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Megiddo wrote:

LordRedhand wrote:

So why is it in one fictional event we say it's harmless and okay but another same fictional thought experiment we say it's wrong? There is a disconnect, as they should be the same

Explain this further please. I don't know if you meant it to be deliberately confusing so you could springboard from it, or if it's just unclear because there is no elaboration about it. As such, before I can accept such "disconnect", I'd need to know what it is you're trying to say here.

Ah, a Thought Experiment is a tool that we use quite often in our lives, fictional exercises that basically boil down into what ifs. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/

So taking my example we have a person view a fiction about one groping another, with the other begging please stop. They view this event as harmless and comical. Using a thought experiment they said if confronted with such a situation they would say it's wrong (The what-if you saw x? type of experiment.) This is further confounded by the defense that one is "real" and one is "fiction" (When in fact both instances are fictions.) But assuming it's true that it's harmless fiction in the example above, then we find ourselves with another problem with our fellow member. Wouldn't he laugh at another fictional instance above, like say in a porn movie for example, if it were consistent with the view of the poster's belief on fiction it would be a resounding yes as it's harmless and comical as both works have the same level of "fictional-ness" about them that they should be the same. Following through that the thought experiment is also fictional, their response should be the same but it is not, it's the exact opposite. Thus a disconnect or contradiction (Read up on Kant on opinions on contradiction. Hint: They are considered Irrational)

The differences in a thought experiment say versus a story is while both are fictions, one is tool to reach an understanding or truth about an act/yourself the other is for entertainment/inspiration. But there are some serious overlaps between the two as one can be a story and a thought experiment at the same time, and quite often are if the story is to mean anything and withstand the test of time.

Hannish Lightning wrote:

yuna49 wrote:

If you're that concerned about drawings, then what do you think of people who shoot photographs like this one and post them on the Internet? Should they be arrested? I'm guessing that there's at least one person in the world who would find this picture sexually arousing. Should we arrest him or her as well?

There's a difference from a person being sexually aroused by a picture than a picture meant to sexually arouse someone. Which, apparently you can't see the difference.

The problem is that you can't count on the law to make such exceptions.

LordRedhand wrote:

So why is it in one fictional event we say it's harmless and okay but another same fictional thought experiment we say it's wrong?

Of course people are offended by different things. That's the point. You're saying that fictional "crimes" should be punished just because some people might object to them. That means they might as well ban something you approve of just because, say, I find it disgusting (I'm sure if we compared our interests, something would come up that passes this criterion).

Ai no Kareshi wrote:

LordRedhand wrote:

So why is it in one fictional event we say it's harmless and okay but another same fictional thought experiment we say it's wrong?

Of course people are offended by different things. That's the point. You're saying that fictional "crimes" should be punished just because some people might object to them. That means they might as well ban something you approve of just because, say, I find it disgusting (I'm sure if we compared our interests, something would come up that passes this criterion).

Sigh, go back, read carefully.

The two fictional events I was referring to were the same event and the opinions given by the same person yet two different results occurred. You should also read up thought experiments as when I see a "This is harmless and okay." I take it to mean something quite different and am thus asking what it is that distinguishes the two "types" of fiction.

LordRedhand wrote:

The two fictional events I was referring to were the same event and the opinions given by the same person yet two different results occurred. You should also read up thought experiments as when I see a "This is harmless and okay." I take it to mean something quite different and am thus asking what it is that distinguishes the two "types" of fiction.

Yes. Because any one person has some things they approve of and some things they don't, even in a fictional environment. Does this come as a surprise to you?

I don't approve of the fictional portrayals of child rape, but I do approve of the fictional portrayal of murder. However, in saying that the former should be banned, I am encouraging a train of thought that might lead to the latter being banned because someone else does not approve of it. Do you see what we have here? This is why we are all rushing to defend the indefensible.

LordRedhand wrote:

Sigh, go back, read carefully.

And I sigh back at you, sir. If you understood your own argument, you'd see that I was indeed addressing it.

Same Event, Same person, different result. Not two different events, the same one. Not two people disagreeing with each other, but one person disagreeing with himself.

The assumption here is that you find the event normal/okay so a depiction of say a murderer should also be met with the same response, regardless of real or fictional, if everything is consistent. Thus the portrayal of the act may not be the isue but the response around that depiction. As if you were to say for example "Murder is okay." in response to a fictional murder instance, it becomes harder to say "Murder is wrong." as we have an instance of "you" saying the opposite, as it can't be both ways, it's one or the other in this case. (Not assuming that you approve of murder, but laying out/clarifying what I mean.) Thus when someone glorifies such an event it becomes more concerning, i.e. a person of interest.

So normally in fiction the portrayal of taking the life of another (i.e. murder) is not something that is celebrated and if the main character is such a murderer it normally falls into horror (Jason Vories for example.) and normally are also depicted negatively.
I fear such distinctions maybe "lacking" in say other fictions.

Edit: Also Slippery Slope is an invalid argument form http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/slippery-slope/

As to why I'm not in there I'm saying that certain events A are wrong to begin with if viewed as "normal" because your lessening your own potential and humanity and the universality when applying morality (That it has to apply in all instances, there can be no exceptions.) Your argument is however well if they ban this than they'll that, and then this and so on.

All right, so suppose there's a fictional depiction of a murder, and it's cast in a terrible light. Say I find this OK.

Now there's a fictional depiction of another murder, but this time it's presented in such a way that it's glorified. Say I find this not OK.

What we have established is that I have a moral limit as to when I approve of fictional murder. Now please explain to me what this has to do with banning the material.

Edit: Please refrain from making ninja edits during a debate. It doesn't give me a chance to counter any new points in your argument.

The "slippery slope" has nothing to do with this. I'm saying that it's wrong to ban reading/writing/thinking about any particular subject, whether or not I personally approve of them.

Hannish Lightning wrote:

Who else, but a pedo would be into loli porn?

So we can send people to jail for midget porn too right, drawings of midget porn too? Oops, they look like 10 year olds, better send those bad pedo's to jail. OH thats right, we forgot to ask the midgets age before we started our hate run.

Everyone is up in arms about this thing because it's NOT REAL CHILD PORN. God, it's probably more than likely school girls, and the japanese draw 16-18 year old girls like there 12 (aka loli fetish), even though they're NOT 12 YEARS OLD.

Bottom line people, do whatever you want in your house. Watch, draw, dream whatever you want, I dont' give a crud, and nobody else will either. Just keep it to yourself.

Playing Street Fighter isn't going to make me Shoryuken the next guy in line at Subway. Watching a documentary on Hilter isn't going to make me revive the Nazi's and try to take over the world. The jury knows this, this guy's an idiot for giving in the guilty flag.

KanjiiZ wrote:

Sorry that I don't like to defend creepy old guys who like drawn porn. That's just me though, egoist you can defend him all you want. Be his lawyer or fund his bail if you're so defensive about him.

How can you tell that I'm not his lawyer already? If "good at lying" means "good lawyer", then I, my friend, am a top-rate lawyer.

Quote:

So we can send people to jail for midget porn too right, drawings of midget porn too? Oops, they look like 10 year olds, better send those bad pedo's to jail. OH thats right, we forgot to ask the midgets age before we started our hate run.

A midget look nothings like a kid, the same only similarity is their height. Keep rationalizing your pedo material, but know this, no matter what you do society will never accept it's okay to look at your kiddie porn, fake or not.

Hannish Lightning wrote:

Quote:

So we can send people to jail for midget porn too right, drawings of midget porn too? Oops, they look like 10 year olds, better send those bad pedo's to jail. OH thats right, we forgot to ask the midgets age before we started our hate run.

A midget look nothings like a kid, the same only similarity is their height. Keep rationalizing your pedo material, but know this, no matter what you do society will never accept it's okay to look at your kiddie porn, fake or not.

Do you know how to read? it seems all you can do is state the same ignorant opinion over and over again, this is not about my opinion versus yours, this is about my argument versus yours. so far the only person to even have an argument is lordredhand, all you and KanjiiZ have been doing is posting 1-2 line troll posts. which add nothing to the conversation except making more rational people get into pointless and petty arguments with you, to which you nitpick a small portion of the argument and leave the rest alone. You are either an ignoramus or a troll, in either case i request a ban.

I really don't see the difference it makes between looking at fictional child porn or real child porn.

The only slight difference I see is that in the case of real children, it might be possible to get arrested if you know the children are being raped regularly and you keep quiet about it. But in the case of fictional characters, no one is physically hurt in the process (bar writers cramp for the artist.)

Unless the person looking at the content was either directly involved with making it or, if the content was recent, fails to report it to authorities, then I don't see why they should be charged with a crime.

If you want my opinion, that such content is disgusting in a disturbing sort of way. However, just because I might think it's disgusting and wrong, does not change the fact that by simply looking at the content you aren't hurting anyone. Because I might not like it, doesn't mean that someone else out there doesn't. And because I don't like it, that it gives me the right to dictate to other people what is obscene and what isn't. Do I consider it obscene? Sure, maybe. But that's not grounds enough to arrest someone for possessing such content.

It's one thing to physically rape a child. It's another thing ENTIRELY to simply view an image of it. And even more over, viewing drawn fictional characters?

The bottom line is this:
Regardless of what you/we, the innocent observers of the case might think about the content he had in his possession; whether you thought it was obscene or not; you simply do not have the right and/or justification to force your ideals down someone else's throat. If you don't like it, that's fine. Just stay away from it. But that doesn't mean you are right or you are the law. Get over his life and live your own.

animehermit wrote:

Hannish Lightning wrote:

Quote:

So we can send people to jail for midget porn too right, drawings of midget porn too? Oops, they look like 10 year olds, better send those bad pedo's to jail. OH thats right, we forgot to ask the midgets age before we started our hate run.

A midget look nothings like a kid, the same only similarity is their height. Keep rationalizing your pedo material, but know this, no matter what you do society will never accept it's okay to look at your kiddie porn, fake or not.

Do you know how to read? it seems all you can do is state the same ignorant opinion over and over again, this is not about my opinion versus yours, this is about my argument versus yours. so far the only person to even have an argument is lordredhand, all you and KanjiiZ have been doing is posting 1-2 line troll posts. which add nothing to the conversation except making more rational people get into pointless and petty arguments with you, to which you nitpick a small portion of the argument and leave the rest alone. You are either an ignoramus or a troll, in either case i request a ban.

What's trolling and ignorant is thinking that it's okay for pedophiles to perpetuate their fantasies/desires by letting them look at loli porn . Society has nothing to lose if we banned all forms of CP and we have nothing to gain if we allow it to continue. And what's ridiculous is thinking I should be banned because I am so adamantly opposed to letting some smuck be allowed to fap to loli smut. If you look at real CP you should go to jail, but if you like to look at fake CP then you need psychological help because their has to be something wrong with you if you enjoy looking at the form of a naked child doing sexual acts.

Hannish Lightning wrote:

What's trolling and ignorant is thinking that it's okay for pedophiles to perpetuate their fantasies/desires by letting them look at loli porn.

No one should give a damn about what anyone fantasizes about. It's nothing but thoughts. How can anyone even begin to think about policing thoughts? Are thoughts that scary to you?

Hannish Lightning wrote:

Society has nothing to lose if we banned all forms of CP and we have nothing to gain if we allow it to continue.

Drawings are not child porn.

Hannish Lightning wrote:

And what's ridiculous is thinking I should be banned because I am so adamantly opposed to letting some smuck be allowed to fap to loli smut.

Why do you care so much about someone masturbating somewhere? Do you want to raid their homes screaming "Keep your hands off your penis! Stop thinking what you are thinking!"? WTF.

Hannish Lightning wrote:

If you look at real CP you should go to jail, but if you like to look at fake CP then you need psychological help because their has to be something wrong with you if you enjoy looking at the form of a naked child doing sexual acts.

Please stop asking for psychological help for someone just because that someone thought of something. It's absurd.

Hannish Lightning wrote:

animehermit wrote:

Hannish Lightning wrote:

Quote:

So we can send people to jail for midget porn too right, drawings of midget porn too? Oops, they look like 10 year olds, better send those bad pedo's to jail. OH thats right, we forgot to ask the midgets age before we started our hate run.

A midget look nothings like a kid, the same only similarity is their height. Keep rationalizing your pedo material, but know this, no matter what you do society will never accept it's okay to look at your kiddie porn, fake or not.

Do you know how to read? it seems all you can do is state the same ignorant opinion over and over again, this is not about my opinion versus yours, this is about my argument versus yours. so far the only person to even have an argument is lordredhand, all you and KanjiiZ have been doing is posting 1-2 line troll posts. which add nothing to the conversation except making more rational people get into pointless and petty arguments with you, to which you nitpick a small portion of the argument and leave the rest alone. You are either an ignoramus or a troll, in either case i request a ban.

What's trolling and ignorant is thinking that it's okay for pedophiles to perpetuate their fantasies/desires by letting them look at loli porn . Society has nothing to lose if we banned all forms of CP and we have nothing to gain if we allow it to continue. And what's ridiculous is thinking I should be banned because I am so adamantly opposed to letting some smuck be allowed to fap to loli smut. If you look at real CP you should go to jail, but if you like to look at fake CP then you need psychological help because their has to be something wrong with you if you enjoy looking at the form of a naked child doing sexual acts.

If you're really the expert you claim to be, you should be citing some sources and making logical arguments, not posting the same opinion over and over again. I second a ban; better yet a lock. We're gone in circles over this topic so many times it's not even funny.

LordRedhand wrote:

The assumption here is that you find the event normal/okay so a depiction of say a murderer should also be met with the same response, regardless of real or fictional, if everything is consistent.

You can't dismiss the difference between real and fake simply with a "regardless"; they are two different things. The difference is crucial.

LordRedhand wrote:

Thus the portrayal of the act may not be the isue but the response around that depiction. As if you were to say for example "Murder is okay." in response to a fictional murder instance, it becomes harder to say "Murder is wrong." as we have an instance of "you" saying the opposite, as it can't be both ways, it's one or the other in this case.

When someone says "Murder is okay" when describing what kind of fiction he likes, you can't possibly take that as his thoughts on real events. Again, fiction and reality are different things. A fictional murder is completely different to a real one.

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