how irritating it may be on others Wink).
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:10 pm Reply with quote
configspace wrote:

Like already mentioned, the break even manabi line of 2,000 copies is a myth, and despite the fact that Nichijou is higher cost in terms of more tweened frames (though certainly not more detailed or more complex), the fact that at ~4k copies "doesn't come close to breaking even" is still not a good sign.


Right. I've never put much stock in the supposed "Manabi Line" and couldn't even remember the number it was supposed to be until it was mentioned in this thread. If there was ever any truth to it, I would think that was on the low end and that the move to HD would have kicked up the number even for those.


Quote:
If we then speculate that ok, Nichijou = twice the cost, therefore, 4k is the minimum break even line (going by his statement of "not even close"), that still leaves most other anime doing poorly in the first year at least if you look at sales figures, like R-15's and all others like it.


I don't remember what R-15's sales were like, but that seemed like a show that would be on the low to average end of the budget continuum and would probably give a better idea of where a break even point is for the average show.


But another big question is how the sales numbers we get to see correlates to the actual number sold. Because those numbers are (presumably) like BookScan and VidScan and are based on only a portion of stores reporting sales. Which means more are getting sold than what is being reported publically. So my question for Justin is, if you're able and willing to answer it, when you say the Manabi line/2000 number is "ludicrously low", are you referring to the actual number sold (the kind of numbers that I assume only people inside the company or industry get to see) or the numbers that get reported in the weekly sales ranking?


Quote:

But I'm sure we'll get hard numbers in Justin's next report


I hope so. Or at least some sort of interesting new hard information about how things work. I'm not counting on too many hard numbers or at least ones that haven't been stated publicly already, since I assume Justin is not able to give out that kind of information. Though perhaps he can give a few examples with hard numbers if he doesn't give the show's title or anything that makes it identifiable.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
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Location: Towson, Maryland
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:10 pm Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
Like already mentioned, the break even manabi line of 2,000 copies is a myth, and despite the fact that Nichijou is higher cost in terms of more tweened frames (though certainly not more detailed or more complex), the fact that at ~4k copies "doesn't come close to breaking even" is still not a good sign.


I was under the impression that the Manabi line was 3k, since the first volume sold 2900 copies.

As seen here, they have Manabi Line at 3-4k:

-Less than 1000: Complete failure for late night anime, but is common among mainstream/daytime anime, which rely on other methods to produce revenue such as ratings and merchandising. Examples of this would be Naruto, Bleach, OP, Fairy Tale, Detective Conan, and most noitaminA slot anime.

-1000-2000: Pretty much same as above. Some examples of recent late night anime that bombed like this would be LOLH, B Gata H Kei, and Ookami-san.

-2000-3000: Still a failure, but the show has at least some fans but didn't sale well for various reasons, whether they be not enough hype, relatively boring plot, or too :deep:. Some recent examples would be Occult Gakuin, Shin Koihime Musou, and UraBoku.

-3000-4000: This is around break even point for most anime, or as 2ch calls it, the Manabi line. It's not exactly a failure, since no money was lost, but it's not successful or a hit either, since no money was made. An example of this would be Arakawa Under the Bridge and Ichiban Ushiro.

-4000-5000: This is around where you start to see profit being made. Anime that sale in this area aren't what you would call hits, but it's still a decent accomplishment for late night anime. Recent examples are Ikkitousen Xtreme Xecutor and Mayoi Neko Overrun. An older one is all seasons of Zero no Tsukaima.

-5000-6000: This is where some of the more prominent anime among the niche market sale. By that, I mean the more memorable titles of a year. They aren't exactly hits in the sense that they're known among outside of otaku circles, but within them they're common names. Recent examples are Motto To LOVE-Ru, Hyakka Ryouran Samurai Girls, Amagami SS, and Kissxsis here.

-6000-7000: Very good for late night anime. Once again, not hits, but they're doing very well and are moderately popular among the niche market of otaku. This is still within the realm of the 5000-6000 area. Here you have your Seitokai Yakuindomo, BakaTest, and Sekirei ~Pure Engagement~.

-7000-8000: This is where you start to go from being niche within a niche to being broadly popular within the otaku niche. Could be considered a hit among otaku, although this is a sort of gray area in the the sense most anime don't sale exactly in this range, they're either with the 5000-7000 range or skip into double digits. The only anime that comes to my mind immediately that sales in this range are Katanagatari and HOTD.

-8000-10000: This is where you start to see the most memorable anime over years sale, extremely good for late night anime and a mile stone. Still a bit hesitant to call series in this area hits, but their at least extremely successful. The first DARKER THAN BLACK and Sengoku BASARA seasons sold in this area.

-10000-12000: Where you start to see anime staple marks at. These are the series that even people who aren't otaku will at least have seen or heard of somewhere. This are is ambiguous in the sense that stuff that sales higher initially end up here from sales tapering off a bit. Anime in this are usually have initial sales of around 15000-16000 or higher. Stuff like Strike Witches, Durarara!!, and the first season of Toaru Majutsu no Index end up here after the first few volumes. Toradora! and both seasons of Shakugan no Shana sold around this area. DARKER THAN BLACK: Ryuusei no Gemini also sold here.

-12000-15000: Most anime that end up in the 10000-12000 range overall start out selling around here. As stated above, first season of Index and both seasons of Strike Witches started out here. First season of Hakuouki and Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood also sale around this range. Sengoku BASARA Two sales in this area.

-15000-20000: Pretty much same as above.

-20000-30000: Durarara and Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood started out in this area but tapered off later on. This area is ambiguous in the sense that the only anime that consistently stay in this area over every volume are heavily otaku supported. Still, some of the most popular anime sales around here. Toaru Kagaku no Railgun, Azumanga Daioh, and Fate/stay night are the only anime I can think of that consistently sold in this range.

-30000-50000: Godly and legendary. This is where the household name or super popular otaku anime sale. First Fullmetal Alchemist, Macross Frontier, Code Geass, Gundam 00, Haruhi, Angel Beats!, Lucky Star!, K-ON!, etc.

-50000-80000: Nearly impossible. Only TV series that have sold here are Bakemonogatari, Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica, and Gundam SEED.


Last edited by RyanSaotome on Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fifth B



Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Posts: 213
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:10 pm Reply with quote
Fascinating stuff. I've always been interested in how production committees com together, how much influence the original artist (theoretically) has, and how exactly these various parties try to turn a profit. Excellent article, and, as I go nuts for numbers, I'm really looking forward to the next one!
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Dynamic A



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 39
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:17 pm Reply with quote
Thanks for the work on this and the two subsequent articles on the industry.

As another poster said earlier, this first one may not have held many surprises for people who have been following the industry (and particularly ANN and the ANNCast) for awhile, but it is well written, concise, and very useful as a reference piece.

I look forward to the next two! We definitely appreciate the work you've put in on this one!

-DA
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Macron One



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:28 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
One longtime anime executive estimated that, given enough time, a good 70% of all anime eventually turn a profit. This happens over years of TV reruns, back catalog DVD sales, and re-releases internationally. The process is seldom rewarded quickly.



I kinda wonder if this is still accurate nowadays. In Japan, the majority of anime series produced are aired late at night and the TV channels are paid to air them, right? Reruns are also presumably mostly limited to shows that are already succesfull, so i can't imagine an underperforming series ever benefitting significantly from TV re-airings as a source of income.

Similarly, anime DVD/BD releases tend to do the majority of their lifetime sales within the first week. After the first month, sales drop to almost nothing. The high pricetag of anime releases in Japan doesn't promote blind-buying, so once the hardcore fans have secured theirs, these discs aren't going to be moving very many copies at all.

As for international licensing... well, it is far from the goldmine it used to be back in the boom years.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
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Location: Katy, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:32 pm Reply with quote
This is rather an amazing article you wrote there ANN. I now gain more knowledge about how anime industry then I was few years ago. Can't wait for Part 2 and 3, keep it up.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:35 pm Reply with quote
Macron One wrote:
Similarly, anime DVD/BD releases tend to do the majority of their lifetime sales within the first week. After the first month, sales drop to almost nothing. The high pricetag of anime releases in Japan doesn't promote blind-buying, so once the hardcore fans have secured theirs, these discs aren't going to be moving very many copies at all.


Index II - 90.1%
Strike Witches II - 89.4%
OreImo - 88.2%
AnoHana - 86.5%
Infinite Stratos - 86.4%
Angel Beats! - 86.0%
Railgun - 81.9%
---
Bakemonogatari - 78.7%
K-ON! - 78.3%
Durarara!! - 75.6%
Haruhi (2k9) - 72.4%
Working!! - 72.4%

Those are some popular animes first week sales versus total sales they ended up having, going by 2chs analysis based on official sales numbers released and monthly charts. I don't see them making much money down the line on actual DVD saves.
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7580
Location: Wales
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:38 pm Reply with quote
Found that story. Cannot find a copy online outside of Google Books though:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ce4uTsv-3e4C&pg=PA11
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lem



Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 734
Location: Land of trying to figure sht out
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:48 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
In other cases, a media company will set about creating a new original work that can potentially make money in any number of ways: a popular show can be used to sell toys and model kits, or perhaps the company is really trying to sell a card game (like with Yu-Gi-Oh!). More often, their goal is to simply sell as many DVDs as possible.


So this explains why the show FREEDOM, at times, felt like a rather expensive instant soup commercial to me. Laughing

Quote:
But more often than not, the director just blows his deadlines, causing the entire production to run late. There have been incidents where the final master tape shows up at the TV studio only hours before it airs! Sometimes the production delays get so bad, the producer has no choice but to allow a hastily-edited recap episode to be inserted, buying the crew an extra week. (Recap episodes are seldom planned, and usually indicate chaos behind-the-scenes.)


and this is probably what happened with a show like Chobits? now it all makes sense.


Quote:
No mother dreams of having an ugly baby, and yet ugly babies are born with astonishing regularity. Likewise, no producer dreams of making a terrible show, and yet they happen all the time. These days, most producers are rather hands-off when it comes to the creative decisions behind a show -- they often haven't gone to film or animation school, and so they'd much rather leave that to the talent.


and yet I've still managed to adopt hundreds of these ugly babies in my time as fan. Shocked Very Happy

Fascinating, informative article. Much appreciated, looking forward to the next ones.
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Stark700



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Posts: 11762
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:58 pm Reply with quote
Very interesting article to read. I would definitely love to make my own anime someday.

The profit/loss part is definitely something to consider about as it indeed takes years to generate profit revenue depending on its successes in DVD sales, re-runs, etc

Can't wait for next part
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:58 pm Reply with quote
Macron One wrote:

I kinda wonder if this is still accurate nowadays. In Japan, the majority of anime series produced are aired late at night and the TV channels are paid to air them, right? Reruns are also presumably mostly limited to shows that are already succesfull, so i can't imagine an underperforming series ever benefitting significantly from TV re-airings as a source of income.

Similarly, anime DVD/BD releases tend to do the majority of their lifetime sales within the first week. After the first month, sales drop to almost nothing. The high pricetag of anime releases in Japan doesn't promote blind-buying, so once the hardcore fans have secured theirs, these discs aren't going to be moving very many copies at all.


But most (or a lot, at least) shows get box set re-releases eventually. Those could make a difference and could be filed under "back catalog DVD sales". The issues you mention above have been true of most anime (that people generally care about; i.e. not Sazae-san, Pretty Cure and similar shows) for the past decade or so as far as I can tell, and I assume Justin got that 70% number sometime relatively recently, say, within the last 5 years. Those things wouldn't have changed much or at all since then.

However....

Quote:
As for international licensing... well, it is far from the goldmine it used to be back in the boom years.


This has. Japan has to be recouping much less in international licensing than they used to do due to the R1 anime market bubble bursting. And then there's the exchange rate, which would also likely have hurt them in that regard. That's why I'm curious when Justin got that 70% number. If he got that number before or just after the R1 bubble burst and international licensing was a big part of what made shows profitable "eventually", then that number could be a lot lower today.
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Banjo



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:21 pm Reply with quote
looking forward for next parts Cool
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superdry



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:34 pm Reply with quote
Macron One wrote:

The high pricetag of anime releases in Japan doesn't promote blind-buying, so once the hardcore fans have secured theirs, these discs aren't going to be moving very many copies at all.


Why blind-buy when there is a good chance you can watch a bunch of currently airing shows on TV? If you're already paying for cable and/or satellite channels to watch anime, you should have a good idea of what shows you like and want to buy.

Blind-buying seems to be mostly a R1 (possibly international, outside parts of Asia that might license and show stuff on TV) phenomenon because historically, you couldn't watch many shows unless you did it illegally.
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