Forum - View topicScum's Wish: Tainted Teenage Love
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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It's so hideously drawn and animated that people cannot bear to look at it. It doesn't have a chance to show us its strengths if the mere glance of it drives people running into the other direction, screaming. 
This show is not pretentious at all. Pretentious is more like cramming your visuals with wacky symbolism and having your characters speak in a cryptic code so you can practically hear the creator screaming "ASK ME WHAT IT MEANS!!!" *coughcoughUTENAcough*
HAHA NOPE. You're comparing this show to a tween soap? No no. Go watch Fushigi Yuugi or Marmalade Boy and then get back to me. Because those make Kuzu look like an absolute masterpiece for a very mature audience. |
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Lifesongsoa
Posts: 34 |
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Pretentious is the wrong word for Scum's Wish.
As someone who generally deals with my own emotional issues without directly relying on anyone else these characters feel realistic to me. Their situation is a perfect storm, but that's fine. Their reaction to the perfect storm is what intrigues me. The storm makes what at any slower or less dramatic a pace would be boring into something exciting. Rather than Scum's Wish being an unrealistic representation of people I'd wager the difference people are picking up on is primarily a personality difference and not a writing mistake or lack of depth. If you feel that way then perhaps these characters and their struggles are things you never dealt with and seem alien to you for that reason. I can say from my own experience that they make so much sense to me it's scary. I think there is an inherent risk of losing your audience in telling any story that pushes personal boundaries. That risk is multiplied when those boundaries are pushed primarily by character perspective. For the people who can connect with or relate with the perspective it becomes meaningful or at least interesting. I'd argue this type of storytelling has the capacity to become more meaningful than many other types of storytelling which is why I want to defend it. For the people who don't make that connection naturally I'm sure it's an uphill battle. An uphill battle is exactly how I feel about Flowers of Evil and to a lesser degree NGE. The characters act in ways that I can honestly say are not and never were realistic for me. I would not do the things they do in their situation. I probably wouldn't even stop to think about doing the things they do if not for having seen their anime. I've no doubt a teenage version of myself would react poorly to being forced to pilot a giant robot for the sake of humanity. It would just be a very different poorly. I think in a very general sense the anime fandom as a whole is too quick to jump on anime personalities and judge them unrealistic. Reality is a lot more flexible than people seem to think. |
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Otaking09
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Uh-huh, and I suppose the show gained no advantage for layering its story with an intriguing choice of art direction in the process right? At least speak for yourself since plenty of people enjoyed Nagasaki's take on the best parts of the manga. I, for one, savored the numerous ways the rotoscope allowed for extra body language to heighten some key moments, but Flowers of Evil - including the core story - was never meant to be an easy ride. Nor is it a perfect one either. 6/10 for the anime and the manga was a 5/10; but its flaws were not that of misrepresenting what it wanted to say.
That's certainly an example of what pretentious can entail. But it also means when the effort involved to explain something is inadequate to demonstrate proper justice to whatever its standing for. Take, for instance, trying to make a puppet show out of Schindler's List's story. And in Kuzu's case, having characters act upon impulse only for them to react impulsively without any real consequence interfere with their lives is classic soap opera writing.
I have seen Marmalade Boy. It's one of my favorites. And it is very much a soap opera. However, because it never tries to be anything more than a soap opera, it gets more credit for telling the stories it does without biting off more than it can chew.
Typically, the true skill of any storyteller isn't about having displaying your content in the name of realism, it's about going out of your way to demonstrate legitimacy behind the circumstances. You argue that the emotional rollercoaster nature of Kuzu lends it an excitement to material that would otherwise feel mundane, but such sensationalizing only serves to show the lapses of how improbable such kids would react in high school. And this is a common issue with defenders of the show: Just because Kuzu does show some understandable train of thought for its characters, doesn't mean they capitalize on it. For every misfortunate choice a character makes, it's sidelined by simply presenting another, bigger one on top of that when, in all fairness, wouldn't happen so fluently and frequently. It's like the author remembered all of the bad choices her peers made back in high school and then weaved them together with as few as characters as possible and called it real because all of them can, technically, happen in such a time and place. As for EVA, for anything you can say about Shinji, his actions are made legit by all of the factors the show bothers to give us. We can be mad at him, we can pity him, we can argue reasons why one decision he should have made would be better for him, but we can't deny that his rationale is well-represented based on where he comes from. That is honest characterization. Despite everything, I am happy that Kuzu exists if just to remind people that such themes surrounding teen life can be taken seriously instead of being reduced to easily digestible genre convention like your typical romcom. But that's it. If only it were so easy to judge the strength of a drama by evaluating its execution in a vacuum, but that would be a disservice to analysis. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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No, I will not speak for myself because I recall plenty of people also hating the visuals when the show aired. Making the art look uncomfortable takes away the element of surprise Flowers of Evil could have had. Part of Kuzu's appeal to me is that it looks so deceiving (which is a main theme here) The characters and backgrounds looked like they've stepped off the pages of a shoujo manga; all fluffy and innocent. Then you get pulled in and realize this couldn't be further from the truth. Take Akane. She looks like the nicest, sweetest teacher ever and her seiyuu plays her that way. I never would have guessed she's as diabolical and slutty as she is. That was a shocking reveal. The heroine of Aku/Hana looks like Evil Wearing a Schoolgirl Uniform....and it turns out that she is. .............................................. To quote Gilbert Godfried..............."I think I'm gonna have a heartache and die from that surprise. "
Kuzu doesn't try to be anything else than a character study on how troubled teenagers (and adults) deal with their sexual desires either. When has it ever bitten off more than it can chew? |
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Lifesongsoa
Posts: 34 |
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@Otaking09
I think the characters of Scum's Wish are well represented in a compelling way. Additionally, I think the story knows what it is doing and doesn't try to do more than it should where it could easily make that mistake. I don't feel like it's lacking for explanation. The characters and their motivations have all made enough sense to me on a weekly basis to stay a few episodes ahead of the game. I haven't read the manga. I'm only able to do that because the storytelling queues and character nuances I need are included in the anime. The storytelling is fantastic imo. I'm trying to explain my perspective on why I feel that way. I don't expect anyone to necessarily change their opinion because of it, but maybe to realize there is a good deal more to get out of Scum's Wish than some people are giving it credit for? What you get out of it doesn't necessarily = what it had to offer. I'm trying to say that in as nice a way as I can. I can talk specific character details, but can't defend them directly without an argument for why they are bad. I don't think they are bad. I agree about realism. It's not the ultimate goal of storytelling to be sure. I think you misunderstood why I brought it up. I mean to point out that understanding visual queues and what they are reflecting can create a very different experience for different people. Storytelling that is pushed along by perspective is going to lose people who write the characters off as something that can't be understood because it isn't there, or commonly in this case by calling it unrealistic. Scum's Wish has given me every character detail I've hoped to see yet plus some. I have not had the experience you are writing about with this story. I don't think I can be any clearer than that. I'm trying to explain that the dissonance of bad characters acting poorly was never there for me. I read about it online, but I'm confused by the confusion. I have every piece I need to piece this story, its characters and their actions together. I've successfully guessed most of their actions before they've happened based off the storytelling queues the anime has given me so I'm not willing to consider the queues as not there. I was able to get a compelling and consistent view on these characters from what I saw in the anime so of course I won't accept an argument that it wasn't there. On the topic of Shinji, I don't know what to say to get my point across. I don't really understand Shinji. My feelings toward him are more or less neutral and my understanding of him involves forcing myself to accept that he has emotional issues I don't understand and don't suffer from. I feel like I'd need to get a PHD in psychology before I'd feel I really understand him. I don't think Shinji is well represented. I've always felt like NGE as a whole is highly pretentious. When I first got into anime I'd have used most of the same criticisms you are using for Scum's Wish on NGE. Honestly, I still lean toward saying they are more justified. The only character who really made any sense to me was Rei for being so detached about it all. I've read countless times about how Rei's characterization is terrible. /shrug Some characters resonate with certain people better than others. Often times that has more to do with who we are than it does with the storytelling. I think Scum's Wish is proving to be a fantastic example of it. |
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Otaking09
Posts: 637 |
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That's more so you forcing your tastes on what good tween stories should incorporate to be entertaining, but it's also a superficial observation. Flowers of Evil never felt the need to throw curveball twists to the viewer because we naturally wanting to learn more of why characters behaved as they did or what they chose to take away from it was more important than making sure viewers were constantly guessing what was going to happen every week. As for Akane and the claim that "people are never what they seem on the outside" is such a tired and obvious ploy for intrigue that any seasoned person would recognize needs more to layer upon it. And, as I've said before, Akane's own mentality is chalked up to being nothing more than a mustache-twirling Saturday morning cartoon character... that just so happens to have sex. What you describe as quality is typical, yet effective, melodrama tactics.
Because I ultimately don't care too much about Kuzu and know that any interest it will garner in the future will be limited to those seeking it out as a curio, I'm just going to give an easy example in Moka. Simply put, what was initially just a throwaway excuse for misplaced levity early on in the show, is suddenly spoiler[- and for a hilariously brief single episode -] a stereotype to be analyzed upon. Not only is this treatment indicative on how abridged the whole story is treating its various themes and subject, it also demonstrates how inorganically it bothers to build up characters over time. Again, this is typical melodrama thriller stuff, not even close to properly looking in on damaged characters. Picture this cheesy example: In Naruto, Tenten was this throwaway character for 150 episodes but then, just for 1 episode, we learn she was actually hiding deep-rooted hatred to Lee's family because they silenced her parents over some espionage secret! You can't suddenly put a character that was utilized for throwaway humor near-constantly into a dramatic limelight so many episodes apart without care for transition and happily dub it "art". I don't care what you want to call it, it's an insult to my intelligence. Now I'm done, I've said my piece. The show/manga is over, I'm looking forward to the next drama that actually respects proper, invested storytelling. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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You do realize that Kuzu is *not* a "tween story"; it is specifically targeted at adults?
But that's just your personal opinion of her.
First, there's is nothing "simple" at the way you express yourself. You are way too wordy; what the hell does "inorganically" even mean in terms of writing? Could you please be less confusing with your terms? I have no idea what the hell you are talking about half the time. I don't study " The Media Critic's Dictionary" Secondly, Moca was never a throwaway gag character. She has always had a part in the story; it was just smaller than everyone else's (besides Atsuya's maybe) She has issues like everyone else; making herself the false stereotype to improve her love life and her own self-worth. This is no different from Hanabi and Akane seeking other guys to improve their own self-worth. It's just through a different method.
Like I said, Moca was never intended as such.
Kuzu does respect proper invested storytelling and you are simply misinterpreting it. |
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relyat08
 Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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I actually didn't start this till the day after this article was posted, so sorry for being a tad late, but I didn't want to read this then and spoil myself. Anyway, holy f*ck this is the most emotionally exhausting thing I've ever watched. Even more so than Flowers of Evil, of which I'm a huge fan. I definitely knew people like this in school, so calling it unrealistic is pretty absurd to me, and every other complaint people in this thread seem to have rings totally hollow to me. I adore Hanabi and Mugi and Sanae. I feel literal pain in my chest every time one of them makes a mistake because they feel so real, human, and genuinely good, that it is just very hard to watch them continually screw up. I f*cking love this show. And Hanabi is so weirdly relatable to me. Maybe not the kind of show that people would associate with "waifus" but Hanabi is easily one of my favorite female characters of all time currently. And this show is one of the best things I've seen in a very long time. Of course, how it ends will make a pretty big difference on whether or not I truly end up loving it, but so far, it's been a brutal, exhausting, and amazing experience for me.
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zrnzle500
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^Yeah I doesn't seem to be a series where it would be wise to marathon. Too much "Oh no, honey, don't do that" in a row. Though at least in one relationship, the individuals seem to be proceeding towards health, which I hope will be the case for most of the characters by the end.
As to waifus, Hanabi would be well within my strike zone and I do find her relatable, but I've never really considered her in such a lens. I think the content does make thinking in such a manner about the characters just seem wrong, what with them screwing up sexually and romantically frequently, and perhaps humanizing them to the point where dehumanizing them becomes undesirable. |
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relyat08
Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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^Yeah, I was warned not to marathon it before I started, but once I got going, it was impossible to stop. Yet at the same time, now I'm kind of dreading watching the conclusion because I get the feeling that the ending is probably going to hurt me.
And yeah, waifu is definitely not the right word to describe Hanabi, but she is beautiful and painfully relatable in some ways, which make me really adore and appreciate her. |
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Cam0
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For me this is exactly the kind of show that I'd prefer to marathon. I want to feed off of that momentum and maximize those shuddery feels. Then feel extremely empty after watching all of it in like 2 days and think what is the meaning of life without Scum's Wish. Dammit, I should have waited for the show to finish before picking it up. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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Considering I read the manga in about one day (because I could not stop), marathoning the anime probably wouldn't affect me that much.
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TasteyCookie
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Wrong; It's published in Big Gangan which publishes such stories as Akame Ga Kill! Zero, Goblin Slayer, SNAFU, Saekano, Love Calendar, Servant x Service, etc. I can go on with more but all of said Manga are written and marketed for older teens and young adults; 16-20 years of age. "Seinen" does not mean it is marketed nor intended to be media consumed strictly by adults.
If you can't comprehend a presented argument, you have no place in discrediting it. That's the problem with fans of emotional media who refute any logical explanation with personal feelings. While there is nothing wrong with expressing how you feel towards a story, telling someone else there explanation is too wordy, confusing, or even wrong only reinforces their argument based on media critique.
There is no proper way to interpret something. Saying so is highly pretentious, like the writing you are trying to defend. Last edited by TasteyCookie on Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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relyat08
Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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^saying writing is highly pretentious is also kind of pretentious. Pretentious is a crappy word that really just means that you didn't get something out of something that other people did. Other people with different experiences might not respond the same way as you.
Well that's exactly what I did. And when I finished, I was miserable. That empty feeling was definitely there. I almost called out of work, to be honest, because I just needed time to think. All in all, it was worth it though. In some ways, I guess I can be grateful to Amazon for locking this away from me for so long, otherwise I definitely wouldn't have been able to prevent myself from watching it earlier in the season. |
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Mr. sickVisionz
 Posts: 2173 |
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Just started this Yesterday and just finished up episode 10.
Obviously enjoying the series a lot. It reminds me of White Album (Series 1) and School Days a lot when it comes to anime (a little of Ichigo 100% too) and shows like Skins (UK) for live-action. I'd put all for of those directly in the same pot of teenagers discovering love, lust, and lust and trying to work it out among all the other stuff going on in their life. Some mention Nana and while they're similar, I'd say they're similar because they both take a semi-grounded and more realistic approach to romance than the usual *omg we had an indirect kiss with a straw* type of anime. The mixed reaction doesn't surprise me. Grow up with one set of experiences and these shows come off as crazy unrealistic and are nothing but stupid people making stupid decisions in an exaggerated manner constantly. With a different set of experiences though, this doesn't seem all that far fetched and the characters are very easy to identify with and it feels more like a show about people being people, warts and all. For me, it strikes a chord.
I get the feeling that this is not the type of show that's going to wrap up everything nicely with a bow. That's kinda what I like about it. There may not be a resolution. These people can just have had a really negative experience with sex and relationships in high school. That could totally be their story. It's not an unheard of one in the real world. That's actually a lot of people's stories. First love and first sex were more of a "learn the hard way" type of thing rather than some magical, healthy, positive thing. There's people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s who never really get this stuff mastered better than characters in this show. Having said that, I think there has been evolution of characters and development. It hasn't always been happy development and some of it has maybe left them in a "worse" state in terms of what they accept in relationships and what a relationship counselor might say is unacceptable in a relationship, but they've evolved and developed nonetheless.
A song made way before this show, but I feel it really sums up most of the characters in this show. |
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