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Paradox295



Joined: 30 Mar 2011
Posts: 53
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:14 pm Reply with quote
Okay, kids. Let's just remind ourselves that she threatened to kill herself if Eron didn't get back together with her.

That's abuse. That's the cherry on top of the pile of abusive behavior this woman is guilty of.

Everyone wants to talk about the fact that she did 5 people. I take no issue with that. She's a person and she's allowed to engage in sexual relationships with people for whatever reason she wants.

But nobody wants to talk about the fact that she gaslighted and was deceitful towards her long term partner while she was having sex with those 5 people.

The whole narrative is "this man posted a nasty, nasty message revealing this woman's personal life, isn't she such a victim", when... no. She's not. She abused him.

If you're skeptical of my claim, then reverse the genders. If a woman made a blog post, accusing her ex-boyfriend of threatening suicide if she didn't get back together with him, we wouldn't be referring to it as an "ugly piece of breakup wreckage", would we? We wouldn't be referring to her as "bitter ex looking to hurt her ex".

Hell, Max Temkin gets accused of rape by a woman he claims he hadn't had contact with in almost a decade and didn't even have sex with, and we're misogynists if we dare to be skeptical of her accusation.

What's different? Why is there a double standard here? Why are we treating women as children who "just don't know any better"?

Society rarely recognizes women as abusers and men as victims of abuse, and personally, I believe that to be a form of misogyny.

It's depressing to see all these people in the gaming, animation, etc industries who are feminists, consider themselves to be progressive people and are pushing this misogynistic bullshit when it benefits them.

The gaming community isn't pro-misogyny. They're sick of being told they're misogynist because they're responsible for the minority of those in the community who do act in a certain way (which is absurd as saying that feminists are responsible for the minority of insane feminists who want to cull the male population to 10% or whatever), by people who will then turn round and treat women like children and say they don't deserve criticism. That they don't deserve to be treated like men.

It's... it's depressing.
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Surrender Artist



Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 3264
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:23 pm Reply with quote
Protestations that ‘people who care about social justice’ (never have faith in the validity of a criticism when it has been reduced to an initialism) are just as bad as gamers reminds me of Republicans claiming that Democrats are waging the real ‘war on women’ because Bill Clinton is an unfaithful cad or whatever. Yes, that behavior sucks, but they’re missing the point.

1. Why were people so furious at Depression Quest anyway? Thinking that it’s a bad game is one thing, but the response seemed clearly disproportionate and disjunctive.

2. Where is an actual review that Ms. Quinn got in exchange for sexual favors? It would seem like the claims that this is about corruption would require a smoking gun. As far as I can tell, there’s not even a damp water pistol.

3. Why the intense focus on Zoe Quinn and ‘people who care about social justice’? If this is about games journalism, then I would expect it to target a wider array of more important targets and the system that they represent. The controversy seems to have in fact been very narrow and personalized. A few years ago there was an actual scandal about Gamespot’s review of Kane & Lynch that got a weaker response than this.

4. Why have the claims of a clearly bitter ex-boyfriend been so credulously believed? The very nature of his relationship with Ms. Quinn offers clear, reasonable grounds to doubt their honesty and accuracy.

5. If ‘people who care about social justice’ have actually been even a fraction as bad as her assailants in this, so what? The two sides don’t represent the same thing. The people harassing Zoe Quinn represent a a broader, systemic and pervasive social problem. It’s ultimately a, potentially self-serving, obfuscating distraction anyway, because whatever some of Zoe Quinn’s defenders have done, it’s not an excuse or justification of any other behavior.

6. How stupid are you people? The attacks on Anita Sarkeesian won her Kickstarter campaign a lot of extra pledges from people who wanted to thumb their noses at her assailants. All the attacks on Zoe Quinn have done are make gamers look worse and worse, probably increased interest in her works and polarized more people against the people leading the campaign against her. As awful as what has happened was, some solace can be found in the fact that it amounts to people digging their own graves.
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 1524
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:34 pm Reply with quote
^7. Depression Quest is essentially a free game, what could she possibly gain by sleeping around for reviews?

This whole thing is nuts...
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Levitz9



Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:35 pm Reply with quote
Paradox295 wrote:
Okay, kids. Let's just remind ourselves that she threatened to kill herself if Eron didn't get back together with her.

...

The whole narrative is "this man posted a nasty, nasty message revealing this woman's personal life, isn't she such a victim", when... no. She's not. She abused him.


Because what happened between them clearly matters in this entire situation. What's most important is Quinn's character, and she did XYZ, so clearly, none of what happened to her is a factor! /not

It's like the whole Chris Brown thing where he claims Rhianna hit him first. Hitting back wasn't the right response anyway. Besides, if she threatened to kill herself, it's probably because of that clinical depression she has. Sure, in addition to her character, let's bring her pathology into this. Women be crazy, amirite?

Paradox295 wrote:

Hell, Max Temkin gets accused of rape by a woman he claims he hadn't had contact with in almost a decade and didn't even have sex with, and we're misogynists if we dare to be skeptical of her accusation.

What's different? Why is there a double standard here? Why are we treating women as children who "just don't know any better"?

Society rarely recognizes women as abusers and men as victims of abuse, and personally, I believe that to be a form of misogyny.


Look up "rape culture". As it stands, 40% of all rapes are reported. Only 40. That's counting the many, many cases that get called off afterwards. There's this odd thing that many rape victims go through where their accusations are questioned, their character is questioned (like Quinn's! Fancy that!), and the rape has to be proven/disproven via a variety of invasive methods. Oh, and there's also the lengthy trial that normally comes along with this.

There's no "double standard" here. Claiming rape is like having to go through it all over again. Men go through it, too, and the same people trying to help female victims help male victims (like RAINN). Your definition of misogeny is lacking. Try harder.

Paradox295 wrote:

It's depressing to see all these people in the gaming, animation, etc industries who are feminists, consider themselves to be progressive people and are pushing this misogynistic bullshit when it benefits them.

The gaming community isn't pro-misogyny. They're sick of being told they're misogynist because they're responsible for the minority of those in the community who do act in a certain way (which is absurd as saying that feminists are responsible for the minority of insane feminists who want to cull the male population to 10% or whatever), by people who will then turn round and treat women like children and say they don't deserve criticism. That they don't deserve to be treated like men.

It's... it's depressing.


This all sounds disturbingly like "NOT ALL GAMERS!".

Here's the difference between gamers and feminists: feminism is a movement with a small army of different ideologies. You can't blame a black feminist for the actions of a marxist feminist. Gaming is presented as a "culture" (a laughable notion), a united community. If they're so united, then they're all responsible for the actions of their lesser peers.

The community says they're not gore-hungry misogenists who send rape-threats, but then the community gets angry when their gore is censored and the media they consume and the industry that makes it is criticized for its misogeny Methinks the community doth protest too much.

If it hurts so much to be called a misogenist, then get out the mop and bucket and clean up the foul-mouthed heathens that stain your reputation. Otherwise, segment your "culture" and separate yourself from those toxic individuals.
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AnimenexuS





PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:37 pm Reply with quote
People still freaking about some stupid Hashtag. You don't need hashtag harass people over twitter.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:47 pm Reply with quote
Surrender Artist wrote:

2. Where is an actual review that Ms. Quinn got in exchange for sexual favors? It would seem like the claims that this is about corruption would require a smoking gun. As far as I can tell, there’s not even a damp water pistol.


As far as I can tell, this hinged entirely on her dating a Kotaku writer, who mentioned her in a single article about something much larger before they started dating and never reviewed her game or wrote anything else about her. Just barely glancing at what was written and when completely debunked this entire thing.
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Paradox295



Joined: 30 Mar 2011
Posts: 53
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:51 pm Reply with quote
Levitz9 wrote:
Besides, if she threatened to kill herself, it's probably because of that clinical depression she has. Sure, in addition to her character, let's bring her pathology into this. Women be crazy, amirite?


Clinical Depression is a reason. Not an excuse for shitty behaviour.

Levitz9 wrote:
Look up "rape culture".


I hardly see how this is a rape culture, as this is not a prison nor a third world country.

Rape is one of the worst things a human being can be accused of and will damage an innocent person's life if they are wrongly accused.

In a rape culture, we'd be celebrating that person.

Levitz9 wrote:
As it stands, 40% of all rapes are reported. Only 40. That's counting the many, many cases that get called off afterwards. There's this odd thing that many rape victims go through where their accusations are questioned, their character is questioned (like Quinn's! Fancy that!)


What does Quinn's character being questioned have to do with it? Why are we equating her with a rape victim here?

Again. She's not the victim. Women can be the perpetrators of abuse and men can be the victims of it. I don't know why people struggle with this.

Levitz9 wrote:
and the rape has to be proven/disproven via a variety of invasive methods. Oh, and there's also the lengthy trial that normally comes along with this.

There's no "double standard" here. Claiming rape is like having to go through it all over again. Men go through it, too, and the same people trying to help female victims help male victims (like RAINN). Your definition of misogeny is lacking. Try harder.


"Alleged criminals are given a fair chance at proving their innocence and people aren't locked up whenever they get the finger pointed at them. I believe this to be a form of misogyny".

Levitz9 wrote:
This all sounds disturbingly like "NOT ALL GAMERS!".

Here's the difference between gamers and feminists: feminism is a movement with a small army of different ideologies. You can't blame a black feminist for the actions of a marxist feminist. Gaming is presented as a "culture" (a laughable notion), a united community. If they're so united, then they're all responsible for the actions of their lesser peers.

The community says they're not gore-hungry misogenists who send rape-threats, but then the community gets angry when their gore is censored and the media they consume and the industry that makes it is criticized for its misogeny Methinks the community doth protest too much.

If it hurts so much to be called a misogenist, then get out the mop and bucket and clean up the foul-mouthed heathens that stain your reputation. Otherwise, segment your "culture" and separate yourself from those toxic individuals.


The problem with the "not all men" (or in this case, "gamers") thing is, the people who are most likely to swiftly dismiss the argument are the same people who scream "not all feminists are like that" whenever a prominent feminist spewing anti-male hate speech is brought up.

I mean, which is it? Are people represented by a label responsible for making sure that label isn't being tarnished, or aren't they?
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Levitz9



Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:02 pm Reply with quote
Paradox295 wrote:
*snip*


I'm getting a little worried here because it feels like you're not even reading what I typed. You're continuing on some tangent even though I addressed all of your points.
You can't blame a person in a clinical depression for their actions because they're not in a stable frame of mind. It was her ex's responsibility to get himself in a safer situation, if he felt threatened--not air out her dirty laundry.

I talk about rape, and even bring up statistics and mention how men are affected, you go on about how men are raped too, and won't someone think of the men? Read what I wrote again: rape victims carry the burden of proving what was done to them, in addition to all of the public shame they endure. That's rape culture. Whether it's done to men or women is irreverent, and it doesn't change a damn thing, especially when there are organizations that are trying to stem the tide of rape for both men and women. Had you read my post, you'd have seen I listed just one.

I address your plea for "not all gamers", and you continue you "NOT ALL GAMERS!" cry. I explained myself. I explained why "not all feminists" is bullshit. You... you did read it, right? Besides just quote it? Feminism isn't a label, it's a movement with a variety of branches. Gamers are a self-styled "community" whose only division is "us" versus "them", whoever "them" is for this fifteen minutes. There's no comparison.

I made sure my explanations were as clear and concise as possible. I suggest you re-read them a few more times before continuing.
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DigitalFowl



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 24
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:03 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The entire affair makes me wonder. Who would do this? Who would care so much, so violently about video games that they would feel justified in ruining someone for the sake of their hobby? Who would look at the heart of Gamergate, in its misogyny and savagery, and say, “Yes, I want to be part of this” with a straight face?


GamerGate will continue to be unfairly represented with slanderous comments like this and when people assume they know everything about it and everyone involved. To make sweeping generalizations like this is no different than what Kotaku, Gamasutra and the others harassing the people who dare to disagree with how things are handled.

I don't appreciate, as one of the more level headed and critical supporters of gamergate, being accused of being some savage misogynist. Good job on that Todd, claiming you understand EXACTLY what is at the heart of the movement.

At least I don't have the arrogance to assume that I know what the opposition is thinking, especially seeing the myriad of people considering themselves part of it and their differing views. At least I have the decency to acknowledge that something has so many different views and ideals that I'm NOT qualified OR capable of making a judgement and telling people about who and what they are.
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SuperDuperDog



Joined: 18 Dec 2013
Posts: 23
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:22 pm Reply with quote
I've had a really hard time trying to take this Gamer gate thing seriously once it became known that a relatively organized and conducted movement has been at work digging up trash to slander Zoe, acting as human spambots scouring any mention of gamer gate to to jump on, perpetuate lies they don't believe, rehearse talking points to undermine and side step genuine criticism, and manage fake accounts to bolster their support.

So it's all hard to trust, and I'm sure I'll be getting someone telling me to be unbiased and rational and to ignore all that stuff that the SWJ just want you to know so we don't talk about what a monster Zoe is for doing that thing that isn't a complete horrible lie.

Maybe I'd be willing to talk about corruption and ethics if the horrendous flaming misogyny wasn't making itself the bigger issue here.
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shoeshiner



Joined: 01 Jan 2013
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:25 pm Reply with quote
So do you gamergate fellas realize that your rhetoric shares the same format that conspiracy-loving groups like truthers, birthers, and Benghazi-ers, right? That you use, the same kind of messed up argument specialized by the people who make those Nostradamus specials and Ancient Aliens shows, right?

If you are really concerned about video game journalism corruption, go make your own video game review/news sites. It's 2014, you can just start a blog and, if you have the writing skill/charisma, or hell just find the right amount of people to share your echo chamber, you can find your audience. That'll actually be doing something about it, rather than harassing indie game developers who have no power over affecting any of the actual bigwhigs of the industry, like EA, Ubisoft, etc.

You don't want to be considered a savage misogynist? Why don't you stop siding with those who are replying every one of Zoe Quinn's message on social media with death/rape threat. Can you honestly claim that the "harassment" you suffered is worse than that?
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Paradox295



Joined: 30 Mar 2011
Posts: 53
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:27 pm Reply with quote
Levitz9 wrote:


Levitz9 wrote:
It was her ex's responsibility to get himself in a safer situation, if he felt threatened--not air out her dirty laundry.


"It was his ex's responsibility to get herself in a safer situation, if she felt threatened"

Wow. Sounds like a lot like victim blaming when you reverse those genders, doesn't it, chum?

Levitz9 wrote:
[i]rape victims carry the burden of proving what was done to them


You have a problem with innocence until proven guilty?

Levitz9 wrote:
I address your plea for "not all gamers", and you continue you "NOT ALL GAMERS!" cry. I explained myself. I explained why "not all feminists" is bullshit. You... you did read it, right? Besides just quote it? Feminism isn't a label, it's a movement with a variety of branches. Gamers are a self-styled "community" whose only division is "us" versus "them", whoever "them" is for this fifteen minutes. There's no comparison.


We're not talking about ideologies, here. We're talking about labels.

If someone chooses to take the words of a minority group of feminists as what "feminism" stands for, that's ridiculous.

Likewise, choosing to take the words of a minority group of the gaming community as representative of the gaming community as a whole, that's absurd, especially when your aim is (or at least, I hope, should be) to encourage more women and racial minorities to enjoy mediums such as videogames and animation.
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EvilTaxi



Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:28 pm Reply with quote
Gamers have never been known for putting their money where their mouths are. For all of this hubbub, the only thing that's going to end up happening is most of them will just keep coming back to the same sites they're trying to trash and reading things from writers that are trashing them.

It's as sure as the sun rising in the East.
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addiemon



Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:39 pm Reply with quote
DigitalFowl wrote:
I don't appreciate, as one of the more level headed and critical supporters of gamergate, being accused of being some savage misogynist.


My $0.02...I know a lot of gamergate supporters, and some of them are reasonable and legitimately concerned with gaming journalists. My background is in journalism. Believe me, I empathize.

Crazy statement time: the misogyny conversation and the journalism conversation are not actually mutually exclusive. These do not need to be two "sides" that are fighting.

However, they are also not both of equal weight. The ongoing harassment and attempts to drive women out of positions of influence, over games or anything else, are a more critical issue at this time than the corruption of entertainment press, even if it exists to the extent some are claiming.

Unfortunately, a lot of GamerGate supporters are flooding comments, Twitter, etc. with demands that any article/discussion about the misogyny angle MUST share equal time with the journalism angle. These individuals are actually, and probably unintentionally, positioning themselves as the opposition to discussions about misogyny and harassment.

So it should really be no surprise that many people are conflating GamerGate with attempts to shut down the conversation about women in gaming...because that's exactly what it winds up looking like, intentionally or not.
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Paradox295



Joined: 30 Mar 2011
Posts: 53
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:40 pm Reply with quote
shoeshiner wrote:
So do you gamergate fellas realize that your rhetoric shares the same format that conspiracy-loving groups like truthers, birthers, and Benghazi-ers, right? That you use, the same kind of messed up argument specialized by the people who make those Nostradamus specials and Ancient Aliens shows, right?


No. Facts are in play here. You're just choosing to put your fingers in your ears and ignore it.

If you think those facts are false, then you could go ahead and... disprove them?

shoeshiner wrote:
You don't want to be considered a savage misogynist? Why don't you stop siding with those who are replying every one of Zoe Quinn's message on social media with death/rape threat. Can you honestly claim that the "harassment" you suffered is worse than that?


"You like socialism? Why don't you stop siding with Stalin, you commie bastard!"
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