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Answerman - How Is A Dub Made in 5.1 When The Japanese Version Isn't?


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cbm80



Joined: 23 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:46 pm Reply with quote
Almost all Funimation TV series disk releases are 5.1. I assume they are upmixes (made with what??) since the alternative would be labor intensive and require raw materials that may not be available. But I don't know. Others like Sentai and Aniplex always release 2 channel.

If somebody actually knows what Funimation is doing I'd be interested to hear.
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MarshalBanana



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:26 pm Reply with quote
Unless my packaging is lying to me, Samurai Champloo and Ergo proxy both have JP 5.1. Though it seems to end there as both Michiko & Hatchin doesn't and Samurai Flamenco won't tell me its version.
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Greed1914



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:49 pm Reply with quote
cbm80 wrote:
Almost all Funimation TV series disk releases are 5.1. I assume they are upmixes (made with what??) since the alternative would be labor intensive and require raw materials that may not be available. But I don't know. Others like Sentai and Aniplex always release 2 channel.

If somebody actually knows what Funimation is doing I'd be interested to hear.


Aniplex doesn't even do 5.1 when it already exists. The blu-ray re-release of Read or Die didn't have it, even though the Geneon DVDs did.
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chronoclast



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:03 pm Reply with quote
I've never been blown away by the English 5.1 upmixes that Funimation commonly do and other companies have done in the past. Funi's upmixes don't really sound that much better to me than just using Pro-Logic on an AVR. I'm kinda surprised they still bother these days as none of the other companies do them anymore.

MarshalBanana wrote:
Unless my packaging is lying to me, Samurai Champloo and Ergo proxy both have JP 5.1. Though it seems to end there as both Michiko & Hatchin doesn't and Samurai Flamenco won't tell me its version.


Ergo Proxy is one of the uncommon TV series that had a native Japanese 5.1 mix produced for it.

Champloo on the other hand is native stereo. The Japanese 5.1 mix found on the US releases is an upmix. The Geneon DVDs also have the original Japanese stereo audio but the Funimation BDs are missing it IIRC.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:45 pm Reply with quote
Yeah I would rather Funi go like Sentai and just stick with 2.0 like the original Japanese track. That would give them extra space on disc that could be used for more critical video bitrate.
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Tony K.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:52 pm Reply with quote
I'm one of those snobs that hates faux-5.1. It makes the dub sound hollow and tinny through the center channel and is a huge reason I don't listen to a lot of FUNi's dubs (as well old ADV ones), save for the occasional native 5.1 mixes (which actually sound quite awesome in comparison!). The least they could do is also offer an English 2.0 option as well. Nothin' wrong with stereo.
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NJ_



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:25 am Reply with quote
cbm80 wrote:
Almost all Funimation TV series disk releases are 5.1. I assume they are upmixes (made with what??) since the alternative would be labor intensive and require raw materials that may not be available. But I don't know. Others like Sentai and Aniplex always release 2 channel.


Because Sentai knows better now, back in the ADV days, they were doing their own 5.1 upmixes for a while and each of them sounded bad. This included releases like Elfen Lied, their redub of Gatchaman (which thankfully is 2.0 on the BDs and sounds fine) and even their old remaster of Robotech.

Tony K. wrote:
I'm one of those snobs that hates faux-5.1. It makes the dub sound hollow and tinny through the center channel and is a huge reason I don't listen to a lot of FUNi's dubs (as well old ADV ones), save for the occasional native 5.1 mixes (which actually sound quite awesome in comparison!). The least they could do is also offer an English 2.0 option as well. Nothin' wrong with stereo.


They used to offer their dubs in 5.1 & 2.0 but that was back in the DVD singles days.

I do agree that 5.1-only does suck, especially when FUNi's mixing is a mess where it's usually very low except during important moments where the music starts getting very loud.
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Kadmos1



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:03 am Reply with quote
Tony K. wrote:
I'm one of those snobs that hates faux-5.1. It makes the dub sound hollow and tinny through the center channel and is a huge reason I don't listen to a lot of FUNi's dubs (as well old ADV ones), save for the occasional native 5.1 mixes (which actually sound quite awesome in comparison!). The least they could do is also offer an English 2.0 option as well. Nothin' wrong with stereo.

Tony K., long time no see (for me seeing on the forums).
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dragonrider_cody



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:57 am Reply with quote
Tony K. wrote:
I'm one of those snobs that hates faux-5.1. It makes the dub sound hollow and tinny through the center channel and is a huge reason I don't listen to a lot of FUNi's dubs (as well old ADV ones), save for the occasional native 5.1 mixes (which actually sound quite awesome in comparison!). The least they could do is also offer an English 2.0 option as well. Nothin' wrong with stereo.


I completely agree. They are almost always off balance. The music and effects are way too loud and drown out the dialogue. I often have to boost my center channel to hear the characters properly.

If you’re not going to do a true 5.1 mix, don’t bother. If I want fake 5.1, I can set my receiver to do that and get more balanced sound.
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Levonr



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:20 am Reply with quote
dragonrider_cody wrote:

I completely agree. They are almost always off balance. The music and effects are way too loud and drown out the dialogue. I often have to boost my center channel to hear the characters properly.

If you’re not going to do a true 5.1 mix, don’t bother. If I want fake 5.1, I can set my receiver to do that and get more balanced sound.


Well I completely disagree. With proper audio setup the dialog in very loud on my 5.2.2 Atmos setup. Those that complain about not hearing voices in center need to adjust their settings correctly or get a better setup. The voices are extremely loud & very clear for me, FUNimation's balance is perfect on my setup.
They are true 5.1 mixes. There is a misunderstanding here. They aren't upmix or fake 5.1 so I don't know why I keep seeing that, were past the early 2000's Manga Entertainment trash upmixes. FUNimation makes native 5.1 mix like all multichannel mixes are created, using the separate materials(voice, music, sound effects).
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Just Passing Through



Joined: 04 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:22 am Reply with quote
Levonr wrote:
the early 2000's Manga Entertainment trash upmixes.


I've got a wodge load of these discs. Manga Ent UK would take the stereo audio, and upmix it to DD5.1 and DTS 5.1 for both languages, and they released quite a few two disc volumes that way, DD 5.1 on on disc, DTS on the other. Ghost in the Shell SAC was like that. But sometimes they'd stick it all on one disc. You have Otogi Zoshi volumes with five episodes, an hour of extras, English and Japanese DD 2.0, 5.1 and DTS 5.1, and the surprising thing is that the image still doesn't look like a VCD, it's still watchable. The first few Naruto discs are like that too. Stereo is the way to go on those discs, as the surround is awful.
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Levonr



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:29 am Reply with quote
Just Passing Through wrote:

I've got a wodge load of these discs. Manga Ent UK would take the stereo audio, and upmix it to DD5.1 and DTS 5.1 for both languages, and they released quite a few two disc volumes that way, DD 5.1 on on disc, DTS on the other. Ghost in the Shell SAC was like that. But sometimes they'd stick it all on one disc. You have Otogi Zoshi volumes with five episodes, an hour of extras, English and Japanese DD 2.0, 5.1 and DTS 5.1, and the surprising thing is that the image still doesn't look like a VCD, it's still watchable. The first few Naruto discs are like that too. Stereo is the way to go on those discs, as the surround is awful.


The worst are when they took old 90's dubs and upmixed them. The Guyver OVA for example.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:00 am Reply with quote
Levonr wrote:
Well I completely disagree. With proper audio setup the dialog in very loud on my 5.2.2 Atmos setup. Those that complain about not hearing voices in center need to adjust their settings correctly or get a better setup. The voices are extremely loud & very clear for me, FUNimation's balance is perfect on my setup.
They are true 5.1 mixes. There is a misunderstanding here. They aren't upmix or fake 5.1 so I don't know why I keep seeing that, were past the early 2000's Manga Entertainment trash upmixes. FUNimation makes native 5.1 mix like all multichannel mixes are created, using the separate materials(voice, music, sound effects).

You can't create true 5.1 mix if the original Japanese M&E tracks are stereo. Only your dub voice channels will be 5.1 and the vast majority of the time it will or should be positioned same as stereo anyways. The only way you can create a native 5.1/7.1 etc mix is if you have the original audio stems i.e. each sound effect on its own track, not mixed together. And they are most certainly not getting that since the originals aren't produced that way either.
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Levonr



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:40 am Reply with quote
configspace wrote:

You can't create true 5.1 mix if the original Japanese M&E tracks are stereo. Only your dub voice channels will be 5.1 and the vast majority of the time it will or should be positioned same as stereo anyways. The only way you can create a native 5.1/7.1 etc mix is if you have the original audio stems i.e. each sound effect on its own track, not mixed together. And they are most certainly not getting that since the originals aren't produced that way either.


No, they can take a sound effect & move it. You don't need every sound effect isolated to make a 5.1 mix. Like Justin said, it is an art. FUNimation 5.1 are actual 5.1 mixes but the quality depends on the mixer crafting it. That's really what matters, like how they pan the sound effects is an important one.
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DangerMouse



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:26 am Reply with quote
I LOVE that Funimation goes through the trouble of doing real 5.1 tracks for their shows. The show itself is of course the primary thing to make me buy the discs but once I do they are one of my favorite features of Funimation's releases compared to the other publishers since I watch my discs on my main TV with my surround sound system like I'd watch a movie.

Like he said, and since I don't watch anime on my phone like a lot of people do these days lol (though obviously I do stream the simulcasts/simuldubs on my PC or TV so that'd be in stereo), a good 5.1 mix can really add a lot to a viewing experience. Smile

Since a number of Geneon titles had gotten done that way, I still wish the original Last Exile had been one of Geneon's titles to get one given that show's large scale world and airships and stuff, the sky scenes would have been perfect for it. If I remember correctly, the DVDs came out a little too early.

Greed1914 wrote:
cbm80 wrote:
Almost all Funimation TV series disk releases are 5.1. I assume they are upmixes (made with what??) since the alternative would be labor intensive and require raw materials that may not be available. But I don't know. Others like Sentai and Aniplex always release 2 channel.

If somebody actually knows what Funimation is doing I'd be interested to hear.


Aniplex doesn't even do 5.1 when it already exists. The blu-ray re-release of Read or Die didn't have it, even though the Geneon DVDs did.

In addition, like Justin said in his last example, I imagine these days most of the time they get the voice, music, and sound effects tracks all separate so they are not just upmixes and can create it while they are creating the dub track. And then like he said, it's down to the talents of the mixer and probably the show's content as well for how good it can sound.

Yeah, you're right, it's really weird that Aniplex didn't include them when they already existed. They just gave it a PCM stereo track, I remember being disappointed about that when I bought that Blu-ray set since my DVDs had the 5.1 like you said. Since one had better video and one had better audio to me lol.

Levonr wrote:
No, they can take a sound effect & move it. You don't need every sound effect isolated to make a 5.1 mix. Like Justin said, it is an art. FUNimation 5.1 are actual 5.1 mixes but the quality depends on the mixer crafting it. That's really what matters, like how they pan the sound effects is an important one.


This.

Levonr wrote:
Well I completely disagree. With proper audio setup the dialog in very loud on my 5.2.2 Atmos setup. Those that complain about not hearing voices in center need to adjust their settings correctly or get a better setup. The voices are extremely loud & very clear for me, FUNimation's balance is perfect on my setup.
They are true 5.1 mixes. There is a misunderstanding here. They aren't upmix or fake 5.1 so I don't know why I keep seeing that, were past the early 2000's Manga Entertainment trash upmixes. FUNimation makes native 5.1 mix like all multichannel mixes are created, using the separate materials(voice, music, sound effects).

Totally agree. Same here, I haven't had any trouble with any of these modern Funimation releases in ages (except of course the ones where there's been an error on the audio track).

The last time I used to have that kind of trouble with the loudness of the center voice channel fluctuating was probably on old ADV DVDs back in the day, though even that might have been down to what was probably a shitty budget store brand cheapo HTIB, that probably didn't even properly support the 5.1 decoding.
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