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Taeradun wrote:

Oh, now we need facts?
Well then, here you go from earlier in the thread:

Kinoko Nasu: "This might be a little extreme, but in terms of story and picture, please think of [Fate/Stay Night] as a different thing from Zero. Stay Night’s goals and Zero’s goals are different things. If we were to impertinently connect the two, the story and mood would be ruined. Stay Night and Zero were written by different authors and have different stories, so they must both be respected in such a way."

http://i.imgur.com/GdnQYaN.png

Please explain those two.

Adaptation order being screwed up doesn't mean anyone should automatically adhere with that order when option to watch it in order authors themselves said that it should be seen is avaiable.

All that's proven there are the authors' intentions and statements. Just because the authors may intend for Fate/stay night stuff to be seen or watched or read before Fate/Zero doesn't mean it's actually better to do so (if there's even such a measure of "better").

Look, this is very simple. It's well known that folks argue a lot about watching order for the Fate franchise. No matter how strong your feelings are on the subject, coming here to argue about it--about two lines in a multi-paragraph review--is just trying to pick a fight. It's a miniscule detail of the review. Nobody wants to deal with people who comb reviews looking for fodder for an argument.

If folks actually want to reach people, through a discussion of watching order or whatever, try having a conversation. Try actually opening a dialogue or discourse. Ask questions and try to come to an understanding. Folks who come in here with their Authoritative "Fact" Cannons already blasting don't do anyone any favors--not themselves, not anyone else.

Nocorras wrote:

I have no problem where someone starts if they have the pros and cons of a watch order explained and not some off hand mis-leading explanation thrown out.

And it has been explained to you, why it's not misleading per se, which is the part where you don't listen. I'll make a guess that for the majority the introduction to Nasuverse was either the DEEN anime or F/Z. Nobody has died as far as I know and it seems the people who feel the worst are those who are so worried that some random human being's Fate/experience has been irrevocably damaged.

jl07045 wrote:

Nocorras wrote:

I have no problem where someone starts if they have the pros and cons of a watch order explained and not some off hand mis-leading explanation thrown out.

And it has been explained to you, why it's not misleading per se, which is the part where you don't listen. I'll make a guess that for the majority the introduction to Nasuverse was either the DEEN anime or F/Z. Nobody has died as far as I know and it seems the people who feel the worst are those who are so worried that some random human being's Fate/experience has been irrevocably damaged.

Except that part of the review is making a point to tell something to someone who hasn't watched anything Fate. It is misleading calling it a sequel, if it doesn't click at this point I'm not going to bother responding.

I'll be interested in what the watching order is going to be in these reviews when Heaven's Feel comes out.

Nocorras wrote:

The only two ways it can add context is through Shirou (which it doesn't do) and through Saber(which it doesn't do). Just watching Zero does not clue you in on a certain development of Saber in UBW, Fate does that. Zero does not make you understand Shirou and Saber in HF. Fate and UBW do that.

You seem to be absolutely insistent that any interpretation which doesn't stick hard to the original VN is a wrong one. (Your sensitivity over the use of the word "subjective" in reference to the ordering only supports that.) That's possibly the biggest point where I (and I'm sure others) are having a beef with you and others with your position, and why I generally hate it when people insist on putting heavy weight on source material context.

Strictly from a non-VN viewpoint, I absolutely felt that F/Z added context for Shirou; in fact, I thought that was pretty obvious. When I first watched F/SN, I despised Shirou for his moralizing and thoughtless heroism. When I rewatched it after seeing F/Z, though, his reasons for being that way made much more sense: Shiro represents the idealism that Emiya want to pursue but never could because of the weight of the pragmatism necessary to pursue his goals. That turns the interpretation of Emiya's smile to Shirou when he declared that he would take up Emiya's dream of being a champion of justice from an indulgent one to a pained one. F/Z also made understanding why Emiya refused to properly teach Shirou magic much clearer.

Concerning Saber, _Archer_ more or less had it down. I got a far stronger understanding of Saber's motives in FSN from seeing F/Z first. FSN was very much about her trying to redeem herself for what she was forced to do at the end of F/Z and for her failures as a king as displayed to her in F/Z. This is brought up a little in DEEN's FSN but comes through much more impactfully with F/Z in the bag first. The whole business with spoiler[Gilgamesh trying to claim Saber as his wife] in FSN also made vastly more sense with F/Z first.

Now, if you want to insist that these effects are only present because DEEN made FSN poorly, I'll give you that that's possible. However, that's a VN-centered view, not an anime-centered one.

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Anyway I'm arguing with people who haven't read the VN so it's a fruitless endeavor anyway since we don't have the same experiences.

You are correct, because you are exclusively looking at it from the VN POV and we're not. Apparently the two don't mesh.

Key wrote:

Strictly from a non-VN viewpoint, I absolutely felt that F/Z added context for Shirou; in fact, I thought that was pretty obvious. When I first watched F/SN, I despised Shirou for his moralizing and thoughtless heroism. When I rewatched it after seeing F/Z, though, his reasons for being that way made much more sense: Shiro represents the idealism that Emiya want to pursue but never could because of the weight of the pragmatism necessary to pursue his goals. That turns the interpretation of Emiya's smile to Shirou when he declared that he would take up Emiya's dream of being a champion of justice from an indulgent one to a pained one. F/Z also made understanding why Emiya refused to properly teach Shirou magic much clearer.

All of which which is explained in Fate and UBW (UBW really goes into this) as far as where Shirou's ideals come from. There is a reason it comes out when it does in the VN.

Rin explains perfectly fine the reasons for Kerry to not want to subject magic onto Shirou in episodes 5 and 11.

"A mage families job is to take a human and turn it into something else over long years of rigorous training" is very telling.

Rin's struggle between two identities is also a sad reality of the situation.

I think that's probably the crux of the problem, deen stay night and fate zero don't really mesh well with the visual novel at all. Or at least, the subjective conclusions we draw after viewing them are different. For instance, you said that fsn was about Saber trying to redeem herself for what she was forced to do at the end of F/Z. But having read the VN first, I thought the point of saber's part of the story was to learn that mistakes are part of being a human being, and she had nothing she needed to redeem. (At least in part). I'm not going to say you're wrong in your interpretation or that you HAVE to see it this way, I think it's just a case of apple and oranges......It's unfortunate that fans of fsn seem to be having two different conversations on what they are watching, depending on what they saw first, and I think what we(VN readers) are arguing is that this should be reflected in the review, instead of saying watching it this way first is fine......

I remember DEEN doing Saber's stuff pretty decent. I don't think it was 'brought up a little' it was a major part and was about accepting your past and moving forward. It was certainly interesting how she got to the point of moving on and it wasn't hinged on any Zero knowledge.

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Sorry, but this is a faulty comparison. VNDB is a sight that is exclusively devoted to VN players, while ANN is a general site which covers everything. Percentage-wise, VNDB probably also has a far greater presence amongst English language VN aficionados than what ANN does amongst the immensely more expansive pool of anime and manga fans; I've known innumerable kids who are familiar with the FMA or Naruto manga but aren't even cognizant of ANN, for instance. Given that FSN is also practically the Evangelion of VN titles, I would have been shocked if its rating numbers for the FSN VN weren't many times higher there.

Right, obviously there is a huge gap between the Mainstream titles and the Otaku shows, I will concede that. Let me maybe use the example of Moe anime fans, which was originally an overlooked niche in the anime fanbase. I remember when it then became time for ANN to review Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha back in 2009, and the negative review sent hordes of fans bickering in the comments, with all the new moe anime fans complaining about the "slanderous" review and the Old Guard calling it a "pedo show" Obviously this new subset of "Moe anime" fans was larger than anticipated, and unfortunately vocal. I think Shuffle went through the same thing. So it was for what, Strike Witches[?], where a search went out at ANN to find a Moe Anime fan to review it. I am not particular to the details of what went on behind the scenes, I can only imagine the staff being completely flabbergasted at seeing these anime like Nanoha or Shuffle become licensed, and then having to decide someone, anyone, to suffer through watching the cutsy-poo stuff and review it.

But then now Moe oriented anime is a part of anime that is here to stay, so, well, someone has to review it Smile

acetatsujin wrote:

Another terrible review by someone who doesn't know or understand the Fate universe. Such a shame ANN is bringing to itself ...

cause unfortunately the FSN VN are not available in the US. not surprising since that VN as well as FSN's sequel hollow ataraxia are ero.

and considering that type moon haven't decided on which of the three routes is the real sequel to fate zero have let to even more confusion to people new to the series.

which of course lead to studio deen to have their version of FSN to have some of the storylines with all three routes but have it ended with the fate route. the results were mixed, while newbies to the fate universe let alone type moon like myself liked that series , hardcore type moon junkies were screaming bloody murder.

also the popularity of the routes vary. for fans of shiro , illya & saber is the fate route.for fans of archer and rin ,the UBW route and for rider and sakura the heaven's feel route.

though its as i said, until they decide on which route is directly linked to fate zero, debates like this as well as confusion towards the storyline of the fate universe will continue.

Last edited by Key on Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total

iathomps wrote:

Right, obviously there is a huge gap between the Mainstream titles and the Otaku shows, I will concede that.

Um, no, that wasn't the point at all.

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I am not particular to the details of what went on behind the scenes, I can only imagine the staff being completely flabbergasted at seeing these anime like Nanoha or Shuffle become licensed, and then having to decide someone, anyone, to suffer through watching the cutsy-poo stuff and review it.

While you are correct about the negative reaction to the Nanoha review and that an outside person was pulled in for the one-shot original review of SW, you are so ridiculously wrong about this that I (almost) laughed. (And in case you aren't clear about this point, I am one of the current staff reviewers and was at that time, too, so I know exactly what conversations did or did not go on "behind the scenes.")

But really, that situation and this one aren't analogous at all, either. The complaints about not giving moe a fair shake (which were predicated primarily on a couple of very negative reviews even though we had several others of heavily moe titles that were not) covered numerous titles across the spectrum of anime. This issue is almost entirely about Fate and there's only a small handful of people actually making that complaint.

Its been a long time since the last Fate flame war, guess everyone has to get it out of their system, since they are so pent up.

I watched Fate/Stay Night first, since it came out first. I watched Fate Zero when it came out next. I am still alive, so don't listen to the uber Fate fans. Watch whichever version you can or want, you are not going to be turned into stone, because the visual novel gods are angry.

TarsTarkas wrote:

Its been a long time since the last Fate flame war, guess everyone has to get it out of their system, since they are so pent up.

It really seems like Fate has the most argumentative fanbase out there. This review was posted less than 24 hours ago and there's already over 100 posts. The talkback thread for the episode reviews was even worse than this.

Nasuverse has a large fanbase and a source material that creates very divisive opinions for a multitude of reasons. It has a history of dumb jokes, memefied opinions, lacking adaptations and crappy translations. So, yes, there will inevitably be people who have a chip on the shoulder for something. Leveling those criticisms at a fanbase instead of those particular individuals is really not helping.

xFlintx wrote:

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your best bet is to watch Fate/Zero first

not this shit again

Thats like saying watching Star Wars episode 1 is a good place to start watching Star Wars. Do you really think knowing spoiler[Darth Vader is Luke's father is gonna make you enjoy it more?]

F/SN spoils literally only one thing in F/Z and that's the winner which is pretty obvious if you watched the first episode. F/Z spoils numerous twists within F/SN in the first episode alone, especially in Heaven's feel. F/SN isn't ment to build on what you know from F/Z, F/Z is ment to build on what you know in F/SN. That's exactly why it's called a prequel.

^ There.

Read the visual novel and get all the endings plus the final episode. Seriously man, who the hell hires these reviewers?

Just stop ...

F/SN is meant to be read and watched first.
F/Z is meant to be watched after F/SN.
F/SN Heaven's Feel is meant after UBW because UBW is very critical to Heaven's Feel. F/SN's Fate arc barely plays any major significant role in UBW and Heaven's Feel besides building on characters.

Burn that in your memory. Wow I so don't want to read anymore reviews from this site ... seriously terrible.

It's too crazy a time of day for me to really discuss the review, but I can easily say that it wasn't worth all these incendiary reactions. Like jl077045 indicated early on, it is very feasible to approach watching the new Fate/stay night anime in a few different ways. If you have enough time and maybe-money on your hands, and a willingness to take a multi-media approach to consuming the franchise by their order of writing, then yeah, go the way of reading Fate/stay night first, and then Zero, and then the new anime. If you want to stick to just the anime, then it should work to see Fate/Zero first, followed by Unlimited Blade Works and the eventual Heaven's Feel adaptation! Or heck, feel free to jump right into Unlimited Blade Works already as your first real intro to the Nasuverse.

As much as I like the first method of approaching the series in the chronologically written order-- that's the one I took after all, and it really felt that I got the most enjoyment out of Fate/Zero that way-- it's senseless to get bent out of shape over it.

jl07045 wrote:

Muphrid wrote:

I don't know if I can agree with the idea that this is a "self-indulgent action spectacle". That's certainly a strength of the show, but I don't know if that's what the show wants to be. If it did, why build in all the slow days of Shirou and Rin feeling out the situation, learning about themselves and each other?

Perhaps it can be said that the character work doesn't overshadow the action when action is present. That's good for keeping things engaging on several levels--at least folks who don't really feel tied into the character work have something to enjoy otherwise.

Shirou's ideals--how they are flawed, how he learns to tweak them and modify them and live with them--are central to the overall story of Fate/stay night. I wouldn't characterize the focus on them as philosophical in nature, but more along the lines of a coming-of-age story, of a child learning to be an adult, tempering naivete with wisdom and experience. To that end, the most important people around around Shirou are reflections on his ideals. Rin is a good person, but her upbringing has been entirely pragmatic and without any attachment to ideals. Archer cynically takes Shirou's ideals to their logical extreme.

I think ufotable have done a good job at capturing Shirou's contradiction: he starts off frustrated, not just because he lacks the power to see his ideals come to fruition but because he knows they are, in some sense, impossible. And yet, he clings to them anyway, not knowing what else to turn to. That sense of Shirou's character is very hard to get right; pulling it off helped keep people engaged in Shirou's struggle, I think.

If anything, I think it's the overemphasis on Shirou's personal struggle that bogs down the story, as many of the developments in the middle part of the season don't fit well with the overarching plot but help further Shirou's development (however gracefully or clumsily these efforts may have been). The plot basically doesn't go anywhere between the battle with Berserker and Caster showing up, but we get several episodes that probe at Shirou's mindset in the meantime.

In all, I don't think popcorn action is what UBW wants to be, though it can definitely do those moments well--almost impeccably, save for some poor shots in the Archer/Caster/Shirou fight midway through. I don't think UBW wants to be philosophical either--it explores some questions of morality, sure, but it spends much more time just telling Shirou that's he's naive, and with Shirou struggling against the crushing knowledge of that.

I present to you once more pretty much the only post in this thread that cares about actually discussing the show and the review and isn't bogged down by nonsense, vitriol and shallow disagreements.

A few pages later, and I'm not sure much more has changed! Seriously though, Muphrid raised great enough points that it's a real shame stuff like what he said is getting overlooked in lieu of…. whatever this is supposed to be now.

@acetatsujin
Dude, I think your side of the argument has had more than enough advocacy here. Getting heated up (and then re-heated up) over this isn't really helping anything at all.

Also, I don't think any/many are arguing at all that Heaven's Feel is something that works standalone or without the foreknowledge of what went on in Fate/UBW anyway.

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