View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
|
Kin7cato
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 99
|
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:58 pm
|
|
|
I haven't seen Bleach so i can't comment on it. Sorry ,Lapsus I should have explained myself more clearly. I don't hate plot or dialogue. Plot and dialogue is what drives the entire story.
I just dislike the moments the creators place it in. For example when the two opponents meet its okay if they exchange dialouge. But when its a half an hour of straight talking it becomes pretty tedious.
There are better strategies to intergrate the background of the characters into a fight. Like before they approach each other in battle. They should give the backstory for the characters and their reasons for fighting before the fight begins.
But they should not do this in the middle of a fight.
I dislike the spacing of the events it feels unbalanced.
It would be much better to set up the story before the opponets approach each other. Then the opponents meet face to face exchange some dialouge. Intelligent dialogue. not like "I am gonna crush you!" or " I will kill you with my special attack!" Why would you tell this to your opponent?
Then the fight should commence. The fight should have a good amount of animation and action. Not all action but a balance like I am demonstrating. Not all loose and flowly like Lapsus describes. Halfway through the fight flashbacks and more dialouge should occur. But it should not be ten more minutes before the fighting starts again.
Who in the hell is going to sit there and listen to someone talk when they gain the oppurtunity to strike down their opponent.
Keep in mind there has to be a balance. The dialogue should not be too long. The fight continues on for about five minutes and then ends. That is what should be done.
Not dialogue that lasts for an entire episode at the beginning or middle of the fight. This is not divine dark hand and is quite possible to accomplish.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Cloe
Moderator
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 2728
Location: Los Angeles, CA
|
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:59 pm
|
|
|
Luminal wrote: | Actually I think it complements the anime and makes it even better. It is better to receive an explanation of how the main character defeated the bad guy than to just see it (body language is quite limited in anime) and wonder about it for ever.
Also remember that in most of stories the characters don't just want to defeat their foes in combat. Sometimes they want to prove they are better, prove they are doing the right thing, prove they are going to win, etc. Sometimes they don't want to fight and they hope they are able to make their opponent come to his senses. In order to accomplish these goals it is necessary to exchange a couple of sentences. |
You have a good point, and I somewhat agree with you, but I still think Kin7cato's complaint about long, expository speeches in the middle of fight scenes is valid. It's precisely the reason I tend to avoid action-oriented anime titles.
It IS good to know the underlying causes for a fight, just as it's good to know a character's motivation for any given action; the more we understand about the character and the way s/he thinks, after all, the more we connect with them. However, halting all the build-up and action of a sequence to bluntly deliver this information to an opponent completely kills pacing and is a sign of bad storytelling. If the writer/director of an anime has any sense of tact or dramatic insight at all, he should be able to convey a thought or emotion at a critical moment without being forced to rely on dialogue. And I'm sorry, but the standard this-is-why-we're-fighting-blah-blah-blah battle dialogue feels SO forced. Even if a story is told realistically up to this point, I will immediately disconnect from the entire experience when the fight speeches show up. This IS a problem that plagues a lot of action anime, and even though the intention is good, the execution is horrible.
Luminal wrote: | But this concept is not new, it is probably about 30 centuries old. In the Illiad, the warriors on each side knew not only the names of the warriors on the other side, but they also knew their entire family trees! And before, during and after the fights they would stop and give a lengthy speech about why they are better, why they are going to win this fight, even what they are going to do after they win the fight. |
Again, you make a very good point. But writing has changed since the Iliad; it's been re-invented time and time again, and such archaic storytelling isn't effective for motion picture. Remember again, that in Iliad, it is mostly dialogue that moves the story along. In motion picture, and especially animation, it is unwise (as I said earlier) to rely so heavily on words when it will unquestionably clash with visuals. In animation, visual language is more important than anything.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kruszer
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 7985
Location: Minnesota, USA
|
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:58 pm
|
|
|
Well, when you fight you're physically active and that makes you tired and being tired makes you slower. I think if it were me battling somebody for a half hour or so with martial-arts, I wouldn't be complaining at all. I'd be resting, enjoying the downtime while he or she spouts their personally philosophy, motives and life story.
|
Back to top |
|
|
bahamut623
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 1463
|
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:20 pm
|
|
|
[quote="Kin7cato"]
Rurouni Kenshin[TV] , DragonBall Z, Yu Yu Hakashu, Inuyasha,
Naruto, Street Fighter 2 V, 3x3 eyes, Sailor Moon, Gundam Wing
Trigun, Fatal Fury,etc there is a lot more.
What do you think about this?[/quote
Notice, most of the series you mentioned are based off shonen manga. It's not the fault of the animators, but rather it's just a trend that's common in alot of manga. during big fights, there will always be someone on the sidelines, or even the fighters themselves, explaining what their moves are or how they did them after having performed them. In some series that fights get a little complex(like in something like Naruto, they use who know's how many jutsus in one fight, and then explain what they just did too you, unless you're 100% proficient in the fighting styles of the Naruto universe, ), so a sort of "play by play" is needed. And yea, sometimes the fighters just wanna rest or be chivalrous.
|
Back to top |
|
|
milcor1
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 337
|
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:26 pm
|
|
|
Welcome to anime, where everything possible is done to squeeze out as many seconds as they can. 90% of licensed anime will have this. Yes, it is mind-numbingly rediculous but sadly it's not going away anytime soon.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kin7cato
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 99
|
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:44 pm
|
|
|
Bahamut the problem is that in Naruto they display the secrets at the wrong time during the fight. Making the fight more tedious and less entertaining. With 3 episodes showing a character siting around talking or dying. Naruto's timing and organization for dialogue is way over the top. And inappropriate. They really try to strecth it out.
|
Back to top |
|
|
bahamut623
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 1463
|
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:51 pm
|
|
|
Kin7cato wrote: | Bahamut the problem is that in Naruto they display the secrets at the wrong time during the fight. Making the fight more tedious and less entertaining. With 3 episodes showing a character siting around talking or dying. Naruto's timing and organization for dialogue is way over the top. And inappropriate. They really try to strecth it out. |
Yeah, I know what you mean, but that's just how alot of manga fights tend to work :\. I'm sure its present in non manga based anime too, but not too such an extreme extent, for example: Samurai Champloo, the fights usually are fast paced without being interrupted by talking, most of the time, anyway.
|
Back to top |
|
|
NyuuChan
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 575
|
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:44 pm
|
|
|
Also, Dialouge before a fight (assuming it's mid-end series and important) can add drama to the fight, and during to build up more suspense...
however that one naruto (someone mentioned it earlier)...jesus...i don't think the talking was LONG enough!
|
Back to top |
|
|
dark_hand
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Canada
|
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:32 am
|
|
|
kincato, when i read your description about how a fighting scene should be you really have put too much expectation on animes. animes is still inferior to hollywood in terms of planning and technical stuff which is logical considering the difference in the amount of money spent for production. so don't expect the fighting to be smooth and fast-paced except for some high-budget anime movies.
the fact that the characters talk a lot during fighting is just to drag the episodes so that they can get longer series with less effort and so gain more money. however, what if they are not talking nonsense but the dialogue is well thought out and helpful for the character development. i found this to be the case in most animes in which it builds my emotion and hype me up. however, if you are talking about dragon ball z, that series is already bad in the first place so unless somebody is very new to anime watching it, nobody else can enjoy it.
|
Back to top |
|
|
JoshuaStChristopher
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 351
|
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:06 am
|
|
|
I think it comes from lazy animators/low budgets. It seems that more often anime on larger budgets don't do that.
|
Back to top |
|
|
NyuuChan
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 575
|
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:27 pm
|
|
|
i remember someone earlier mentioning "non stop longer action scenes" in DBZ earlier on, and that's partially true, however some fights had large, LOOOOONG pauses in them. Like, when Goku was charging the spirit ball for three+ episodes just talking to freeza (i believe thats how it went, i haven't seen in a year or so)
yeah that was kinda boring.
|
Back to top |
|
|
fighterholic
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
|
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:10 pm
|
|
|
I can agree with Kin7cato, I watch all kinds of anime, and there is definetly a lot of dialogue in battle scenes. I think the worst is Yu-Gi-Oh! for talking, though.
|
Back to top |
|
|
camelot187757
Joined: 11 Dec 2005
Posts: 426
Location: The Nacirema Dream (17 and counting Asuka)
|
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:24 pm
|
|
|
Kin7cato wrote: | During a majority of Anime fight scenes I noticed a huge trend.
In the middle of a fight the main character and the opponent briefly battle for a short while.
Then all of a sudden the two characters come to a halt and start talking for literally two to ten minutes. Instead of a fight scene it becomes a dialouge battle.
This is just my opinion but I think its very stupid. If someone is really trying to kill or hurt you they are not going to sit and speak to you. They are going to use all of their power to murder you. As quickly and efficiently as possible.
Another trend I dislike in anime is during the middle of a fight it switches to another character or characters who are giving their opinions on the outcome of the fight. And their opinions on the fight takes about three or more minutes to explain who's going to win and why.
I really think this is dumb. I feel as though I have been cheated from a potentially good fight with sometimes a pointless dialouge. Its as if the artists said were tired can we rest a little? And the director says sure just make the character's mouths move so we don't have to animate the fight.
And we'll save money too.
This happens in a lot of animes. Even good ones. I'll name a few.
Rurouni Kenshin[TV] , DragonBall Z, Yu Yu Hakashu, Inuyasha,
Naruto, Street Fighter 2 V, 3x3 eyes, Sailor Moon, Gundam Wing
Trigun, Fatal Fury,etc there is a lot more.
What do you think about this? |
Sometimes its necessary to hype the fight depending on the combat styles. For example DBZ is a lot of heya-heya-heya super fighting so a break is appreciated at times. Same goes for a lot of the anime you listed. However when its more of a street fighting combat(not street fighter mind ya) then I completely agree with you because then it just ruins the vibe and the intensity of the fight. As far as people talking, if its a shonen anime then yea they got to update the fight as it goes on so its kind of expected.
|
Back to top |
|
|
NyuuChan
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 575
|
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:04 pm
|
|
|
fighterholic wrote: | I can agree with Kin7cato, I watch all kinds of anime, and there is definetly a lot of dialogue in battle scenes. I think the worst is Yu-Gi-Oh! for talking, though. |
if you mean the constant gibber-gabber between the two combatants (duelists), thats not technically fighting in the traditional sense. What i mean is, they're commanding the mosters to attack on turn, it's like animated poker; they have to explain what they're doing (which is one of my fav. parts of the show )
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kin7cato
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 99
|
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:48 am
|
|
|
Dark Hand its not too difficult to make a good fight scene.
You make it out to be much harder than it seems.
I feel you over exaggerate.
What I don't understand is how a show like Boondocks actually has better fight scenes and animation. {for example episode 12} Then practically all of the anime I mentioned earlier in my first post.
What the hell is that about? The Boondocks is a freakin comedy! Its not even serious. [like some of the titles I mentioned in my first post.] Not only that but I think the show is its first or second season. This implies that it has limited funding. And it doesn't even come close to the budget of Inuyasha or Naruto. Let alone the popularity. And the fight scenes are that great.
Surely something is wrong.
The problem is that the fights needs better directors and artists who don't get lazy. And strive for perfection rather than saying "ah that looks all right."
|
Back to top |
|
|
|