Forum - View topicThis Week in Anime - Was the Zodiac War Worth Fighting For?
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鏡
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Announcing your warrior names was an extremely good gag.
Jake: "Is true happiness supposed to be not giving a shit about anything? Wouldn't this conclusion be more striking if it were given to someone who started out by caring too much instead of too little?" So I think Rat was actually a genuine cleverly written character in the end. His power works as a metaphor for his chuuni social darwinism, and I think his wish to forget an inevitable consequence of that power was thus not a comment on the nature of true happiness, but a pointed condemnation of his philosophy as vacuous and untenable. His views are revealed by their contradiction by his wish as exactly what Monkey implied they were - the ramblings of an edgy teen who was only able to say what he did because he had no real stake in what he was saying. That he didn't and was therefore able to say those things is revealed to be a natural consequence of the nature of his talent. However, as soon as he was forced to actually pick a goal to realize, he cracked under the vacuity of a philosophy that enshrines war-fighting for the sake of the nebulous "improvement" of the species where that philosophy lacks an enemy to be fought. In the end, Rat becomes exactly the kind of blissful bystander that he condemned during the Taisen, content with his decadent high school life. I vacillate on whether the show works as an anti-war message. Its decision to kill its intrepid pacifist is very confusing to me, and I'm not sure whether it's meant to be read as a tragic injustice or a natural consequence of her philosophy or something else. I think the most charitable interpretation of the show's stance on war is that it emphasizes war's indifference to the causes of the people fighting it and their ideas about what the war is (in turn, the charitable interpretation of Ox as a "righteous warrior" is that he was only able to call himself that because of how naturally powerful he was, not because he actually had some kind of moral high ground). I still think Monkey's death is a betrayal of her established character in that it is precisely that kind of intimate knowledge of the nature of war that is framed as the foundation of both her power and her ideology. RIP best girl. 
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MarshalBanana
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I didn't enjoy it as much as some of NisiOisins other works, but it was enjoyable.
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Dandylion
Posts: 68 |
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I still have to Watch It, and I didn't read the article ... But, out of curiosity ... Didn't they announced that the show would have a second season or something ???
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Zhou-BR
Posts: 1422 |
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It was the light novel that got a sequel. |
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Roxas4ever
 Posts: 152 |
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I walked away from Juni Taisen feeling as though it was empty and not worth the time I spent on it, but this article and the conversations it is spawning are revealing to me that it did have a few strengths/interesting points.
Also, Ox is best boy. Fight me 
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Dandylion
Posts: 68 |
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I'm Aware of the Light novel Sequel ... I mean this ---> animenewsnetwork.com/daily-briefs/2017-03-28/juni-taisen-anime-airing-this-year-is-1st-12-episode-season/.113843 It says First 12 episodes ... Implying there Will be more !!! IF, the First 12 episodes adapted the whole novel ... Maybe they are planning to adapt the upcoming sequel as well ... Last edited by Dandylion on Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ruddor
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You know, it's weird. This series was basically 12 POV episodes that were supposed to help us get us into the heads of the different characters and understand them better, yet nothing got me more invested in a character than those few seconds of Dog in the final episode. Yeah he's an experienced killer who kills with poison and drugs, but he's also a dorky dad who enjoys making breakfast for his daughter.
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Emdykay
 Posts: 85 |
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Well and I like nisiOisin and I did not like this show.
So now that it is done and I am sitting here asking myself, like a bunch of other people, so what kind of story is this show supposed to be? And I get the feeling the shows staff was asking themselves the same question, without coming to an answer till the end. Feels a lot like someone just thought "hey, this has nisiOisin on the cover, so it will have an audience based on his standing. Also it is a Battle Royale, they always sell too." Except, as pointed out, it is absolutely his thing to take a well tread genre and do something that is totally not like it. And the show just got stuck in between being nisiOisin and being standard Battle Royale fare, ending up as neither. There is a reason Shaft is doing so well at his works, providing eye candy to illustrate the monologuing and keep you busy during the characters ramblings. Here it is... just that, monolgogues and rambling, making scenes horribly slowpaced and uninteresenting, taking it to whole new extremes when the show keeps on using this method of exposition when the visuals are already doing it... talk about nisiOisin being redundant. I do not think this is a problem of his writing, but the adaption. When there is a line in a book where the character says "I am in a dark room" you adapt into a cinematographic medium showing the character in a dark room you did an appropriate adaption of the contents already, no need to repeat the line. Then taking a look at the action, which the show neither focuses on, because it does retain the flair of a dialogue heavy nisiOisin work, nor does it do it particularily well. Although the first episode was actually promising on that front, Boar tearing through mercenaries was neatly animated and entertaining to watch, but sadly the quality deteriorated quickly. Then there are the badly written, dull and underdeveloped characters on top of it. I would really like to know if some of those lines in the show were actually quotes or at least closely adapted from the novel, because some are just terrible and shallow, I definetly expect more from an author of this caliber. "I dont have to think about anything when drinking!" Yeah right. Seriously is that just a case of whoever was handling the shows script trying (and failing) to compress longer monologues into the shows runtime or is it actually nisiOisins writing? And while I like to defend his writing in general, I am not sure if I should here, because the way the story is structured from the get go, as explained a hundredfold already, is not all that appealing and exciting. Maybe this just was one of his weaker works, topped of with a weak adaption. Thus in conclusion the show ended up being simply dull and uninteresting, which leads me to agree with Jakes sentiment that a show portaying something, it does not necessarily need to be war, as pointless, terrible or utterly unenjoyable in some way has to fullfill those negative qualities as well. And Jūni Taisen absolutely fails at being a compelling and entertaining story. You know, Fate Zero wasnt the most enjoyable and productive weekend for the people involved either, it still was a fascinating and thrilling story. And sadly we are not done here, because I have not even started about the themes of the show. Or at least what I think those were. Again I am not sure if the creators knew either. Everything that would be reasonable and consistent in itself is kind of a stretch, I really can not get a handle on it. So the best take I can get from this is that the show is supposed to criticize other Battle Royale stories themes and viewers expectations of them. As Jake pointed out there is little consequence or relevance to the characters philosophies, motivation or actions to the outcome of the story, because that is the point. You do not win a battle or in extension a war, like most shows of the genre want you to believe, by some kind of correct morality, because you are super effing determined or accumulated the biggest harem throughout the proceedings, but because you are more powerful. Rabbit, as completly flat monster comes so far beacuse his necromancy is damn efficient, Ox comes that far because he is damn good at chopping people to little bits and Rat wins not because of his attitude or his relation to the Jūni Taisen, but because he has a game breaking ability. And the next point being that such a tournament or any bloody conflict is kind of shit, even if you are an edgy teen who thinks his boring high school life is really lame and would much rather participate in a death game. Thus our edgelords final wish is the anticlimactic desire to go back to said decadent and boring everyday life. Those points would be perfectly fine, even if they sure as hell are not going to change the world, if I could actually be sure that is what I was supposed to take away from this. Do I have to explain why it is usually not a good thing if I totally do not know what a show was trying to tell me? And thus we arrive at the conclusion: Lame story, mediocre production, unclear themes, equals bad show. Last edited by Emdykay on Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:02 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Calico
Posts: 383 |
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Viz has been offering the manga on their website, so I've been keeping up with it there. It pretty much runs into the same problems that the article describes. It has the advantage of going through the material much faster, what with two chapters going through the equivalent material in maybe five minutes rather than twenty, but it's still not good material. There isn't really any reason to get invested in it, what with the characters dying in a predictable order and the deaths pretty much all occurring because someone underestimated their opponent.
Though I have a question: Is Dog not a child trafficker in this? In his chapter of the manga, it's revealed that the daycare job was a front for finding children to sell off to organizations. Judging from how everyone liked that brief moment he got in the finale, I'm guessing not? |
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relyat08
 Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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I thought the themes here were as obvious as they could possibly be, personally. To me it's a series about characters who's lives are one by one destroyed by war, conflict, and hatred. Their humanity is taken from them and the cycle of violence continues as they themselves perpetuate it for generations. To me the thematic intentions of this series were to outline how our environment shapes us and how we perpetuate it. Specifically how war and conflict destroy people(this can be take to broader levels such as how we interact with the people around us, on social media, irl, etc), but on the flip side, thanks to NisiOisin's understanding of empathy, how righteousness and goodness can in turn create their own cycles and inspire goodness and righteousness in others. Monkey's actions saved lives, even Dragon and Snake's unintentional righteousness inspired others to do good, Ox inspired Tiger and it was his one good deed for her that eventually led to her willingness to sacrifice herself for him. This show, to me, was about how humanity goes through cycles perpetuated by itself. We can either perpetuate those of hate and war, or we can inspire goodness, thoughtfulness, and all that corny sh*t. It's up to us. As Ox would say, you have to intend to do the right thing, and then do it. Personally, I loved what it was trying to say.
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I have seen most of the Monogatari series, so I would like to think I have a good eye for picking up the themes, and I think a kind of flaw with this one was that for the author it was kind of bleak. I was saying in the Series Discussion thread, but the big theme I pick is not something directly related to war as some might think on the war is bad way, but specifically about failure.
Pretty much all the characters have some specific plans that can rely on their real strength they have in the fight, and then turns right on them and fails. Boar believes that she has all the right to be confident, she has earned title as a strong contender and in a drawn out battle she is going to win via her infinite bullets, but dies straight away. Dog I think considered himself vert apt at playing the lone wolf role or being able to use a sweet seeming thing to his advantage, but the second he gives her a hand he is down. Rooster believes that she can trust in her harmless appearance and then turn with ruthlessness, but when the time comes she stops from the ruthless act and puts her life on the line to help others. Monkey believes that words can be powerful and can help others, comes across someone who cares not for words and gets made into a dangerous weapon for the worst one. Sheep believes his one strength is experience where he can accurately predict ability, and then totally lets his guard down in very much underestimating someone. Horse believes his strength in simply his hard and strong body from his own work, and then puts himself into a situation where that meant nothing. Snake maybe thought advantage form someone watching his back, but meant nothing when they both looked away, and the one doing it did not actually care. Dragon thought he could simply watch from above, but is totally blindsided in an instant. Rabbit, well he wanted :friends, but it was the work of one of those friends that gave the opening, Monkey could kind of plan it. Tiger you maybe could say succeeded at something, but her deal was that she wanted to show off the person she became to Ox, but he did not recognise her. And Ox I think said something about wanting to be strong from that girl, but it was kind of a moment of weakness of his that got her killed. The only one who ended up winning was someone who experienced 99 failures, right along his single win. And although he expressed grievance at people who only knew peace, I think that you could explain it as hatred of people who stayed ignorant of the truths of the world like wars, they were not truly learning from all those failures that were real conflict, and it frustrated him who had to go into those conflicts. And that is what makes it so ironic that in the end turned on that and decided to forget. For all his talk he did not want to remember his failures, and did not want to think about all of the failures of a wish he could have got granted, or simply failed to grant properly, that he failed to even have a proper wish. Rat was afraid of failure, and was everything he criticised other people of kept their ignorance. The running theme was failure, the conclusion that people ether fail to learn from them, or really do not want to do as such, even if one acts like they do. Rat refused to actually learn from any failures, from himself or others, and chose to not think about it at all. It is like an incredibly bleak image of what humans can accomplish, and how it actually does come to being about war, that explaining that the reason we still have wars is that we refuse to actually learn from the past, to learn from failures, all so we can be a little more happy than have to think and work for change. |
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relyat08
Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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I don't think that's what it was trying to say at all. I think that it was actually remarkably optimistic and empathetic. As I noted in my comment above yours, to me, it was more about how humanity learns and builds on their environment and we can perpetuate this cycle of hatred, violence, and war(like you said a reason we have war is that we aren't learning from our past and we don't intend to deliberately do the right thing as much as we should), or we can perpetuate and inspire cycles of goodness and righteousness. There were enough situations in this show where people were either broken by negative experiences that taught them to behave in reckless, selfish, dangerous ways, or reacted positively to other Good-Samaritan-esque behavior that it seemed to me to be an obvious thematic point about how we are created by our an environment and we can create a better environment and a better future by intentionally doing deeds of good, or we can do the opposite. And then we literally have Ox giving a lecture on this exact phenomenon in episode 9-10 and then being saved by the person he saved later in the series. I really think, thematically, it was incredibly obvious, personally. I'm amazed people came away with such wildly different, mixed, or negative opinions. I think peoples' interpretations are probably more indicative of who they are as people rather than what the show was trying to say here. If you're misanthropic maybe it's easier to come out thinking this show had a negative message, where as for me, it was very obviously positive and optimistic. As a very staunch proponent of Death of the Author though, that's totally fine. Media is meant to be interpretive and personal. |
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Emdykay
Posts: 85 |
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Well it is still fairly telling though, when people have such different interpretations of a show, especially one that I do not think was designed to be super open to interpretation or ambiguous, thus Death of the Author notwithstanding being a suboptimal effort, as I do believe this show was trying to tell me something fairly concise... trying^^ |
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relyat08
Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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^Maybe. I think it's fair to think that NisiOisin failed to convey what he was trying to convey, but I don't think he did, personally. I think most of the backlash toward this series has come from it not being what the audience wanted, which has led to a lot of misinterpretations, in addition to just not being satisfied with the narrative choices that he made.
On the other hand, I've always been a fan of this kind of material, and have always been a fan of NisiOisin, so I guess I had the benefit of more or less knowing exactly how to decipher his thematic voice and knowing what to expect from the series. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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If that was the conclusion, then why was it that the person who won could only be explained as True Neutral. His path to success might have come from following Monkey in the beginning and taking advantage of something of hers, but it was he who came out of a battle between sides which could be Neutral Good and Chaotic Evil. He didn't use his wish to change anything, not conflicts around the world, not even to actually change his situation from the beginning. If anything it was fears that he could not live up to the legacy of the good runners in the fight that may have pushed him more to forgetting seeing them dying, and what wishes he could have made. Indeed the series said that people can be inspired by good things, and become good people. But what is important is the conclusion, and the conclusion truly was a true Neutral choice of ignorance. The thing the Rat had actually accused the people in his class as committing in having no idea of problems in the world.
Sorry to tell you, but I am actually a pretty optimistic guy, I may not be a social person but am hardly misanthropic. No, I am saying that this is exactly the sort of thing that NisiOisin can run as the lesson of the day in his stories. The hero wins, but he learns some problem about himself that questions if this was even a win. Only my argument with things like much of Monogatari is that the character actually learned that lesson rather than forgetting it completely, like it actually being their choice to do that, and learning nothing from the experience. There is no choice for greater good, none that a person might not want but is still by his code or the good of another to grow. If there was any facing of demons, it was that he talked about dislike of protection of areas of where people have grown complacent with peace, and it is not like he decided to create more peace for others, but that he accepted himself into that happy ignorance. Focusing on just the other bit is like focusing just on the relationship between Koyomi and his interactions with Kiss Shot, rather than the end of the Kizumonogatari movies which underpins their entire relationship. On all their surface level actions in stories that always have a truth at the end that strip away the things they are doing just because "it is the right way to act", and the end be a sort of selfish act. Whether it what you think is better for others, better for yourself, that you could most live with, or what most fits the idea of justice. Choosing which of those is that "right thing", is kind of how all of his stories end, they are important. And thing that Rat chooses is happy ignorance. |
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