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REVIEW: Zero's Familiar [Omnibus] GN 1-3




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Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:51 pm Reply with quote
Technically, that's not what the passive voice means -- it's "Object was Verbed" (optionally: "by Subject") as opposed to "Subject Verbed Object."
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zeo1fan



Joined: 02 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:52 pm Reply with quote
Let's just call it what it is: an abusive relationship. A spade is a spade is a spade. No one would be hesitant to call it out if the genders were reversed.
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JohnnySake



Joined: 22 May 2008
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Location: Auburn Hills, MI
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:56 am Reply with quote
Hey, I'm grateful we're at least getting this released in English. Never thought it was gonna happen to begin with.
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Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:37 am Reply with quote
Shay Guy wrote:
Technically, that's not what the passive voice means -- it's "Object was Verbed" (optionally: "by Subject") as opposed to "Subject Verbed Object."


You got me. Smile This is what I get for trying to simplify.

zeo1fan wrote:
Let's just call it what it is: an abusive relationship. A spade is a spade is a spade. No one would be hesitant to call it out if the genders were reversed.


Absolutely. It's one of the things that has consistently made me question the other aspects of the franchise that I enjoy. (That and my unnatural hatred of Sierra.) I had a paragraph about that, actually, but I took it out because it was too rant-y.
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zeo1fan



Joined: 02 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:40 am Reply with quote
Princess_Irene wrote:
Shay Guy wrote:
Technically, that's not what the passive voice means -- it's "Object was Verbed" (optionally: "by Subject") as opposed to "Subject Verbed Object."


You got me. Smile This is what I get for trying to simplify.

zeo1fan wrote:
Let's just call it what it is: an abusive relationship. A spade is a spade is a spade. No one would be hesitant to call it out if the genders were reversed.


Absolutely. It's one of the things that has consistently made me question the other aspects of the franchise that I enjoy. (That and my unnatural hatred of Sierra.) I had a paragraph about that, actually, but I took it out because it was too rant-y.


I'm appreciative that you touched on it at least. Smile The implications somehow seem even worse here, though, because he's basically been summoned to an inescapable magical world with the only one to rely on being someone who constantly abuses him. Like a Lifetime movie in 2D. Rolling Eyes
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VORTIA
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Joined: 26 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:11 am Reply with quote
I've always attributed Louise's physical abuse of Saito to her culture.

Halkegenia is effectively 12th century Europe, and no one in 12th century Europe would bat an eye at a noblewoman whipping a peasant. Saito is hardly the only peasant depicted as getting the short end of the cultural stick in Zero no Tsukaima.

As a big fan of this series, Zero no Tsukaima is a story about two people coming to understand and love one another from across massive cultural barriers and widely differing self-images. Louise's whipping of Saito is just a natural outgrowth of that cultural gap.
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zeo1fan



Joined: 02 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:17 pm Reply with quote
VORTIA wrote:
I've always attributed Louise's physical abuse of Saito to her culture.

Halkegenia is effectively 12th century Europe, and no one in 12th century Europe would bat an eye at a noblewoman whipping a peasant. Saito is hardly the only peasant depicted as getting the short end of the cultural stick in Zero no Tsukaima.

As a big fan of this series, Zero no Tsukaima is a story about two people coming to understand and love one another from across massive cultural barriers and widely differing self-images. Louise's whipping of Saito is just a natural outgrowth of that cultural gap.


You're giving this story way too much credit, dude.
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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:34 pm Reply with quote
More likely, she just gets off on whipping someone.
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VORTIA
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Joined: 26 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:38 pm Reply with quote
zeo1fan wrote:

You're giving this story way too much credit, dude.


Did I not identify myself as a big fan of the series?

I think you're giving it far too little, but I don't suppose we'll ever find common ground on this issue, yes?

I happen to know the late Yamaguchi-sensei was a big European history buff, and I'm sure that played a big part in his planning for Zero no Tsukaima. Other than simply trying to make an appeal to ridicule, you really haven't demonstrated any counterpoint to my assertion.
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nargun



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 924
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:10 pm Reply with quote
VORTIA wrote:
zeo1fan wrote:

You're giving this story way too much credit, dude.


Did I not identify myself as a big fan of the series?

I think you're giving it far too little, but I don't suppose we'll ever find common ground on this issue, yes?

I happen to know the late Yamaguchi-sensei was a big European history buff, and I'm sure that played a big part in his planning for Zero no Tsukaima. Other than simply trying to make an appeal to ridicule, you really haven't demonstrated any counterpoint to my assertion.


Because it's pointless, reflects your fundamental misunderstanding of the basis of the criticism. Engaging with your points would make you think they're valid, but they're just non-sequiturs.

Look, the framing of the story reflects decisions made by the author, and decisions made by the author are subject to criticism. No? Anything can be justified in-story, because the setting of the story can be constructed essentially arbitrarilly, to justify whatever you want it to justify. All "It all makes sense in context!" actually means is that the work is self-consistent... not a huge achievement, and not something that refutes criticism.

Writing stories about settings where what-we-would-call-abuse is normalised is a choice the author made. Is a choice the author can be criticised for, is a choice that the work can be criticised for.

... on this level, Zero no Tsukaima fails because it's not reflective enough, or rather the characters aren't reflective enough. They might come from some medievalesque context, but the author who's literally putting words in their mouth didn't, and should have known better.

If you want to see something that handles the same sorts of material without falling into the problems here, I strongly recommend a look at the DearS manga -- haven't seen the anime -- where you've got characters actually thinking about the setting and critiquing it, finding some parts of it good, for them, finding other parts of it good for other people, and working to change the parts that hurt them or others. Rather than the writer just have all the characters find the status-quo the author provides for them fine and 100% [kind of suggests that the reason the author doesn't have any characters critiquing the setup the author provides is because the author can't think of any problems with it...]
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VORTIA
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Joined: 26 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:06 pm Reply with quote
nargun wrote:

Writing stories about settings where what-we-would-call-abuse is normalised is a choice the author made. Is a choice the author can be criticised for, is a choice that the work can be criticised for.


Sure.

Quote:
... on this level, Zero no Tsukaima fails because it's not reflective enough, or rather the characters aren't reflective enough. They might come from some medievalesque context, but the author who's literally putting words in their mouth didn't, and should have known better.....Rather than the writer just have all the characters find the status-quo the author provides for them fine and 100%


I totally disagree with this, and it makes me feel like you haven't watched or read all of Zero no Tsukaima. The very beauty of the story to me is Louise's evolution away from accepting what her culture expects of her into a person who is true to herself and her friends, and Saito's evolution from a self-absorbed kid into a man who stands for something. I feel like everyone who went "Oop, she pulled out a whip, here's your S&M service", and clicked off the telly did themselves a total disservice.

Quote:

If you want to see something that handles the same sorts of material without falling into the problems here, I strongly recommend a look at the DearS manga -- haven't seen the anime -- where you've got characters actually thinking about the setting and critiquing it, finding some parts of it good, for them, finding other parts of it good for other people, and working to change the parts that hurt them or others.


I'm kind of flabbergasted to have DearS held up as a counterpoint to Zero no Tsukaima on the topic of abusive relationships. I mean, I'm not going to completely knock DearS down or anything, but it was a very facile, heavyhanded one-note sci-fi trope played out as a Shonen Love Comedy. Zero no Tsukaima's on a completely different literary level.
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ConanSan



Joined: 13 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:49 am Reply with quote
Light novels are not THAT higher level, dood.
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sillyriri



Joined: 01 Apr 2011
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:25 am Reply with quote
VORTIA wrote:
I've always attributed Louise's physical abuse of Saito to her culture.

Halkegenia is effectively 12th century Europe, and no one in 12th century Europe would bat an eye at a noblewoman whipping a peasant. Saito is hardly the only peasant depicted as getting the short end of the cultural stick in Zero no Tsukaima.

As a big fan of this series, Zero no Tsukaima is a story about two people coming to understand and love one another from across massive cultural barriers and widely differing self-images. Louise's whipping of Saito is just a natural outgrowth of that cultural gap.

Assuming the fan translations are relatively accurate, I'm pretty sure there's at least one point where Louise whips Saito in front of her peers, and they're distressed and clearly think that she's going too far. Plus, if I remember correctly, later on various other characters call her out on her treatment of him too. So, while some of it could be excused by the setting, it's still clearly problematic in universe.
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VORTIA
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Joined: 26 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:37 am Reply with quote
All of the main characters in Zero no Tsukaima kind of undergo a liberal enlightenment via Saito, though. Early on, the majority of the characters hold commoners in a rather callous disregard. Guiche attempts to kill Saito for making him look bad, and when Siesta is effectively sold off into sex slavery, the primary reaction of the Halkeginian characters is "Huh, that's sad. Can't be helped!" and it is only through Saito that they ultimately come to see the injustice and find the strength to do something about it.

Of all the series' characters, it is Louise who is the most fiercely conservative. She desperately clings to her noble heritage and protocol because she's deathly afraid that without it, she's just a Zero. She expects a traditional master-servant relationship with Saito, wants to pay Henrietta the traditional respects due the Queen despite being her best friend and Henrietta insisting she shouldn't, tries to die a traditional noble's death even if it serves no purpose, all because she's desperately clawing at some shred of legitimacy.

Other characters like Kirche and Guiche have no stake in how they treat Saito. They are comfortable in their own positions, comfortable in and come to embrace Saito's unique status, and do not feel threatened by him. In knowing him they come to be more open-minded people.

For Louise, Saito is a walking invalidation of everything she's ever tried to do and be. Nearly everything he says and does undermines the fragile illusion of competence and order she's built around herself to keep out a lifetime of bullying and abuse.

It's hardly surprising that accepting Saito is harder for her than anyone else.

Is she unfairly abusing Saito to vent her personal frustrations? Absolutely, but she is also acting in a fashion her upbringing finds culturally acceptable. Society at large approves of her actions. The only brake on her behavior is her own compassion for Saito, which grows as the story goes on, and the whip disappears.

In the interest of fairness, Saito makes no effort at all initially to understand Louise's social situation and takes glee in getting her humiliated. Louise was hardly the only one being a cruel brat. The two of them were absolutely awful to one another. That they evolve later on to understand and forgive one another, and eventually become an unbreakable couple is what I like so much about this story.
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jr240483



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 4369
Location: New York City,New York,USA
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:31 pm Reply with quote
JohnnySake wrote:
Hey, I'm grateful we're at least getting this released in English. Never thought it was gonna happen to begin with.



Now all that is left is for season 2 and three to be released with an English dub. especially Princcess no Rondo .
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