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NEWS: Gonzo Works to be Streamed Simultaneously with Airing


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Master Lee



Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 47
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:09 am Reply with quote
DonQuigleone wrote:
If you're concerned about what happens if the anime gets deleted you're obviously not familiar with Steam and other online distributors of games, on those you have an account and you can just redownload anything that gets deleted, I expect that in any future endeavour like this something similiar will be used


Aye, I'm aware of the way Steam handles their downloadable content. It makes the consumer feel a bit safer knowing they're covered in the event of a disaster. (Or, at least it makes me feel safer.)

This is not the only way it's handled though. There are many companies that restrict you in some way. Such as only a one-time download, a 3 time download limit before a re-buy, etc. I'm aware that these are all ways to prevent piracy, but they make a trustworthy consumer like me irrate.

I even know of a few companies that make you re-buy the product all over again if the download is bad, incomplete, corrupted, etc. Some of them do offer you the option of "download insurance" to cover this... for an extra fee of course.

I'm not against GONZO's distribution plans. (Except maybe the involvement of Crunchyroll.) I'm just one of those weird people who consider things like how downloads function an issue when determining if I give them my hard earned cash. Smile

Since the details of the downloads weren't mentioned, it got me curious. I'm sure this kind of information will be revealed to everyone once the project is further underway.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:40 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I think it's important to point out that this isn't some kind of death knell for the R1 industry or anything - people still buy DVDs, people still want dubs, people still want to watch anime in English on TV.

It's not like the DVD market is just going to completely disappear because you can watch Gonzo shows on Youtube. There's a reliable audience that wants DVD product, wants dub product, and doesn't like watching streaming video. It's not a HUGE market, and it's obviously not big enough to sustain the anime industry as it existed for a few years there, but it is there and it's not going to suddenly go away.


Well, if it remains just a few Gonzo shows then yeah. But if this should become the precedent that most other companies follow it certainly could. (I'm not saying it will but the possibility of it happening is what everybody is thinking about right now I think.)

Isn't the whole issue that many people are concerned about (including you yourself as I understood it) that currently there is not a reliable audience for DVDs? I agree that R1 companies aren't going to just instantly disappear. There will certainly still be a market for anime on TV and some people are still going to buy DVDs. But unless you believe that the R1 industry is not in any kind of serious trouble then how can you not see this as a potentially majorly bad sign for them? If this is the Japanese industries solution though it may help them (assuming they have some sort of way to profit from this) they are actually encouraging people to not buy R1 DVDs if anything. At best it will do nothing to help the R1 industry.

-Edited to clarify my point.


Last edited by ikillchicken on Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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Labbes



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 890
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:42 am Reply with quote
I'm so glad that someone is finally doing this. Even with a show I wanted to watch (Hint: It is not Blassreiter), that's so great!
Doesn't leave me a lot to say, it's the right step, and I hope that other companies will follow.

Now if only someone did that for Code Geass R2, Fansubbers would be so pissed Very Happy

EDIT: I'm not so much concerned about video quality. I watched several very good shows (NGE, Noir, Escaflowne, FLCL, Cowboy Bebop and Shonen stuff like Bleach) in real crappy quality (Meaning: youtube or even worse, FLCL was like 50mb per episode^^) and it didn't hurt them at all.


Last edited by Labbes on Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:43 am Reply with quote
This really amazes me. You get something like this and it's still not good enough. Now the overly vocal "my way and no one elses way" people like certain chicken murderers still have to spout out demanding that things must be a certain way and still manage to find a way to make something like this some anti-industry rant. Give it a rest for gods sakes.

If you think this is the end of the R1 industry then you know far less about markets and industry then your unrealistic ramblings have presented in the past. First off this stream doesn't offer a dub. All those thousands or more dollars that the studios sees coming in that they've grown so reliant on are very often supplied by fans who watch dubs, whether purists and sub advocates care to recognize that or not. Just streaming some subtitled episodes isn't going to draw those viewers in.

Secondly, they're still looking to make money here. Most streaming provides this through advertisements. Even paid services still provide advertising since often times just the small fee that is charged itself is not enough. The problem with international streaming is that your paying for a lot of bandwidth to feed the worlds demand for the product, but the advertising is generally localized in most cases to your region. This doesn't provide much incentive for many advertisers, and the ones that will bite aren't going to offer as much money per viewer when they can safely assume many of those viewers aren't even going to be in their market.

R1 companies, and other global licensors, bypass all this by producing a dub and thus attracting a larger audience. They also take a large load off the studio by handling the streaming for their region. By localizing the streaming they also are able to ensure that the products that may be advertised to bring in revenue will be relevant to the viewer. They also play the role of a market consultant as a company that is familiar with the area in which the product is being marketed. They also are able to provide more capable translators who speak the native language that the series is being translated too, providing more reliable subtitles and less likelihood of the appearance of engrish; which we all know shows up plenty in anime on drawn portions of a scene.

This doesn't even touch on the fact that many people are still going to want to buy a physical product, not just a downloaded stream. Whether you watch or buy DVDs or not is irrelevant, the market still exists, even if it is not as strong as it used to be. The internet and streaming doesn't remove the need for a licensor and regional company, it just modifies their role somewhat. If you honestly believe what you state, then you don't understand global economics at all. Some people need to back off from arguing using a very "me"centric viewpoint as the basis for that argument. You may think this or want that, but you don't represent an entire market. Markets are far more diverse and fluid than that and to even argue using anything else as a basis only demonstrates a closeminded viewpoint that makes it apparent the individual isn't looking to discuss, but to demand.

All in all people are jumping the gun here. If this doesn't prove profitable for them, then it's nothing more than a failed experiment. In the end this has virtually no effect on me as I find nothing in Gonzo's catalog to really be worth my time, streamed or otherwise. So far this seems to me to only be a response to piracy by providing an inferior product. No physical copy, no dubs, no features, and the subtitle quality itself remains to be seen.
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muppsatan



Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:52 am Reply with quote
Well i'm just happy we get a simultaneous release even if the subs are pretty bad i won't mind since its atleast a step in the right direction. I will still watch it and heck most likely even pay for the download just to support it. And enough with the annoying business part of it watch the anime if u like it thats all we need to do as fans Smile
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:47 am Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
This really amazes me. You get something like this and it's still not good enough. Now the overly vocal "my way and no one elses way" people like certain chicken murderers still have to spout out demanding that things must be a certain way and still manage to find a way to make something like this some anti-industry rant. Give it a rest for gods sakes.


Okay, I'm not exactly sure if this rant was primarily directed at me specifically or more at multiple people but since it was only me you mentioned by by name (sort of) I will assume the prior.

You're making some awfully big assumptions about me here.

Quote:
If you think this is the end of the R1 industry then you know far less about markets and industry then your unrealistic ramblings have presented in the past.


I'm sorry if my failure to be optimistic has somehow offended you but regardless there is no need to be so rude. I imagine you are perfectly capable of making your argument without being insulting. It's just uncalled for.

Moving on, I did not say this will be the end of the R1 industry. However, I believe the R1 industry is already in trouble. Don't we agree on that?

Quote:
First off this stream doesn't offer a dub. All those thousands or more dollars that the studios sees coming in that they've grown so reliant on are very often supplied by fans who watch dubs, whether purists and sub advocates care to recognize that or not. Just streaming some subtitled episodes isn't going to draw those viewers in.


I do hope that wasn't directed at me. I am pretty far from either of those. I strongly prefer dubs.

I recognize your points about how the R1 industry is still necessary. However, I am looking at the direct effect of this move. If they add a free and legal means to watch subtitled anime what effect will that have on the R1 profits? It certainly won't add any sort of revenue. In fact it will likely cost them a few sales. There are plenty of people who don't want DVDs but buy them because they are the only legal means. People in this category who prefer subs will most likely go for this and stop buying DVDs. As will people who do not feel strongly may certainly choose to use this free service to avoid buying DVDs they don't want. Even people who prefer dubs may choose this over paying for DVDs they don't really want. At best this will have no effect on R1 profits. At worst it will cost them sales.

Again, It isn't even that I feel lost sales from this would be what would kill the R1 industry. (Although it might put even more stress on an already shaky industry) I think the lack of demand for DVDs has already put the R1 industry in trouble. I agree there will always be enough demand to maintain at least some sort of R1 industry. However, if something is not done we could be in for some severe and messy cutbacks to reach that point.

My issue is that this is a lack of a solution. People are hailing this as the savior of anime but in the R1 industries case at least, I just don't see how it is.

Quote:
Secondly, they're still looking to make money here.


I would think so. However, as they have yet to really confirm how they plan to do this it is a little concerning. They may also have some sort of plan to help maintain the R1 industry in this too. Again though, I'll remain skeptical until I actually hear something.

Quote:
Some people need to back off from arguing using a very "me"centric viewpoint as the basis for that argument. You may think this or want that, but you don't represent an entire market.
Markets are far more diverse and fluid than that and to even argue using anything else as a basis only demonstrates a closeminded viewpoint that makes it apparent the individual isn't looking to discuss, but to demand.


How is it that actually worrying about whether this will help the industry instead of just going: whoopee! Free and legal anime! is "me"centric? It's obviously not wrong to "want" the R1 industry to survive. I'm not sure what it is you think I'm "demanding" here but I think you've misinterpreted my comments.
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Shippoyasha



Joined: 28 Aug 2007
Posts: 459
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:59 am Reply with quote
For better or worse, we all could at least acknowledge that GDH/Gonzo is very ahead of the curve with this. Just about all serious fansubbers and fansub-supporters have called them out to do it and GDH outright DID it. They had balls for doing this. I almost don't care how they did it. It was outright courageous of them.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:57 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
However, I am looking at the direct effect of this move. If they add a free and legal means to watch subtitled anime what effect will that have on the R1 profits? It certainly won't add any sort of revenue. In fact it will likely cost them a few sales. There are plenty of people who don't want DVDs but buy them because they are the only legal means. People in this category who prefer subs will most likely go for this and stop buying DVDs. As will people who do not feel strongly may certainly choose to use this free service to avoid buying DVDs they don't want. Even people who prefer dubs may choose this over paying for DVDs they don't really want. At best this will have no effect on R1 profits. At worst it will cost them sales.

Sorry to get in the middle of this, but this comment goes to the heart of why I've always defended fansubs. Why do people who argue against them always make the assumption (or at least, argue the assumption) that a "free" viewing method automatically means lost sales? There is something to be said for improved exposure, people latch on to what is "popular" many times even if it is not "good".

But more to the point, the "home video" market (now utilizing DVDs, formerly using VHS, future looks to be BlueRay) is a market for people that want to OWN a copy of whatever media. And the FACT is that many people will not want to do this sight unseen. The central question (on the merits of fansubs) has always been:
If 100,000 will buy it sight unseen, how many will buy it if 1,000,000 watch it. Industry proponents have always argued that that 100,000 will drop based mainly on the fact that actual sales are usually much less than that and actual viewers are much more. The problem is, what's the ACTUAL "base" number. If the show is unseen by people, how many would buy it then? How many people bought "Devil Hunter Yohko" or "Battle Angel" back in the day? THAT is the consumer market without exposure. "But that was before anime was 'popular'" you say? Do we think anime will "magically" maintain popularity when there is no "free" way to watch the shows?

Which has more DVD sales? the most popular (US) broadcast TV show, or the most popular (US) cable TV show? How many broadcast shows hit "high" sales figures, vs. how many cable shows? There are some shows that will probably sell less copies due to free online streaming, there are others that I think will sell more, the real question is what is the NET result, more or less overall? But the absolute bottom line that everyone SHOULD agree on, is that the industry needed to do SOMETHING, maybe this works, maybe it doesn't, only time will tell.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:09 am Reply with quote
I don't foresee that this will increase or decrease sales (or at the very least overall profit for the japanese) much. I do think this could be bad for dubs and dubbing potentially, but that is all based on how big you think the "anti-fansub" crowd is that will latch onto this solely because it's legal. I really doubt those people are really that hate fansubs but want to watch online are all that large a group. There are many fansub watchers who would like legal alternatives, but most of the anti-fansub I've seen here don't really appear to be the ones advocating streaming services for themselves (they'll advocate it for others but they seem to exclude themselves as a potential user).

So in any case I don't think much will change, but these services may get a few extra sales from the fansub crowd who aren't doing anything at all right now.
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skyechan



Joined: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 150
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:16 am Reply with quote
Sweet. This is definitely a big step in the right direction. I cannot wait to see what the future holds. :3
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MokonaModoki



Joined: 30 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:32 am Reply with quote
It is conceivable that this could actually help the R1 DVD industry. By providing digital streaming rights to these websites, an element of exclusivity is removed from the value of the property by an official act. That act differentiates the situation from the uncontrolled one where a license is devalued by the criminal acts of officially uninvolved parties.

If a devalued license came with reduced licensing fees, then it could be easier for the DVD industry to recoup costs through sales rather than harder.

That may be wildly optimistic though. By hopping in bed with a pirate site GDH may believe that they are increasing the value of the license. It's not as if the prices of DVDs in Japan provide a shining beacon of hope that increased free exposure lowers the cost of collecting.
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:13 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
I do hope that wasn't directed at me. I am pretty far from either of those. I strongly prefer dubs.


It was not, I was merely covering my bases and making an effort to deflect the jabs that those people would undoubtedly and predictably fire off in response.

ikillchicken wrote:
I recognize your points about how the R1 industry is still necessary. However, I am looking at the direct effect of this move. If they add a free and legal means to watch subtitled anime what effect will that have on the R1 profits? It certainly won't add any sort of revenue. In fact it will likely cost them a few sales.


It's a gamble, but honestly, what can they really do right now that isn't? It's the crappy world of the marketplace. It would seem they're putting these out there as a means of exposure. Many of the people who simply download will use this source possibly as well, so there's no real losses in sales and it makes the industry feel more hospitable to those individuals. Many who still buy DVDs won't find these streams adequate enough to meet their needs and so will still purchase them in the end. It also provides greater exposure and may inspire people who wouldn't have bought the DVDs or wouldn't have even watched anime at all to come across the show and then pick it up.

I don't see this particular event to really effect the R1 industry all that much. This isn't a substitute for DVDs and more than likely the ones that are already supporting the industry will continue to do so in most cases. I'd say this puts more stress on the studios themselves by providing people with a concrete means of trying before they buy, ensuring that quality if going to be that much more important.

ikillchicken wrote:
My issue is that this is a lack of a solution. People are hailing this as the savior of anime but in the R1 industries case at least, I just don't see how it is.


I won't argue on this one, I am in complete agreement here.

ikillchicken wrote:
I would think so. However, as they have yet to really confirm how they plan to do this it is a little concerning. They may also have some sort of plan to help maintain the R1 industry in this too. Again though, I'll remain skeptical until I actually hear something.


You're right to do so, I'm still a skeptic myself. However, this is a product that costs them 5 to 6 figures to produce, they're going to have some means of earning. My guess is they may eventually license the R1 companies to stream the content and use advertising revenue, similar to how the networks like NBC and FOX are doing it with their online broadcasts.

ikillchicken wrote:
How is it that actually worrying about whether this will help the industry instead of just going: whoopee! Free and legal anime! is "me"centric? It's obviously not wrong to "want" the R1 industry to survive. I'm not sure what it is you think I'm "demanding" here but I think you've misinterpreted my comments.


That was a general comment towards attitudes in this thread. Yeah, I admit I started the thread off responding to you directly, but I kind of rambled on away from that and was really directing the bulk of it towards people and attitudes presented in general. I have a habit of doing that and ignoring the quote command. It's a bad habit, I know.
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ikari22



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:23 pm Reply with quote
If it's airing free in Japan, and since the goal of it all is to transmit here as if it were airing on a normal tv channel (which means it would be free also), do you think BOST will air it for free or will they put it out as VOD? Will it be legal for them to charge? Because it would be like someone charging you to watch OTA public/local channels.
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Keonyn
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:11 pm Reply with quote
Most anime in Japan isn't aired on local broadcast channels. They also get revenue from advertising, not to mention income from the channel itself. It costs a lot of money to make an anime, they're looking to earn that back somewhere along the line. Could be a flat rate fee service, or it could done through advertising like US networks do.
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Dargonxtc



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:37 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
They also get revenue from advertising, not to mention income from the channel itself.

Though apparently not as much, if any, as the general consensus seems to make it:

Tatsunori Konno, president and CEO of Bandai Visual USA, "Is Anime Dead?", PiQ, Issue 1 wrote:
The Japanese anime business model is fundamentally different (than movie and tv shows). Anime appears to the public via TV broadcasting at first, but the sponsors of these programs are often either the anime producers themselves, or investors in the production committee's member companies. In short, the production companies are essentially paying Japanese TV stations to broadcast their product. They consider the whole 30-minute block as an advertisement for anime DVDs or other merchandise that'll help them cover production costs later on.

So apparently even in Japan, most of the money is earned through R2 DVD sales, and not the almighty "free" television sponsorship endeavors. That fact alone certainly brings many of these arguments in a different light for me.

ikari22 wrote:
Will it be legal for them to charge? Because it would be like someone charging you to watch OTA public/local channels.

I think a better comparison, is a cable company charging you for cable. Confused
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