Forum - View topicANN x Fansubs
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Pleroma
 Posts: 443 Location: Eromanga island |
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The "news" in the title implies a journalistic approach to the issue at hand. As long as that remains true then how the information for things such as "buzz" columns or other comments with regards to yet unliscenced anime should be ultimatly irrelevant.
A journalist will very often get their information from less than official sources as thier primary goal is to provide the reader with the absolute best information and commentary possible while not outwardly violating any laws other than perhaps withhelding information from authorities in order to keep their source. This does not mean the person "supports" anyone, they are merely doing their job. Hardliners like Mohawk here aside, fansubs are for most of the community and ANN in particular what is called a public secret. Everyone knows about it/does it but does not speak of it or denies involvement. Personally I find it ridiculous, but teh rules are teh rules and as long as they do not hamper the site's journalstic qualities I take no issue with them. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Well, we're happy for you that you find people making a living from doing their work is ridiculous. Greedy slave drivers aside, most people understand and respect the industry but also accept that fansubs are a portion of the anime realm that isn't going to go away. I'm against fansubs, but understand why people use them and only really have an issue with those who use them as a means to bypass any need to pay people for their work. A lot of anime never makes it here and never will, and often times it's hard to know if you're really going to like a series from trailers and reviews alone, so fansubs serve a purpose for respectable consumers which is where a large number of ANN regulars fall. I have no issue with those who use fansubs in a respectable manner, nor do I have an issue with ANN staff using fansubs in an equal manner.
Regardless, this is best locked, because we all know whether the intent was there or not, that this will be a fansub debate very soon. |
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SharinganEyes92
 Posts: 816 |
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Actually, I think ANN does damn good job of putting down the use of fansubs. Before I joined ANN, I used to download all my anime, licensed or unlicensed (it wasn't a very long time though. Also, it was only like two series). However, when I joined I looked at the forums and saw all the anti-piracy talk and decided to change my ways.
I recently had a fight and even wrestled my brother when he was about to buy a bootleg Rurouni Kenshin. Unfortunately, I lost, but I plan on buying a good copy of the series at the end of the summer, when I receive my paycheck. I guess what I should be saying is "Thank You ANN for showing me the light." |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
 Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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I've gotten into the anime scene long before fansubs were even thought of being made available through the internet, in fact when digital video was still in its infancy. And I'd like to hear comments about what others with the same background think of the state of the anime community right now, which has become almost entirely based in the cyberworld of the internet. AnimeNewsNetwork will and has always been an internet entity. It's development couldn't have been possible without all the other aspects that the World Wide Web brings us, whether it be digital fansubs, information, forums, news, online reveiws, etc. It's all apart of one big wonderful realm, and I don't think one piece could exist without any of the others.
I think so many of us has forgotten about the conveniences that the internet brings us while getting wrapped in all these ethical issues of some of the less respectable elements that come with it. Nothing is perfect, most of all the internet. Those of us that complain that fansubs are evil and immoral have a right to do so. But to act out against them, and deny that they are part of the internet and online anime community are just blinded by the assumption that the internet is a perfect and happy place. Please everybody accept and appreciate this fantastic world we are lucky to be apart of, but don't condemn those of us that are apart of it in ways you don't agree with. |
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opaquescum
Posts: 235 |
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I think my biggest gripe about the site when it comes to fansubbing is the way some forum members go about spreading the word. Fine your into a series you have seen illegally. Good for you, and I am happy you have enjoyed it. Though there is a kind of twisted assumption that runs rampant in these forums.
Some forum members, and moderators go about their fascination in the most blatant, and quite frankly rude manner possible. The line in my oppinion is drawn at solicitation. Solicitation as in someone soliciting an oppinion from the forum members be it recommendation, or a general question about anime. Now I understand some forum members do not discern between illegal anime, and legal anime. That mindset is wrong for starters you get both types in totally different ways. That should be justification enough for you to seperate the two groups. Secondly some people will not go and do an illegal act. This is where the rude part comes into play. Yes it is rude to recommend a illegal anime when that person has not solicited illegal anime. This is rude you are makeing the assumption that the poster you are typeing to is of a criminal intent. How would you feal if someone walked up to you, and said they know you are into shoplifting. Then they followed it up with the security cameras at the local walmart are down for maintanance. Well some people would be incensed at the insinuation. Some people will be confused, and others would just let it slide. Afterall they may be into five finger discounts. Whether you have set out to insult someone, or they take it as an insult is actually not the point. What is the point is that it is in poor taste. That means in a civil setting like these forums you probabally should not behave in that mannor. This behavior also leads to peer pressure. Some people just got to be hip, and when you behave as if it is the norm. Well some people follow the crowd. Some people will not even understand that they do have a right to a personal choice on the matter. No matter the setting people should promote individuality on the part of others. That makes for a better forum all around. Even if you support fansubbing you should be for others being able to feal they can act in a way that fits their nature. Sure some of them will go for the illegal way some will not, but nobody should ever feal compelled to do something. Something which might make them feal bad to be part of the community. Then their is the mentality this all brings up that this is a site about illegal activity. Hey do you go to the bad side of town alot? Some people shy away from places that are filled with criminal enterprise. When they come to this site for the first time, and they figure out that people here do not differentiate illegal, and legal they form an oppinion. That oppinion is that this is a site filled with alot of less then savory people. This does not lead to a dynamic or varied community. The net result ends up being alot of people that think exactly alike, and eventually we will get to a point where the discussion is one dimensional. I really have to ask the question how many people have stopped useing these forums, because of the above conduct. How many potential members took one look at these forums, and said this looks pretty sinister. I am willing to bet more then a few. Now I do not think the anti fansub crowd is demanding that people not discuss fansubs, but in my personal oppinion with a little decorum the situation could be made better, and it is not a good situation now. What I would like to see is this. When someone solicits the forum members for something unless the explicitly say hey I am open to fansubs that they are asking for legal anime. Let us all just make the assumption that they are lawful. Maybe without your fansub reference to stand on you might not have anything to contribute, but nobody has said you had to contribute to every thread. Now if you feal god I just got to tell this person about this show it really fits this spot perfectly okay, but do it in a tactful way. Like if you are into illegal downloads might I recommend this series. See that your not just assumeing the person is a criminal. That is a polite way to bring up something that the poster might not be into, and not only are they not confused which by the way some of them are. I know we have all seen this confusion, and it detracts from the forums. Afterall when people talk about things that make no sense to you. Well you might feal this is not a place for you. When you want to discuss a fansub series at length take the time to just say upfront that its a illegal download, or a fansub. That is not too hard, and thus everyone is on the same page. People who are not into fansubs can move along. Do not get angry with legal anime viewers, because they are not telling you not to list fansubs. This is just silly you are going about it all wrong. Nobody should be expected to go around saying I am not looking for black market goods. You do not do that in your day to day lives. Atleast I hope not. Posters should not feal obligated to inform you that they are just legit viewers. Not to be blunt either, but many people that come here to post are clueless about fansubs. I have noticed some posters here make it a point to be as polite as they can be about this issue. Some fansubbers, and other legal viewers. They should be applauded for what should be common sense. Now if more people just made it common practice it would help these forums out. The communication would be more civil. There would be less confusion that is for sure. Plus even though illegal material is being discussed it would be in a way that makes it clear that it is illegal. |
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crazydumbek
 Posts: 182 |
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So by your reasoning, I would be endorsing theft by raving about one of a store's many fine products. Bummer. 
The Staff of ANN has every right to be picky with the information that they divulge about anime. If they refuse to aid in the fansub movement, so be it. You're going to have to another site for your fansub info. Here's the rub: What you do on that other site is your business, not ANN's. Because, ANN should not be held responsible for any shenanigans you do outside ANN.
Easily fixed... WTF!!!!! THAT DAMN VIZ IS ACTUALLY 4KIDS IN DISGUISE BCUZ THEY'RE BASTARDIZING ADULT-THEMED ANIME LIKE NARUTO AND MAKING IT KIDDIE!!!!!!! BELIEVE IT!!! |
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frentymon
Forums Superstar
 Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
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I have rarely, if ever, seen people here go "Watch (this unlicensed series)! Go! Now!" While I agree that that is not a good thing to do, I don't believe that it is wrong to recommend an unlicensed series or mention one. If a person is very ethical and refuses to watch fansubs, then that's absolutely fine. They just don't have to do anything. No one is forcing or pressuring them to go watch the series.
Again, if this person does not want to watch "illegal anime," then by no means do they have to. If they see a recommendation as peer pressure, it is not the fault of the person giving the recommendation. I must reiterate that most people that recommend anime here do so in a very relaxed manner, without any implication of pressure. I wouldn't call it rude; it's not like people are saying "go download fansubs." I mean, there's always R2 DVDs, right?
That analogy only would work if there were people on the forum said things along the lines of, "I know you love fansubs. Nobody will notice you, just go download one." I have yet to see that statement from any intellegent user here, and recommending an unlicensed anime is vastly different from jumping right out and telling them to download. Again, there's R2 DVDs, in which even my Japanese-illiterate friend managed to get the gist of what's going on when he watched a few episodes.
I have not seen anyone bow into pressure that way. The majority of people that I know of that don't watch a single fansub pride themselves in the fact that they don't download, and could care less about what is the norm. You can't blame everyone else if one person feels pressure. That's like saying you must turn off the music playing in a store because one of the customers absolutely cannot stand it.
If we have to start assuming that everyone we recommend to is absolutely 100% against downloading and fansubs, we might as well assume that everyone can understand Japanese as well. Then, we can still recommend unlicensed series anyway. After all, if they don't want to download, they can just buy the R2 DVDs.
Why? If a person despises fansubs, then he/she can choose to not discuss the particular series. And honestly, not too many people absolutely 100% condemn fansubs. |
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Bruce Lee
 Posts: 715 Location: Seattle, Washington |
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Have you seen the 94,000 page Suzumiya thread? 
Seriously, I think that most midrange to hardcore fans know its out there, and for the most part, the fansub distribution discussion (or lack thereof) is rather tasetfull. ANN isn't dumb - they know what's going on. But there's a fine line between "DL WAREZ HERE" and "Fansub=Insta-ban". It's got to be a tough job making all of us happy, while still trying to maintain a business relationship with American licensees and vendors for ad revenue, interviews, news scoops, and everything else. Because of this, it would probably be in their best interests to keep the fansub discussion to a minumum - but as a news agency, part of their job is to report new announcements - most of which are not R1 licensed. I don't envy their position. Another thing to keep in mind is that it's not just R1 we're talking about. The internet is universal, and therefore, we have people from countries all around the globe viewing news articles, and participating in discussions. Barring talk to "R1 licensed properties only" would be shortsighted to say the least - if not a major blow for the community here. I think they're doing it right here. No asking for downloads, no mentioning illegal downloads, but permitting (mostly) intelligent discussion. I think that if it wasn't for all the 1337K1Dz recomending (insert hot fan-sub here) to a fan of Dukes of Hazard, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Stealing is not 1337, it's not cool, and it's deffinitely not something to brag about. But then again, with my various stupid avatars and mindless trolls over the years, I'm not one to talk 
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RDespair
 Posts: 244 Location: California |
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The internet is international. I daresay some of the staff members have fluency in Japanese and/or live in Asia. If they're recommending a series that isn't officially in English yet, that doesn't mean they necessarily watched it through fansubs.
I live in Taiwan. I own some official Taiwanese (not bootlegs) anime DVDs like Monster & the second Naruto movie. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to discuss those series & movies simply because they're not available in R1 yet. After all, much of the news on the main page concerns events in Japan and other places in Asia. Simply put, there's a difference between saying "Monster is great" and "Monster is great. Be sure to download the fansub from so-and-so group at so-and-so site." The second one is advocating illegal activity. The first one is merely stating an opinion that could easily lead to legal activity (like buying the R2 DVDs or waiting and buying the series when a company decides to translate it). |
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Wolverine Princess
 Posts: 1100 |
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[OT]I was Hot Topic the other day and the only people in the store were me, my mom, the guy working the counter, and maybe two other kids. They were blasting bad music at an ear-shattering volume, and I jokingly roar like a dinosaur and say to the counter guy, "This music makes my brain explode!" The counter guy gets sparkles in his eyes and says, "Yeah! This is total crap!" and turns the music off. The other kids in the store glare at me angrily, and some people look in the store with confused faces, probably thinking, "Why is this store not playing bad music like it always does?!" But the counter guy doesn't care. I think he was tired, since he fell asleep right on the spot. Sorry for being OT, I was just suddenly reminded of that incident and wanted to type it up.[/OT] |
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Deltakiral
 Posts: 3338 Location: Glendora, CA (Avatar Hei from Darker than BLACK) |
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Till next time, Delta Kiral |
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cyrax777
 Posts: 1825 Location: the desert |
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seems to me ANN has a DONT ASK DONT TELL policy about it.
Ie we dont care that your watching fansubs we just dont want to hear about whos your favorite group, where you got them etc. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator  Posts: 11311 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Wow. To think all of this animosity has arisen just because I told someone what my favorite mystery anime was... I am SO sorry and deeply apologize for offending you and the rest of the anime community that are against fansubs. As per your 100% and absolute vehemence against myself and everything I stand for then, perhaps I should just resign as moderator and leave you all in peace? If you would like to take my place and carry a single standard of moderating any and all discussion of anime within these forums, feel free to have at it. I believe I made my point in the other thread about how not a single person here is obligated to listen to me, nor am I even remotely trying to pressure them into doing something that would go against their morals and ethics. The influence of fansubs is clear and can't be helped at this point. The choice is simple; you either do it or you don't. I will stop discussing unlicensed titles and will not recommend anything that doesn't have a U.S. company's name on it from now to eternity. I will lock any and all threads that mention a series not licensed on R1. I will do everything in accordance to what is specifically unwritten, though indirectly implied about the issues of fansubs and anything being fansubbed or else I'll be damned and condemned for the evils of liking anime and letting other people discuss it. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11311 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Seriously, I will lock the Suzumiya thread and at least half another dozen threads on the first page right now if I get some kind of majority vote.
From now on, state "yay" or "nay" in every single post for your stance on whether ANN forums should limit discussions to R1 titles only. No questions asked, no regard for anyone outside of the U.S., NOTHING. Just more civil and less confusing discussion to make everyone happy  .
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frentymon
Forums Superstar
Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
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Let's see what would happen if all the threads on the first page with any nods toward fansubs were to be locked/deleted/whatever.
-Requesting Downloads is NOT Allowed must be locked because it affirms the existence of downloads and fansubs. -General Anime Questions must be locked because unlicensed titles were discussed there. -Your avatar. must be locked because many people describe their avatars as being characters from unlicensed titles. -10 favorite and 5 least favorite anime? must be locked because there's definitely unlicensed titles mentioned in there. A lot of them. -Identifying Anime must be locked because many unlicensed titles were identified. -Moé Tournament must be locked because it contains characters from unlicensed titles. Not to mention, some people are extremely offended by the HORROR that is moe, so we must respect them and remove this atrocity at once. -Looking for a new anime to watch? Click here to know how. must be locked because it mentions AnimeNfo.com, and if you dig around that place and look hard enough you can find links to places that link to places that link to places that contain fansubs. -All the "filler" threads must be locked too because the filler in all of the mainstream shounen titles hasn't been broadcasted on television yet. Okay, there's way too many threads, but almost all of the threads here at least mention unlicensed titles. Yes, the unlicensed titles which of course always leads to extreme pressure which leads to downloading which leads to guilt. If a rule that said "absolutely no mention, implication, or nod to fansubs whatsever" was instated, people would break it every day, mostly by accident, because it is erroneously difficult to keep discussion to only licensed titles. I'd say a lot of people would leave and go elsewhere to discuss the latest episode of Haruhi, or whatever is new. So with all that said and done, I'm for nay. |
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