Forum - View topicThe Mike Toole Show - Animation Appreciation
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Mister Ryan Andrews
 Posts: 219 |
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I see a lot more of the opposite on certain places, especially from people who don't even like anime. People making sweeping generalizations about 'generic anime style' then praise some random obscure show just because it's different, not because it's good. "AT LEAST THEY TRIED TO BE DIFFERENT!" people will claim, as if means anything after they committed the fallacy of saying there exists a 'generic anime style' which shows they are not fit to be judging art styles if they think Pokemon looks the same as Bakemonogatari. |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14790 |
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Heh, talk to GATSU about anime aesthetics. |
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GeorgeC
Posts: 795 |
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Older animation can be an acquired taste. Also, storytelling and animation techniques were very much still in development during the 1930s. It was really Disney that trailblazed the way and developed a higher standard of animation for characterization. The best alternate animation studios (Warner Bros, MGM) picked up on what Disney was doing and emulated it starting in the later 1930s and progressing through the end of the Golden Age of Hollywood animation in the mid-1950s. It also helped that artists rotated back-and-forth between studios taking important story development AND character animation skills with them. A few of the best MGM animators were trained at Disney! The better WB/Looney Tunes directors analyzed the Disney shorts and features and incorporated lessons from those into their own work. It's not to say other studios DIDN'T make their innovations -- the funniest sight gags and caricature art was done at MGM and WB, NOT Disney(!) -- but their artwork and animation definitely improved after they looked at the Disney animation and analyzed it. Prior to Disney, the highest level of animation was the work of Winsor McCay, the cartoonist who created the "Little Nemo" comic strip and animated "Gertie the Dinosaur." Until Disney started demanding higher-quality work and better training for his animators, Winsor McCay had perhaps the best quality animation around, period. Not great character personality animation but definitely better movement and understanding of anatomy than other animators up through about the mid-1930s. The difference in attitude that Disney and McCay shared is why "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" is celebrated as a classic today and why "Gulliver's Travels" is mostly forgotten... "Gulliver" simply isn't as good as "Snow White" as far as storytelling, characterization, and animation are concerned. "Gulliver" is a far duller film to sit through, next-to-nobody remembers music from "Gulliver", and the animation is less convincing than "Snow White" in general. Some of the characters in "Gulliver" come off as abrasive instead of memorable and loveable. The lead character is as dull as dish water, too. That doesn't help the film's case! The next Fleischer film, "Mr. Bug Goes to Town" aka "Hoppity Goes to Town" aka "Bugville" was a bit better but still not great shakes. It's been forgotten because it bombed at the box office, was virtually disowned by the studio that paid for it (Paramount), and came close to the end of the Fleischer Studios in 1942. The Fleischer animation with the most personality were definitely their Popeye shorts -- they're also by far the funnest Fleischer series to sit through and one of the best short film series of the 1930s, period... I like the Popeye shorts much better than Betty Boop, Mickey Mouse, and any of the 1930s Looney Tunes put together. Their best technical animation might have been the World War II Superman shorts they did; they are definitely the best animated superhero animation I've seen. Fleischer couldn't quite make it with feature animation which is the only way the studio would have survived past the mid-1950s when theatrical animated shorts died out for the most part. I've been watching Space Dandy and while the series is okay I don't find it as memorable as Cowboy Bebop. I really don't understand the comparisons other than shared creative personnel -- the focus of Dandy is definitely on absurd comedy but even that's not working as well as the semi-serious tone of Bebop. Production quality and the vocal casting of the dub are generally as good as Bebop but I find the non-connected nature of the episodes and general wandering of the scripts are a bit of a turn-off for me. I'm more inclined to buy Bebop again on Blu ray than spend money on Dandy after the newer show finishes its run... Dandy is worth watching/renting but not shelf-worthy for me. The show doesn't have to be ground-breaking for me to buy it but I just don't like it enough as it is to buy it, either. |
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Mikeski
Posts: 608 Location: Minneapolis, MN |
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Just enjoy your anime for what you enjoy it for. |
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danilo07
 Posts: 1580 |
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So you are comparing animation to typesetting.That is truly an amazing answer. |
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Mikeski
Posts: 608 Location: Minneapolis, MN |
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One can enjoy anime for a whole number of reasons, and there's absolutely no reason that "understanding of animators and animation technique" is required to be among them. Asserting otherwise is snobbishness on an unbelievable level. (Edit, since initial quotes have been pruned: "animation and animators are cool, and understanding them is a worthwhile endeavor for anime fans"--what the original article was about--I agree with. "If you're not willing to understand everything about animation and animation production (and voice acting and seiyuu and the visual novel the show was based on and etc etc etc), you should just go read a book"... that is a bunch of hooey.) |
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danilo07
Posts: 1580 |
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Oh my God,really animation has nothing to do with the story,just as typesetting doesn't ?Our enjoyment of the story is largely dependent on animation itself.You can have whatever type for printing you want and the effects on your enjoyment of the story would be minimal.The closest thing to animation in literature is the writing style.Now imagine if a high-school student rewrote all of the dialogue in Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet",but still kept the entire story intact.Would in that scenario"Romeo and Juliet" still be considered an amazing classic?No,and the same goes for animation.Just for a quick example imagine if the love making scene in "Mind Game" was replaced by colored storyboards of that scene.Would it still have the same emotional impact?After all the story is the same. And no I am not advocating that people devote themselves entirely to animation,it would just be nice if people don't ignore it so easily. EDIT:
I didn't say that I merely questioned why, if people are so apathetic about animation and merely care about story,don't they just read books.Since I am sure that they will find more quality stories there. |
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Touma
 Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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I think that you have gotten away from the point that Mikeski was making, or perhaps I misunderstood. To put it in context you need to go back to your first post in this thread:
I think that Mikeski's point was that we do not need to know anything about the animators in order to enjoy the anime. I think that we all agree that anime has to be animated, and that the style and quality of the animation will affect how much we enjoy the story. But we do not need to know how the animation was done or who did it. I certainly believe that even if it is not what Mikeski meant to say. And I do not presume to speak for him. Personally, except for some of the songs and the English dub, I do not pay any attention to the credits. I do not really care who did what or how they did it. Being interested in the animators is totally different from being interested in the anime. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being interested in the animators, or the writers, or the actors, or any of the many people needed to make the anime. But there is also nothing wrong with not being interested in any of those people. I can enjoy "Romeo and Juliet" without knowing what kind of pen Shakespeare used when he wrote it, or even without knowing who wrote it. |
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danilo07
Posts: 1580 |
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^ You are absolutely right,my issue lies with those who utterly diminish the function of animation.You only need to go back to Mike's column "Anime Gets Sloppy " to read comments and see that there are people who compare animation to font size,making it almost irrelevant in that sense.
Going back to my first comment I can see where people might have gotten the wrong idea about my true intentions.I do apologize for that. |
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Mikeski
Posts: 608 Location: Minneapolis, MN |
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Touma has restated my points fairly, so apparently they're getting across.
Why I'm hearing tangential arguments about rewrites of Shakespeare (which have been done: West Side Story, amongst 10,736 others), as though they're a counter to what I'm saying, I do not know. Yes, Beethoven on a kazoo is inferior to Beethoven on a Stradivarius. Where did I imply otherwise? I don't need to understand violin manufacture or the Stradivari family (or the life of Beethoven, for that matter) to enjoy his music, though. Yes, animation as a series of off-model stills is inferior to actual animation. I don't know anyone who would disagree with that. A W H O L E N O V E L W R I T T E N L I K E T H I S W O U L D B E C O M P A R A B L E , I T H I N K ? So I don't know why I should go read a book if I don't know what "on the twos" means, or if I don't examine what I'm watching to identify it as being animated as such. Examples as extreme as "romeo and juliet rewritten by some high schooler" and "Mind Game as a series of stills" seems to me to be the polar opposite of "my issue lies [only?] with those who utterly diminish the function of animation"... If you actually mean the latter, then I guess we're in violent agreement, but I don't know of anyone who "diminishes" animation to that extent. If you actually mean the former (and the bit about going to read a book instead), then I still think you're being a snob. 
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danilo07
Posts: 1580 |
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I think I explained my position in my previous two posts quite clearly,but I will just restate it here again.If you don't what to analyze animation in anime,that is completely fine with me( though I do think it would be nicer if there were more people interested in examining the animation,but I can understand this position). However,when you completely divorce animation from story and make claims that visuals have nothing to do with the story,then yes I have to wonder why the hell are you an anime fan.
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Thatguy3331
 Posts: 1795 |
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This is a great article, Space Dandy was already beginning to grow on me and now I like it even more (F yeah second season!)
As someone who's interested in the field of animation I learned some interesting stuff here, and now I'm more motivated to try and go to panels and meet some of these people should I ever get the chance. |
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StudioToledo
 Posts: 847 Location: Toledo, U.S.A. |
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And if you're my age, you'd probably hear the tune in Cheech Marin's "Born in East L.A." Of course I first heard the tune as the 45 was in my mom's record collection. |
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reanimator
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Thank god you're not into "who drew what" aspect of animation drawings. You might go broke if you're totally into it. Still I think prices of some cel drawings are overpriced just because it's either popular or pretty to look at. (One reason why I avoid buying cels) Artist names do help certain drawings in auctions though. I remember someone trying to sell original character setting drawings (not copy) of Robot Carnival by Yoshiyuki Sadamoto of Evangelion and Wolf Children fame for 500,000 yen ($5,000). I'm not sure if someone in Japan bought them, but it sure skyrocketed. Personally I would love to see studios auction off piles of unwanted drawings or redistribute among studio artists instead putting them into shredders. It's waste of money and labor to shred expensive animation paper (10 yen per blank sheet and estimated 200 ~1000 yen per drawing). However, if they're under the contract not to sell off drawings, then it can't be helped. |
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StudioToledo
Posts: 847 Location: Toledo, U.S.A. |
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I would suggest buying the original roughs or clean-up drawings myself, those are worth more in my book.
No different from the kind of BS that shows up in animation collecting here.
If they were wise they would send those drawings off to potential stores that may buy them for resale to their customers. |
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