Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - Y'all Ready For This
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dandelion_rose
 Posts: 657 Location: Kuala Lumpur |
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Nah, what I meant was that there are plenty of stories in the media that give a mixed message by exploiting a certain topic while seeming to condemn it. The Hunger Games, Battle Royale, Mean Girls, some articles on the Daily Mail, are some of the things I can think of. Sometimes I can overlook it, sometimes not. I chose Gunslinger Girl because it's related to anime and manga and a better example than Battle Royale. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Hypocrisy is not in the eye of beholder. At worse it's a pretense, at best the one who is hypocritical doesn't realize that. I don't have a problem with fantasy wars and violence. People easily disassociate them from real tragedy and boys can have their fun. Hell, I do that as well. But it doesn't generally happen in the same work. I would have no problem with a Monty Python approach, but KnJ is more like: "So there's this girl at the age of 10 that has serious developmental is... ooh, look at her ass!". |
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jymmy
 Posts: 1244 |
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The post above yours contains several examples of series that "give a mixed message by exploiting a certain topic while seeming to condemn it". You know what other series plays elements for fanservice/comedy while having deeper, more disturbing reasons behind it? Neon Genesis Evangelion. spoiler[Asuka and Shinji's kiss] is as hilarious as it is awkward, but it's not until the end of the series when we see spoiler[Asuka's reading as Shinji coldly rejecting her ] that we get quite how messed up the moment was from her perspective. The difference in Kodomo no Jikan is that you think the fanservice/comedy is abhorrent, but then you're not the target audience, are you? EDIT: Scratch that, it is hypocritical. But considering the number of series that are in this respect, I don't think it's a problem and certainly don't think it's enough to invalidate a work's either using or deconstructing an idea. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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I'm not talking about target audiences, I am talking about the work itself. Some people may accept it and like it, but that doesn't mean that it isn't something morally questionable. And it's not just one element of the work, it's the whole premise. If the target audience just accepts it as it is without question... well, let's not go there. In any way we're all hypocrites at some point, because it is natural to act out of self-interest and not some high moral principles. My point is that the "this work explores the issues of these girls" argument doesn't work. There are enough reasons to criticize it. And if its fans take issue with that, they'll just have to deal with it. EDIT: Well, anyway, KnJ feels like the Godwin's Law of anime. I don t expect to convince anyone, so I'll call it a day. I d rather see a topic about the murky waters where exploration and exploitation overlap. |
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jymmy
Posts: 1244 |
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What "argument"? I read Kodomo no Jikan because I'm interested in the characters (not all of whom are lolis, by the way) and what happens to them. There's no argument regarding whether or not it explores the issues of the characters. It does. End of story. Just because you don't think it's possible to reconcile "exploitation" with social commentary doesn't mean everyone else is automatically wrong. Saying it's fundamentally impossible for the series to be read in the way the author intended is ridiculous. You say a series can't use a concept for entertainment value and also criticise it. I say it can. It may be hypocritical, but that doesn't make it invalid. It may for you, but that does not mean that every instance of this happening, whether it be in a series that glorifies action or sexualises children, automatically fails to be a genuine piece of work, because of your own ideals. To be honest, the strongest point you have made has been "there is a significant dichotomy between two two spectra of seriousness in Kodomo no Jikan". I agree, but because I can get past the idea of fanservice being used to appeal to the audience, it does not bother me. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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All of this KnJ talk reminds me of the massive drama surrounding it that happened on TvTropes, which jaded me in regards to it quite a bit.
I'd make a case to drop this so we don't get another clusterf*ck, but we all know that wouldn't happen. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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@jymmy
Don't put words in my mouth. We deal with cognitive dissonance all the time, reconciliation is more than possible. I was criticizing it on terms of common moral values. Enjoy what you will! |
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jymmy
Posts: 1244 |
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Well, there was nothing really before your last post to the effect of "well, works can say one thing and at different times say another. I don't like it, but it's not irrefutably wrong." Neither did you say "my objection with Kodomo no Jikan is about its moral basis", you said that its use of fanservice is repellent and at odds with the idea of it deconstructing the concept of lolicon.
Your next point says that you morally oppose the sexualisation of children in Kodomo no Jikan and admit that hypocrisy is at times unavoidable, which is fine and I agree with it, but then you follow it up by saying "My point is that the "this work explores the issues of these girls" argument doesn't work", which is so inaccurate as to be offensive. tl;dr I didn't read your last post carefully enough, instead focusing on the bit that made no sense and appeared to be supported by your previous statements, which I now understand to be less opinionated than I had mistakenly read them as. The point remains that Kodomo no Jikan cannot be said to not explore issues of lolicon, and I believe this is allowed in what you have said. I apologise for my rudeness in my last post. |
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dandelion_rose
Posts: 657 Location: Kuala Lumpur |
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This thread has gone for so long, but --
I wonder why people use the word 'deconstruction' like they do, and if it means certain things in fandom than it does. When I think of 'deconstruction' I think of Jacques Derrida, and I don't know what Derrida-ish angle is referred to here. (Sorry, I just see this people using the word 'deconstruction' like this pretty often, and it makes me itch ^^; ) |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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It's "subversion". Nothing to do with Derrida. |
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jenthehen
 Posts: 835 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio |
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Thought I'd jump in here as a fellow "fan" of KnJ .. I put fan in quotations, bc the manga has turned into a huge disappointment. While I enjoy a lot about KnJ, it absolutely 100% panders to lolicon fans ... I personally don't see anything inherently WRONG with that, and it is what it is. I used to vehemently defend the franchise, bc I thought it was a really honest and interesting portrayal of the sexual awakening of young girls (I.e. interest in sexuality, curiosity about their bodies, crushes on older figures, etc.). It also had some really interesting plot lines that at least supported why different characters acted the way they did.
HOWEVER, the most recent chapters are heading for disturbing territory ... Not to mention the story has been dragging for at least a couple years, bc the manga-ka is milking it for all it's worth. |
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misticninja123
Posts: 1 |
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Sadly sex sells regardless of who the subject is aimed at...
My opinion if you don't get something then move on, if you also don't like the context of what's being portrayed then don't watch it.. another opinion if they are going to prelude to sex atleast animate it... i'm not a pervert by any means though if a story heads within that direction it's damn right silly not to have it within the context of the storyline.. to be honest I'm not into manga a whole lot due to financial issues though i do own i few fan service animes though I didn't buy them for that reason, to say each person has a different take on why they find an anime or manga appealing to watch or read, there is a wider demographic... I just wish I can finish off 2-4 animes in bialingual fashion, a. princ of tennis, b. sailor moon, c. aoshii enshi, d. escapes me at present... NGE ended a conudrum of the which came 1st the chicken or the egg... the thing I really detest about some animes is when they go around the bush never getting anywhere wihin the storyline a great example of this was ranma 1/2... the problem the dragon ball/z/gt, was over selling the product it was to good for it's own good, nevermind the blatent reruns and so forth.. they should of done bd only for the remaster instead of cooking it to dvd.. i would like to more bd releases of older series especially large episode count series |
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jymmy
Posts: 1244 |
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I'd always thought deconstruction in literature was taking an idea and showing the unspoken assumptions behind it in a more realistic way in order to expose something about the concept, like showing a realistic fourteen-year-old boy's reaction to being forced into a battle he has no chance of winning against a giant monster, or the fact that an alien granting little girls magical powers would probably have vastly different motives or morality driving its choices, or the disturbing circumstances that would lead to a little girl acting sexually precocious in the manner often depicted in lolicon.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234
 Posts: 3820 Location: Louisville, KY |
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jumping back in for the hell of it and because I mental atm. KNJ will or might go down that path however even if they do it will have a time-skip with 4 years later because they would never do that. I really don't think the manga-ka is really milking to much it's just not coming out in a faster pace like it was when it first started.
So only young boys have sexual thoughts and girls are pure little angels with no sexual desires at all?? What kind of world do you live in.. i hate to break the news to you but girls do think about sex and are curious as guys are. Read up on some child psychology books to understand what I am saying. Do I think that it's wrong, sick or disgusting?? It depends on how the material is handled over the series, no one seems to ever have a problem with boys flipping girls skirts or wanting to see an older girl naked no-one really thinks twice >_> |
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jymmy
Posts: 1244 |
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In the manner often depicted in lolicon, I said. There's a realistic part of the series that focuses on stuff like periods, little boys flipping girls' skirts, that sort of stuff, and then there's the part where Rin believes herself to be an adult and tries to seduce an adult, which is the part generally portrayed as more of a fantasy in lolicon.
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