Forum - View topicKatanagatari (TV).
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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I'm no fan of tragedy, but I think that this series did things very well. I think that the death of spoiler[Togame was necessary to the plot, and necessary to the Princesses' objectives, because without it, Shichika wouldn't have been unleashed like that. He needed to fully become the final deviant blade, a weapon, rather than a human that was also a weapon. I think it was great seeing him in his purest form, doing what he'd been hinting at since the first episode, destroying the weapons rather than tiptoeing around that potential. Kyotouryu was designed as a blade-breaking art, and he was finally using it as it was intended to be used.
I also don't believe Togame's "deathbed confession," I think that she may have intended to kill him in the beginning, but that she never would have by the end. She just wanted to free him from her, to avoid the sort of revenge crusade that he ended up launching if she could.] The hardest element to reconcile is spoiler[not only allowing the princess to live, but to also allow her to follow him. I think it makes a certain sense though. They are each all that the other has left of their previous life, a reminder of those that they lost, and I think that the Princess was honest about being frienemies with Togame and wishing things could have gone differently. Once the deviant blades had been destroyed, the path of her life was left completely open, and she chose to stay close to her friend and help Shichika as best she could.] My favorite bit though was his final battle cry, enshrining it forever in history. |
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tarheel91
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In short, no. You can't take the words that make up the general parts of a tragedy and pick definitions for them that apply. The things you picked out to argue that this is a tragedy are just things that make it a story with a sad ending. A tragedy is very different (and produces catharsis, this does not). Katangatari lacks several things that a tragedy must have: 1) A tragic hero. Shichika is a great fighter, but a tragic hero he is not. Tragic heroes are supposed to be larger than life. Their social status is above that of a normal individual, their qualities are largely admirable, etc. They are that guy/girl we all want to be. King Leer is a noble king. Oedipus is the adopted son of a King and the biological son of another king who leaves his home in an attempt to not harm his parents. Shichika lives in a humble hut on an abandoned island with his sister. He is not noble in any form of the word, and is at most a relatively clean slate aside from his ability to fight. He does not fit Aristotle's definition of a tragic hero in any way, shape, or form. 2) A tragic flaw (hamartia). A tragic hero, as mentioned, is largely admirable in nature. By and large they are good people. However, it is a single flaw or mistake that is their downfall. These flaw's are major, too, and are usually related to an essential part of their personality. It is King Leer's love for his daughter that causes him to disinherit her. Oedipus' familial relationship defines him in many ways, and it is his lack of knowledge in this regard that brings his ruin. Shichika is not a generally GOOD person to begin with (pretty neutral in my opinion). He makes many mistakes, and develops and grows throughout the story. There is no real growth for a tragic hero in a tragedy. They are already "larger than life." THAT guy. It is their fate which interests the audience. Shichika's ultimate fate isn't his fault in any regard. spoiler[ He had no earlier chance to finish of Emonzaimon (or however you spell that name); it was no action of his that caused Togame's death.] It wasn't inevitable, either. It was more sudden than anything else. 3) Doom. The inevitability of the events that befall the main character are made clear from the beginning. Both King Leer and Oedipus are warned of their fates. Frequently these warnings are ignored, and the hero continues on. The character of a tragic hero is frequently likened to a water wheel. It starts off at the top, and as they are confronted by their fate they become worse and worse, but upon their realization and acceptance of that fate, and their decision to struggle against in nonetheless, they begin to rise again. Katangatari has no "fate" side to it. spoiler[Kiki's plans do involve Togame's death, but we don't learn this until right AFTER her death, and Kiki's plans are foiled in the end, so that's not a justification either.] A central part of what enables catharsis in a tragedy is the way the character is able to see his doom, and moves forward towards it nonetheless. This never happens in Katangatari. Perhaps the easiest way to explain why Katanagatari is not a tragedy is to compare it to an anime that actually is: Cowboy Bebop. spoiler[Spike is an awesome guy. His fatal flaw is his past ties with the gang. Ultimately he can not escape his past no matter what he does. We see him pondering that exact problem constantly (that whole bit with the Indians is central to this). Three episodes from the end, he realizes that he's not coming back from the fight, that he and Vicious will inevitably end each other's lives and continues on anyways (deciding not to run anymore). It is those final episodes where Spike is up against an entire gang in a battle we know he can not win that really makes the show the masterpiece everyone loves. ] P.S. Recognition aka anagnorisis is not simply any realization, it is the realization of one's inevitable fate, the recognition that the hamartia talked about earlier was responsible for the tragic hero's current situation, and there was nothing the hero could do about it. The suffering you mention is more aptly described as a reversal. Oedipus goes from a king to a blind exile. Lear is a blind old man who dies as a result of his own actions (grief from his daughter's death). |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Finally finished the last two episodes.
I'm going to be smart - yes, lazy, but also smart - and just copy-paste what I wrote about Katanagatari in MyAnime. I gave the show a Very Good. "I did give consideration to rating this as Excellent, however it has a few problems holding it back. Katanagatari's rather unique release structure was both a good thing and a bad thing. Bad in that it was hard to drum up much enthusiasm between episodes with such a long wait between them. Episode twelve being the obvious exception, what with episode eleven's cliffhanger. That raises another (but related) problem. The first ten episodes were self-contained - one sword, one episode - although latter episodes did frequently mention earlier ones. It felt a bit stilted and formulaic as each story was wrapped up in the allotted timespan, and until the end there was not the drive to watch the next episode to see what happens next. Yes, the staff obviously intended for the structure to be this way, and they did take steps to mitigate the inherent problems with the flow of the show. The aforementioned nods to previous episodes helped, but only looking backwards, not when looking forwards to building anticipation to future episodes. The structure did have its strengths. A whole month between episodes means the production team aren't under quite the same horrible time-pressure that bedevils most Anime series. Yes, it has double-length episodes, but each episode comes out a quarter as often. Therefore twice as much time can be spent on every episode - nay, every minute - of Katanagatari than on a normal TV show. Now you'd think this would mean much better art and animation, and I do have to say that the art was quite striking. Very simple, very basic, but incredibly colourful and vivid. Especially the design and colouration of the eyes. It seems as though every character either had a stock (but very odd) two-tone eye design but with their own colouration pattern, or they had their own personal brand of eye. Backgrounds weren't nearly as vivid, and I noticed at least two, possibly three instances of incredibly poor and exceedingly obvious recycled animated backgrounds, especially in the same scene. Y'ouch. Speaking of the animation, generally it was quite disappointing. This was obviously a low-budget production, which happens. Some of my favourite Anime were made with little more than the smell of an oily rag, metaphorically speaking. But given the time that the animators had twice as long per minute, I expected better than this. I know I know, animators get paid per frame, so increasing the time allotted to them isn't going to automatically translate into better quality, but I was hoping, I really was. The fights are very basic, the action sequences being almost always very short with limited detailed movements. EVERY fight is padded out with dialogue. That is not too surprising, given who wrote the series of Light Novels this show is based on, but the exposition gets tiring in a number of fights. It's just another problem with the show's episodic nature. Sometimes you've got too much to fit into the episode, sometimes not nearly enough This series has plot problems (not all the issues with the plot were holes, although some were). It has A LOT of plot problems. They piss me off but luckily do not detract enough from the show to make it unwatchable. Things depicted don't always correspond to the tech level of the intended time period; I'm not just talking about the blades here, as they are (partially) justified. Sure, there's magic, but the characters were the ones that brought physics into this, not me. (As an aside, I'm amazed that a feudal society would even know of the word "physics"; maybe it was just a mistranslation by the fansubbers.) And it may just be me, but I struggled to put together the actual behind-the-scenes plot, the whole point of the rebellion. But what was REALLY baffling were the show's finale and coda. They did not make sense. At all. Even someone with perfect understanding of the plot would not have understood - let alone forgiven - why the coda played out like it did. Shichika's decision in the finale was bizarre too, which when mixed in with some glaring plot problems did take a bit of impact away from the otherwise fairly exciting finale. I liked Bakemonogatari. Nay, I loved Bakemonogatari. I knew that this show would be talky too. But twenty-five-minute long talky episodes are much easier to swallow than fifty-minute-long talky episodes. And Shichika and Togame struggled to match their counterparts. In fact they fell pretty far off. Also, for all of Katanagatari's uniqueness the general format of the series - a smart yet obnoxious girl paired with a guy akin to a fish out of water, who travel together to collect important artefacts - is actually pretty standard. Not tired, because there is some blending of different story elements, but it doesn't make a statement of "this is fresh". I fully understand and accept that most Anime are like this, which is why I haven't marked the show down for it. But I mention it because the execution is - 99% of the time - more important than premise. Yet by and large Katanagatari didn't try to supersede its not-so-special origins with great execution. It was good, don't get me wrong, but overall I feel it could have done better. That said, there were some notable instances which impressed me, and they spoke of the underlying quality of the show. No matter how dull or outright annoying the show got, there was usually a good reason to keep watching. After all that I've said, this is the message I want to convey: this is a good show whose good points more than exceed its bad points, as numerous, as obvious, and often as grating as they are. In my opinion, the biggest problem the show has is how most of the character development for the two leads is left so late. Overall, besides the unique release structure and the art style which eschews normal sensibilities, Katanagatari is your typical good solid Anime production. I say watch it." Wow, 1009 words on Katanagatari. But a talky show deserves a talky analysis. |
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GeminiDS85
Posts: 391 |
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@tarheel91: I apologize for the delayed response, but end of semester partying took priority.
Of course I can, it is called making an interpretive claim based on contextual evidence that fits the requirements of a definition. Using Freytag’s triangle that encompasses the ideal plot structure of an Aristotelian tragedy, I offered a brief exegesis of tragedy and how it pertains to Katanagatari being labeled a tragedy. However, you obviously disagree with that interpretative claim, but that is always the challenge when using a term that was not intended to be used to describe a medium that did not exist when the concept was designed. If you wanted to argue that Katanagatari cannot fit the definition of a classical tragedy because it is not live theater, I would say that is a valid argument. Conversely, I would argue that a show like Katanagatari is an example of what live theater has evolved into. There are also many other components that need to be argued from the perspective of modern analysis, for example, the chorus being replaced by a narrator, but I will not delve into those now. First, let us examine the analysis you provided of what constitutes a tragic hero.
The translators of Aristotle’s works will often disagree on word choice, leading to varying interpretations of what phrases like “tragic hero” actually mean. The word “hero” carries with it the connotation that the character must exude a high moral fiber, yet while this is often an accurate description, a “hero” does not have to be a beacon of righteousness. The term “hero” often applies to just the central character in the story, sometimes they are even reviled, for example, Macbeth in The Tragedy of Macbeth. So your definition, while not incorrect, is one of many debated interpretations of the original work.
Shichika is a larger than life character, being the seventh head of the legendary and feared Kyotoryuu. He is an iconic figure in this fictional world even with his isolation. Still, the requirements of tragedy only call for the protagonist be renowned, it does not require the protagonist to be of “noble” ancestry or character.
As I mentioned above, the tragic hero is not required to be a "good person". However, I do believe Shichika to be a character of good morals, yet he does make a tragic mistake. His tragic mistake (hamartia) is becoming Togame’s mindless sword, relinquishing his own will. Similar to Macbeth, Shichika is manipulated by a woman with the promise of a greater reward that forever seals his downfall.
While a sense of impending doom appears in many tragedies, it is not a requirement. Actually, I was surprised when I learned this myself, an Aristotelian tragedy does not require a character’s situation to change from good to bad. A happy ending because of a reversal from bad to good is still classified as an Aristotelian tragedy, (The only example of this I’ve read is Eumenides).
The realization Shichika has after Togame’s death is that he has been manipulated from the beginning of his journey. He realizes that his relinquishing of his own will has put him into the situation he now faces, and that relinquishing his will to Togame has destroyed everything in his life.
I can clearly see a reversal from most feared man in the world to a miserable wandering shell of a man. Overall, you’ve made an interesting argument and I can see where you are coming from, but I still think Katanagatari can be classified as a tragedy. But then again, even experts who write literary criticism for a profession argue over what constitutes a tragedy, so I don’t know if we are going to come to an agreement anytime soon. 
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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What if we look at this tragic hero thing from another direction? What about Togame? Shichika is arguably just a tool, even if he was a willing tool.
It's been a while since I've done anything like this, but I'll try based on what's already been outlined here. Tragic Hero: Togame was of noble birth, and had her father's rebellion been successful, would have been future empress. Although instead the rebellion is crushed, she manages to rise through the military as a strategian to the point where she is a highly regarded imperial adviser. She also happens to own the gaudiest mansion in the capitol, and even if we see little of her strategic prowess, she is highly regarded by the other characters in the series for it. Hamartia: Her quest to recover the swords. We are repeatedly told that she is doing this for the good of Japan, and the world, but spoiler[it is this quest and her contest over it with Princess Hitei that lead to her death.] Doom: spoiler[We know from the beginning that she is the daughter of the leader of a rebellion, all the other members of whom were killed, and it is implied that she hasn't been killed because those in power don't realize her true identity. We also learn later that she knows, from her father's final speech, that he expects she must also be killed for history to resume its proper course.] |
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Crisha
Moderator
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Anime Marathon Discussion (Nov. 6th, 2015 - Nov. 15th, 2015)
Spoilers Reminder for Marathon Discussion: Tag all spoilers within your post(s) and record the episode number(s) you're discussing at the top of your post. |
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Crisha
Moderator
Posts: 4290 |
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Episode 1
So, the episode was a lot better than I had hoped for. I knew that the show was going to be a very talky one, having read about it, and that was a bit of a barrier of entry for me. I normally don't care for shows that have too much talking for a majority of the time, though there are exceptions (Tatami Galaxy being one of them, but that one was so engaging largely because you have to focus so hard to know what the characters are saying). I'm prone to letting my mind wander every once in a while, which can cause me to miss out on things if I'm not constantly engaged. Luckily, this show keeps the dialogue engaging enough for me to keep up with it. There were a few times where the talking annoyed me, but for the most part I was interested in what was going on onscreen. NisiOisiN, as I've heard, is a clever, creative writer known for his wordplay. Sadly, not knowing much Japanese, most of it goes over my head. At least NISA's release includes a nice glossary within their book to help me understand it better. So we're introduced to the two mains of the show, self-proclaimed strategemist Togame, and the current master of the Kyoto Ryu, Shichika. Of the two, Togame's the most interesting, given what I know about the end of the series, but Shichika's sudden decision to follow spoiler[and "fall in love with her"] is also a bold and interesting move. I have been spoilered of the ending, so I know what's eventually upcoming, and I'm curious to see what hints are given that leads up to that. The biggest highlights of the show are the gorgeous artwork (which is the entire reason I blind-bought NISA's boxsets) and the amazing soundtrack. Both the opening and ending songs were stunning. I'm happy to note that I'm looking forward to more. |
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One-Eye
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Marathon Ep 1: Zetto Kanna
This was a blind buy for me and its been something that I've been meaning to watch for some time. I had heard a few things about the show and the length of each episode intrigued me. What could they do with 50 minute episodes? Plus, the NISA Premium release just looked pretty as all heck. I haven't read this forum thread so I'm pretty much going into this blind. Visually the first episode was very attractive to me with some nice water color type backgrounds. I had heard some people were critical of the character designs, notably the eyes but those didn't bother me. In fact in a few scenes it seemed like people's eyes turned jewel like which was interesting. The introduction of the characters was also interesting especially the pow-wow since that was revealing about them. In fact a later conversation with a bad guy seems a bit redundant since it was obvious from the pow-wow and prologue some of the characters motivations. Yasuri Shichika is the heir of the Kyoto Ryu art and lives with his sister Nanami on an uninhabited island (well except for them). They are visited by Togame a self-styled "strategemist" for the Shogunate. Shichika describes himself as spoiler[not good at thinking] while his sister Nanami refers to themselves as spoiler[simple hermits]. The meeting is revealing because both brother and sister are a little more than country bumpkins. They both catch on to spoiler[the absurdity of Togame's title strategemist. Its also obvious that Togame desires to be viewed as intelligent and wise. Yet its the simple country siblings with little experience with the outside world that quickly grasp what Togame is about by the end of the episode. It makes one wonder if Togame's ambition and cleverness will be her downfall]. Its no wonder that the spoiler[Ninjas betrayed her]. Not because of her reputed spoiler[endgame] if that is to be trusted, but perhaps in spite of her cleverness it is her spoiler[lack of good judgement]. It makes you wonder who is the one that lacks experience with the world. The second conversation was perhaps unnecessarily long winded and is the only thing that mars this first episode for me. "Tonight's pleasure ends here". Indeed it was pleasurable. |
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Crisha
Moderator
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Episode 2
We're into the 2nd episode now, and I'm already wishing the show would demonstrate more of Togame's craftiness and strategical thinking. At this point I can't tell if her incompetence at most things is a feint to make others underestimate her more or if she's genuinely that poor with good judgment and any genius ideas are just flukes (or if she's somewhere in the middle). She certainly doesn't lack enthusiasm or confidence at least. I just wished it was backed up with more skill. Regardless, the first few minutes were entertaining. I like spoiler[Shichika's new outfit] and the whole spoiler[hair sniffing and face licking] scene was amusing. However, it was followed up by some of the most tedious bullcrap. The conversation that occurred during the first 10 minutes in the desert was dreadful. All the side talk, spoiler[poking jabs at Shichika's character and then figuring out his signature phrase, while poking fun at Togame for her obsession with such things], is the kind of time-filling bull I was worried about encountering while watching this series. It probably serves as a humorous meta-analysis of the genre/tropes involved in the process of creating a story. spoiler["The hero must have a notable personality, such as a guy who talks backwards!" (I'm thankful that guy was quickly taken out of the picture, blah) "And the hero must have a memorable catch phrase!"] But I don't want to read 10 minutes of characters jabbing on about it. That point when a joke feels like it's gone on too long? Well, this scene overshot it and fried a horrible death in the sun in its trajectory to the moon. I was so happy when the plot returned. And the sword wielder that was focused on this episode was more interesting than the last. spoiler[The desertification of Inaba, and Uneri's unwavering commitment to stay, resulting in his own "desertification" - a slow, deteriorating process - is both tragic and beautiful. He recognized the fruitlessness of such an agenda - knowing the desertification couldn't be reversed - but couldn't make a new life somewhere else, choosing instead to slowly waste away as a byproduct of his time in a place that was once a home. His death was a release from the self-imposed prison.] Overall, I really liked Uneri's storyline, but disliked the tediousness that came before. |
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One-Eye
Posts: 2261 |
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Marathon Ep 2: Zanto Namakura
It felt like there was half an hour of wasted exposition in this episode. I'm probably missing quite a bit of the clever language that's lost in the translation. Maybe it would be funnier if I understood the original Japanese, but I wonder if it would be. The whole desert chat felt more like "look how clever I am." Also, some of the translation had me going huh? I think the translators might have been having difficulty expressing somethings. On the other hand, the old swordsman was far more interesting than last episode's opponent. It was like he had spoiler[lost that which he was supposed to protect. The broken empty castle being swallowed up, the barren land, a domain abandoned by its people and the Shogun. That which defends (the swordsman, the castle) is broken and that which is to be defended is gone. All that is left is as the old swordsman states is obligation (and perhaps pride), which is kind of empty and reflects the environment]. There's an irony that he possess a sword that spoiler[can cut thru anything and any foe yet its powerless against the fickleness of fate and ravages of time]. Even the room he's in is significant beyond his stated strategy. spoiler[He has retreated into this sole empty room. All he can defend really is this one small space and there's nothing to defend except his obligation and pride of holding onto the sword]. The old swordsman was the best part and a good one, but hopefully next episode the verbal antics will be more relevant.
As I mentioned in my first post she seems clever (went to find Shichika), ambitious (didn't let setbacks stop her), but seems to lack good judgement (at least in regards to people ex. spoiler[Ninjas, Swordsmen, what she expected Shichika would want,etc]). If its a big con on her part then I will be surprised. |
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Crisha
Moderator
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Episode 3
Your pity strategy was successful, Meisai. Unfortunately, I could do nothing to help you. 
I am so torn with this episode. It is the best one yet and also the most difficult to watch. Meisai is the character that I wish was the main character. She's the one I'd want to see a show about. A story about how she overcame all of her past struggles to become spoiler[the head of a shrine for girls abused by men and her devotion to protect them because she empathized with their situation. A struggle to save both them and herself from their abused pasts. I would want the story to be of her eventually overcoming the poison on her own and removing the swords and their venom from the girls' possession, as she recognized was probably a bad idea. I strongly wanted her to willingly give up the sword to Shichika and Togame, or for her to at least win in the battle with Shichika, even though I knew that wasn't going to happen.] My feelings on this episode's Deviant Blade owner is pretty obvious. I commend NisiOisiN for including characters who you don't necessarily want to see lose (making the hero look like an ass), but I also want to punch him in the face for the punch in the gut that he delivered. And when spoiler[Togame came to the scene after Shichika recently killed Meisai, it almost seemed like she was about to say that he didn't need to kill her, which made me want to cry. She justifies later on that the venom overtook Meisai such that Meisai wouldn't be willing to give up the sword at all, which may be true, but goddamnit did I want Meisai to succeed and overcome the issue on her own.] And Shichika's spoiler[psychotic, childlike, black-and-white worldview and lack of empathy? Creepy.] This episode also addressed another issue that I have with Shichika that will probably become an important point later on: spoiler[his apathy and how he has no personal drive beyond being a tool for someone else. It's hard to root for a guy who can't empathize and doesn't have a drive on his own. Frankly, I don't want to root for him at this point. I just want more Meisai.] Beyond Meisai though, I was pleased to see Togame politicking at the beginning and then doing the main grunt work of observing the swords and coming to a logical spoiler[(if wrong)] conclusion. Hooray for being of use. But all feels go out to Meisai.
I imagine that's just her personality, but I can't help but feel that there's some conning involved to make others, including Shichika, underestimate her. |
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Crisha
Moderator
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Episode 4
Okay, I knew this was coming, but still, what an epic f***ing cock tease. 
Also, holy shit, Nanami. spoiler[Is the entire family creepy? Because brother and sister sure are. She was both hella scary and amazing. I was sad to see the Insect Bros die though, even though the outcome was inevitable. At least she buried them all together.] Anyways, a more light-hearted episode than the previous two despite spoiler[containing more deaths than the previous three episodes combined.] Float like a butterfly Sting like a bee Prey like a mantis |
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 9875 Location: Virginia |
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@willag
I just finished the first four episodes myself. My take so far is that this is the author's send up of the whole Japanese fascination with the katana specifically and the ninja and samurai genre in general. I'm not sure if it could be called a parody, a satire or a deconstruction, but he is definitely making fun of it. Other than the first ninja, I think you are suppose to be sympathetic to the people the hero is killing. Even the insect gang were somewhat sympathetic. The hero has no goals, no drive and no purpose, he just kills people because someone tells him to. That is what samurai do. It seems like the author watched the Ninja Scroll movie and said "these people are crazy" and tried to see how much fun he could make of those tropes without being obvious. Do you know where Float like a butterfly Sting like a bee comes from?? |
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OldCharlieStoletheHandle
 Posts: 1288 Location: Mastic Beach, NY |
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I recall something about this series being based on a series of books written in a certain fashion, one per week or one per month or something like that, as a challenge the author gave himself.
When I was watching this I really enjoyed the final narration of episode 4: Float like a butterfly Sting like a bee Die like an insect |
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One-Eye
Posts: 2261 |
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Marathon Ep 3: Sento Tsurugi
Wow that was some episode. Its interesting. So far no one has given up their Katana's willingly, even when they suspect that it might be better for them to do so. To give up a weapon in one respect is to give up power. It also means for some warriors to give up a type of life, which requires a change of mindset and perhaps that is what is more difficult for some of them. There also seemed to be a warning for Togame about letting go of the past. Its interesting the show has described Togame as someone who had lost her heart, but so far its her who has sympathy and mercy towards others. spoiler[For example, the bandits who Shichika would have killed like flies and now Meisai who she is sympathetic towards]. In contrast, Shichika is just like a sharp steel sword that is merciless. In fact he calls himself spoiler[Togame's sword and is willing to be used like a tool]. If these swords or weapons in general are poisonous then will Shichika infect his master with his venom? It was an interesting episode for many reasons. spoiler[In particular that Togame maybe a little more human beyond her ambition and Shichika maybe a little psychopathic]. I think a little more dimension has been added to the characters, which is good.
I agree that it seems part of her personality. She does seem to play it up especially her helplessness, which Shichika says is nothing to boast about. A con is not out of the question especially if its played for humor like many of her ideas. I wonder if she is going to have to make a choice between her ambitions and Shichika. |
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