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Well it looks like a slight shift.

After having watched 5centimeters, distant star and places promised, I am very much so looking forward to this latest project. Should be quite interesting (and I'm hoping up to par with the quality of his past work!).

I am now convinced this man can not do a positive themed title. Another title about loss.....

hikaru004 wrote:

I am now convinced this man can not do a positive themed title. Another title about loss.....

This is most certainly a "positive[ly]-themed" work. The artwork clearly reflects that. Losses are a given in life, and we are all affected by it sooner or later; the positivity would come from the approach we take to account for and deal with such losses. Not everything can be a lovey-dovey story which ends with everyone getting everything their way - that does not truly reflect life at all. And neither were his previous works "negative" in the slightest; they dealt with human approaches to losses and how best to move on from them. Shinkai should be commended for reflecting authentic human emotions and the various faces of true life within his works rather than painting false illusions of grandeur.

Mytopia wrote:

And neither were his previous works "negative" in the slightest; they dealt with human approaches to losses and how best to move on from them.

Well, 5 cm certainly did not show how the main character had moved on. Did you not see how wrecked his life was?

Now, I could see this for Voices and Place Promised, but 5 cm/s was certainly negatively-themed and dealt with someone's refusal to move on in life and instead just pine after some random girl he knew in middle school.

Hopefully this will be more like Voices and less like 5cm.

Mytopia wrote:

Shinkai should be commended for reflecting authentic human emotions and the various faces of true life within his works rather than painting false illusions of grandeur.

Or it can be wondered if he is capable of doing something else? This will be his fourth title dealing with loss. Oshii does various works. What's Shinkai's excuse?

As my first post, I will take a guess at the title of this new anime from Makoto Shinkai.
I am ready to bet it will be called Sayonara (さよなら。)

Look carefully at the hyperlink posted on ANN Wink

Anyway, would be nice if I am right on this one! Very Happy

hikaru004 wrote:

I am now convinced this man can not do a positive themed title.

But what of Place Promised? Surely that was quite a hopeful piece, especially when compared with Voices. She and her Cat also exudes a definite optimism as it draws to a close.

Personally, a fully upbeat film (of the sort certain directors are renowned for) isn't something I would want Shinkai to dedicate his time towards. hikaru004 rightly notes that dynamic variation between films is not what the director in question excels at, though it is indeed because of this that many of his fans, such as myself, continue to take joy in his work.

Megiddo, I might suggest you watch 5 Centimeters again, or at least its ending. =x I posted some of this in the other Shinkai news item thread:

spoiler[The final chapter sometimes tricks viewers into thinking that 5CM ends with Takaki's life in shambles, but in fact it's the opposite. The chapter starts out in the PRESENT, which is depicted for only a brief minute or so. Takaki is living a healthy and relatively contented lifestyle, even smiling peacefully while on a walk. He's also shown working for himself, from the comfort of a bright and tidy apartment. This look at the present lasts up until he crosses paths with Akari.

It then switches to a look back at his adult PAST, which is almost entirely what this chapter is made up of. In this past, it is clear that Takaki can't let go of his feelings for Akari, and his life has become utterly dark. He can't maintain other relationships, his apartment becomes a mess, he's utterly depressed, and he either quits or loses his job (can't remember which). THIS is his lowpoint. But again, it's the past, and the brief look into his present shows that he has overcome this depression and has returned to a relatively normal life. During the "One More Time, One More Chance" sequence, it reverts back to the present and resolves the moment when Takaki and Akari pass each other.

(From the other thread) And I think the ending was poetic, showing that Takaki had finally been able to move on from his past with Akari. He'll never completely remove her from his memories, but he seemed to finally think back on the relationship with fondness and happiness that he had ever experienced it in the first place, rather than dwelling eternally on the fact that it had in fact come to an end. And to the viewer, we get to see that Akari still has tender memories of him as well, enough to start turning her head to look back to see if it was in fact him, even if her life had moved on to the point where she didn't/couldn't wait around for the train to pass to be sure. Such a small concession from an ex-partner, showing there's some part of her that still cares and wonders, would mean a great deal to a lot of people, I would think.

This blog here ( http://xcomp.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/another-look-at-5-centimeters-per-second-an-extended-novel-version-is-coming/ ) has a lot of good info on the dates and times of the scenes in the movie, and I think it certainly proves that the ending isn't as bleak and depressing as a lot of people tend to think it is.]

I love both the ending, and the movie itself wholeheartedly. =x

hikaru004 wrote:

Mytopia wrote:

Shinkai should be commended for reflecting authentic human emotions and the various faces of true life within his works rather than painting false illusions of grandeur.

Or it can be wondered if he is capable of doing something else? This will be his fourth title dealing with loss. Oshii does various works. What's Shinkai's excuse?

Shinkai has indeed dealt with other themes; his very first work, "She and Her Cat", is rather different from the rest, and on that point I would go on to say that all of his works are quite different within themselves: while they may indeed correlate with certain themes that Shinkai wishes to discuss or stress, they are quite distinct in their own right, as many others have attested here. Regardless of this point however, Shinkai does not need to make any "excuses" whatsoever, as he has the freedom to create and base any of his works on any theme[s] he wishes. Common or correlative themes are hardly a strange concept in direction, with numerous directors, many of whom are considered the greatest of all-time, such as Godard, Ozu and Bergman, often creating works with similar themes that habitually (and gleefully, perhaps) correlate throughout the broad base of their work. The same can be said of Osamu Tezuka and Hayao Miyazaki, and they are directors who have spanned through generations and generations. On the subject of Oshii, he has worked in anime far longer and created more works than Shinkai ever has, but even he often dwells back on common themes within many of his works, especially those with which he has had greater creative freedom. It is also quite important to mention here that Oshii has directed several adaptations of other works and not a lot of original series, while the vast majority of Shinkai's work have been original creations.

Megiddo wrote:

Mytopia wrote:

And neither were his previous works "negative" in the slightest; they dealt with human approaches to losses and how best to move on from them.

Well, 5 cm certainly did not show how the main character had moved on. Did you not see how wrecked his life was?

Now, I could see this for Voices and Place Promised, but 5 cm/s was certainly negatively-themed and dealt with someone's refusal to move on in life and instead just pine after some random girl he knew in middle school.

As I mentioned, Shinkai's works have dealt with natural human approaches to losses. As Spoofer describes so well, the film's protagonist had indeed "moved on" with his life; however, that does not mean all of his emotions or memories were erased: they can never truly be and it is unrealistic to assume as such. In that sense the film reflects life so beautifully and eloquently, it can never be "negative"; assuming as such would be ignoring the crux of the film.

Awesome, 5 Centimeters was a masterpiece, and Distant Star was excellent if a bit rough (still gotta watch Place Promised, putting it on the *to do* list). I was only just recently wondering when we might see another film from this director.

Spoofer wrote:

And I think the ending was poetic, showing that Takaki had finally been able to move on from his past with Akari.

I'll definitely go and look at this "one minute" of supposedly normal life, but I do not agree with the statement above at all. Granted I only saw 5 cm/s once because I rather disliked it (I love Voices), so I may just not remembering how it ends. If I recall right, the spoiler[guy is walking along the street, and as he passes the train tracks he sees the girl he pines for pass him going the opposite direction. As his mind finally realizes it was her, he shoots his head back to affirm it was her, but the train has come and blocks his view. He waits until the train is through but the girl has left.

Now, to me, this perfectly symbolizes what really happened. The girl has long put the past behind her and moved on in life, but the guy looks back, trying again to get the girl of his past. I can't see how it could possibly be any more obvious than that. If the director wanted to make an ending where it showed the guy had move on, it could be nearly identical, except that after looking back and seeing the train he just walks further ahead instead of waiting for it to fully pass. Now, that, to me, would show that he had moved on.]

Ah look, the apologists are here. If you appreciate his lack of range, then just say it, instead of trying to twist things to make it seem like he has greater range than he does by noting small hints of optimism or a minute of it at the end of a movie.

As I've said before, he's a talented animator and storyteller. There is no questioning that the man has a lot of potential. Unfortunately, like it or not, he has exhibited next to no talent for range and diversity. Pretty much every great director is noted for a large range of diversity, but Shinkai has not demonstrated any ability to think outside the box he built for himself. I'm sorry.

Yeah, he uses sci-fi elements in some films, or a more slice of life approach in another, but those are always just a means to tell a story that is more or less the same as the others he's told with the same general theme to it. Just because people want to see him branch out beyond this obsession with the melancholy doesn't mean they're demanding "lovey dovey" works or fairy tale endings or happily ever afters. I really hate that kind of response to a criticism. It doesn't have to be any of those things to at least explore a story option that isn't devoted to a melancholy atmosphere that centers around one specific emotion or aspect of life over and over again. It's not just that his films are all melancholy or bittersweet at best, but rather that he continuously uses the same basic element and emotion every time.

Yes, every director has themes or styles that they pretty much always incorporate. But along with those themes and styles is a large range that explores many diverse types of characters and story types and emotions and so on. No one is saying that Shinkai can't have his style, as some people seem to be implying. As usual, some fans are taking criticisms to a great extreme that the criticisms were never meant to go and overreacting, all the while missing the entire point. The primary issue isn't that he has a style, but that his style range is like the tip of a needle where as other directors show a range that is more like a football field by comparison, in spite of common style choices and elements they might use.

Shinkai uses some genre differences and setting choices that differ a bit, but his stories are otherwise almost completely identical and use identical themes and identical emotion, all the way down to an identical emotional trigger in each one. You can't even begin to compare that to the stylistic choices and common elements employed by the likes of Godard, Ozu and Bergman, or even Tezuka and Miyazaki for that matter. It's not even a close comparison in the list. Those directors all have a very different feel to their works, vastly different settings and characters with unique stories to each. Shinkais only diversity lies within a genre choice and setting, but there's not much variance in story and atmosphere beyond that, even to the point it's always directed at the same specific psychological element and emotion. It's like comparing a pinpoint laser to a flashlight in regards to how much they illuminate. It's not even a remotely fair comparison.

Now I appreciate his works, and I'll give you that "She and Her Cat" is, at least, one of his works that feels different. In my eyes though, that one only proves the point further rather than counter it. It proves that Shinkai can exhibit range and diversity with his works without sacrificing his unique style that makes something he makes uniquely his. He has great talent though, and I love his visuals and he obviously can weave a good tale and tell a good story. Unfortunately, he keeps telling a story that too specifically the same one with some thematic variance, and it's starting to get old. As I said, all directors have common themes and elements, but none of the greats are even remotely this specific. Frankly, while he has cemented himself in the technical side of things, I firmly believe he has a long ways to go before he'll achieve the status of a great or legendary directory due to his lack of range and diversity. He's going to have to branch out, or as a storyteller he's just going to come across as a one trick pony.

Last edited by Spoofer on Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:48 am; edited 1 time in total

Keonyn, this is a pretty common interpretation of the ending of 5CM by... well, most of the people who actually delve into it and think about it. I wouldn't call it "twisting" it at all.

Again, I do suggest you watch the ending one more time, Megiddo.

(5CM and Voices of a Distant Star spoilers)

spoiler[Aside from Takaki's clean apartment and evidence of his new job, which indicates that he has recovered from the depression and moved on with all the practicalities of his life, the viewer also sees him wholeheartedly smile twice. The first is while passing by the cherry tree, and there's not a hint of sadness in his face while he glances at it, which indicates to me that he's now remembering the relationship fondly instead of thinking back on it with melancholy like he had been previously in his life.

The second time is after he and Akari pass each other. Again, you're right, Takaki stands there and looks back for a while. Akari stops and looks back too, they're both looking back. The trains pass by at this moment and neither one of them is able to see the other. By the time they pass, only Takaki is still there. And again, this makes sense, as he had the more prolonged attachment to the relationship as time went on. For a brief moment, he looks hurt that she wasn't still there after they had passed. But after indulging his memories, this very quickly turns into a bittersweet smile, as he again realizes the truth of the situation and that he'll more than likely never connect with Akari again.

Aside from the very real fact that they had spent a lot of their childhood around this train intersection, one of the most important moments in their relationship involved Takaki's very long train ride to meet Akari, and this intersection most likely represents the symbolic junction of their lives together. After the two trains, travelling in opposite directions, briefly pass each other (again most likely representing the briefness of their connectedness and their different paths in life), the "stop" barrier is raised to indicate to those who had paused their lives while waiting to "go". At this moment, the camera highlights a shot of Takaki's feet, and Shinkai definitely wants the viewer to see that he is turning away from that intersection, away from their past and their relationship, and is moving forward in the direction that he was originally heading before he stopped to look back. And as he turns and continues to walk forward, his bittersweet smile turns into a full-fledged, truly happy smile without a trace of sadness or regret in it.

He has in fact, finally, been able to move on and is capable of happiness, with Akari and their brief relationship behind him.

Shinkai always uses symbolism or brief hints from earlier in his films to resolve his storylines, IIRC. From what I remember of Voices, there was only a brief shot of a newspaper that indicated survivors had been found from Mikako's fleet, and that rescue vessels had been sent. I think it was also briefly mentioned or hinted that Noboru had joined the rescue mission. So even though the last shot of Voices was of Mikako drifting helplessly in space, if you pieced together the clues from earlier in the film you know it all turned out alright.

It's the same for 5CM, IMO. It's not simply spelled out, that's for sure, but I think there's a lot more to interpret than Takaki forever being halted in his life by Akari.]

@ Keonyn: And Gathering of the Cats was different. Anime smile

;;

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