Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - Y'all Ready For This
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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This argument never made much sense to me. "They don't even look like real human beings!". Neither does Jessica Rabbit or most of the DC superhero stable - at least, people in reality don't have bodies like that - but it isn't like they aren't supposed to be humans, or they're not supposed to arouse the person watching the show. They're drawings of humans, however exaggerated. And the whole "it's not real! Totally harmless to have 8 zillion fanservice-laden shows every season!" thing kinda falls apart the minute you look at the sheer number of otaku who publicly renounce "3D" women and talk openly about how they're all stupid bitches who couldn't ever compare to Miyako-chan or whatever. This stuff and the community that surrounds it lets some truly delusional people escape so far into fantasy that they never come back up for air (and no, they aren't all "just trolling"; if you believe that, you're the one being fooled.) Oftentimes it feels like we've created this kind of feedback loop that enables people to literally become the negative stereotypes we all decry. |
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Vantos
 Posts: 102 |
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I never did understand that. Okay, real-life girls don't measure up to fantasy girls, but I thought that was obvious and people generally understood that. |
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smashwagon
Posts: 50 Location: Dunedin, Florida |
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So much wrong with the post... last week you had the ridiculous claim that all newer things are better than all older things because of their technical aspects, and when countered with older things that were very good to great, you just claim that those were classics and mention a mediocre anime. (The truth is that quality is not determined by art style or fluidity of animation but by the integrity of the entire project as a whole, hence why some of the most powerful paintings may be crudely done, and some of the more technically refined paintings are bland, boring and hanging in a hotel somewhere and noone looks at them) Certainly some of the most lovely anime have come out in the past few years but that is no excuse for condemning the past.
Then you make fun of Strike Witches and Queen's Blade when they are some of the best written, best animated, best charactarized fan service shows out there (at least a show like Seikon no Quaser deserves being torn apart much more, as it is terrible) There again as art was my reference, go to an art museum.. much of the work will feature nude (and close to nude) women. Why? because nude women are absolutely beautiful, and expressive, and provide emotional and sexual response. IT is not creepy or trashy to be attracted or interested in such things. There is such an odd dicotomy, in which people feel like the more intelligent they are, the less their bodies matter, until their bodies are simply transport devices for their brains, but bodies do matter. You are able to express yourself thru more than just thought or words, but thru dance, exercise, sex and a myriad of other ways. Bodies are beautiful and great, and a culture that is not as hung up over modesty is better for it. One thing that has always bugged me, is that men walk around shirtless and noone cares at all, but people are shocked when a woman does the same thing. I can't count how many hollywood movies I have seen where a couple is in bed together and we see all the man's chest, but then when it cuts to the woman she pulls the sheets over her chest like she is completely ashamed of being a woman, as if that is something to be embarrased about. The reason people gravitate to anime in the first place is because they like the art and feel an emotional response to it, or because it allows them to indulge fantasies that could never happen fully in the real world, and I don't see any reason to put people down over what they like to entertain themselves with. |
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jenthehen
 Posts: 835 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio |
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I see what you're saying, and I definitely understand the problem of otaku who love 2d GIRLS ONLY. Personally, I don't understand it myself really, but for some reason I just find anime females very sexy/attractive and enjoy fan service and sexy figures. The only explanation I've come up with is that real human women don't actually look THAT much like anime women ... Yes, anime females are supposd to represent humans, but there is a difference. My husband, on the other hand, has very little interest in sexy anime characters, and prefers how real women look. I have no idea what makes the difference in our brains, though. All I know is that anime doesn't make me personally objectify real women (of course not, since I am one) and loli anime doesn't make me a pedophile, so I can't embrace the "harming society" aspect. Who knows, I may just be a rare anomaly. |
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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Saying "anime objectifies women" is like saying "books objectify women". Yeah, you probably can find examples of them being objectified in at least one title. Can't really make a generalized statement, though.
Same thing with sexism. It's funny how feminism can mean different things to different women. Almost as if 'women' is not a collective hivemind but a bunch of individual people with their own values, beliefs, and standards of what is acceptable. I've seen women praise anime because it can actually show women with boobs and not have to hide them, like one of them had to tape her breasts to her chest going up because her school told her "they were too big/distracting/inappropriate" So what's the more sexist option? Hiding boobies like they're a crime or showing boobies as you see fit? Depends who you ask. Trying to make a blanket standard/censorship just ensures some of those people get dragged in the net like a dolphin into a fisherman's boat. It might stop some of the complaining, but it'll cause more complaining in other people. |
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LordByronius
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 861 Location: Philippe for America! He is five. |
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and here we have Exhibit A: a human being with very weird, repressed feelings on sex and the female body due to an unending diet of anime and bad movies. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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They don't measure up to fantasy girls? Sorry, but while anime chicks can be sexy, real-life women are people with their own lives, experiences, motivations, ambitions, and the like. They'll never compare to a fantasy chick, especially in how many of these fantasy chicks are shallow and not complex at all. Granted, there are shallow people in real life as well, but most people like us wouldn't want to date them anyway. |
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Sir Amyas Leigh
 Posts: 91 |
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So people go a little (way) too far. Its not 'turning' you is it? Unless you're out to save the world, one lonely soul at a time, it doesn't really matter, they are them, you are you. Plus I don't think a person who really, really truly believes that a 2D character is greater than reality would be a person who could have a healthy relationship either way, even if they had never seen anime. I think many of the 3D woman-haters have more issues than 'they watch too much anime' but that is just my opinion... Last edited by Sir Amyas Leigh on Fri May 18, 2012 11:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Chagen46
Posts: 4377 |
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Oh man. I don't even know where to begin with this. First of all, don't ever compare artistic nudity with the depraved and just plain debase shit that you see in Queen's Blade. "It's not porn, it's art!" is considered a ridiculous excuse for a reason. While there is nothing wrong with indulging in kinks as long as no one else is harmed, you have to be aware that you're satisfying a base and primitive desire of your psyche. I don't know why people like you try to justify your watching of near-porn/porn as "art". There's no need. It makes you sound like you had grown up in a highly repressed christian environment or something similar and now you have to "justify" your consumption of porn because you were raised in a home that demonized sex. There's nothing wrong with sexual desire, dammit. It's a natural and crude part of humans. |
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Vantos
Posts: 102 |
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You misunderstand me. I meant that fantasy girls and their situations are often drawn and written in an idealized manner, with few of the flaws of real people. However, they have one fatal flaw: they do not and cannot exist. It's like superheroes. Sure, it would be better to have the Justice League handle our law enforcement, but the Justice League's methods and powers aren't real or realistic (things end far too cleanly, and they rarely abuse their power or hurt civilians), so we have to make do with the police we have. Thus, ordinary police and military forces do not measure up to superheroes, but superheroes aren't real, their methods in their shows aren't realistic, and it would be foolish to expect this in real life. I wasn't endorsing the abandonment of real-life girls; quite the opposite, in fact. |
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Sir Amyas Leigh
Posts: 91 |
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I think the individuals who 'abandon' the idea of pursuing a real relationship with a person has a lot more on their mind than their favorite anime bishojo... *looks at his Ikkitousen figs* ...Its more like they are using a drug to escape the lonely reality they live in, which I guess is inexcusable but hey, everyone is entitled to be an individual, however sad or happy they make themselves.
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4093 |
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Me, apparently just me. I never even knew the show existed until I bought the DVD of it a few months ago. It was fun and unlike something like Infinite Stratos, it had a premise which actually played itself out to a conclusion. Conclusions, they're kind of lost art now. I don't mean vague ending versus "This is everything that will happen to said character" endings, I mean endings versus "Hey, maybe you will get another twelve episodes. You never know.... Buy our stuff." final episodes. And like Lime, I like Lum too. From that show, you know/don't know the name. Another show that has no use in the modern times, technically doesn't exist on DVD and streaming and has no purpose beyond entertaining. I love your argument, I really do; "If it's not available on DVD or streaming then it must be garbage. Or something I dont like." |
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poonk
 Posts: 1490 Location: In the Library with Philip |
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For me, the incessant inclusion of fanservice* is just a constant reminder that I am not the intended audience for these shows. Even if it has a good story somewhere under it all (as fans often protest), when I'm constantly slapped in the face by these reminders I just can't get into it. And that's okay-- I'm quite fine with just not watching those series. But then the anime industry also should not be surprised when I spend my time & money elsewhere. In my case at least, they've effectively alienated a customer who used to spend quite a bit of money on anime DVDs.
*Before anyone goes off on the usual "but anything can be fanservice to someone" tangent, can we just agree that in the context of this thread at least we're all talking about typically het-male-oriented fanservice? Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I would gladly throw money at anyone who licensed & translated all of JoJo's, even just digitally. If there were ever a reason for me to get an ereader that would be it. |
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GVman
 Posts: 729 |
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Many have, and these console ports normally come with additional CGs and scenes and even additional characters and routes, occasionally.
Fate/stay night has LOADS of plot, especially compared to the sex scenes. And, as has been stated before, no one takes Nasu's sex scenes seriously at all. There may be enough sex in F/SN to take up 30 minutes to a full hour, but the rest of the game can take anywhere to 70-100 hours to read, depending on if you skip through the beginning stuff to get to the route/ending-specific stuff on each read. Not to mention that the PS2 port, Fate/stay night Realta Nua, removed all of the sex and added in voice acting, new CGs, and new scenes. I'd actually recommend sitting down and reading through Fate/stay night at some point. Neither the anime nor the manga do it justice. Fate/zero isn't better than F/SN, it's on-par. |
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kamidai
 Posts: 83 Location: California |
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Don't mind me, I'm just here for the JoJo.
I'm one of "those" fans... the sort who bought the entire viz run, has most of the manga in Japanese, owns both the single DVDs and the box set of the OVA, assorted cels, more toys and other merch than I ever know what to do with to the point that I rotate my figure shelves to be NOTHING BUT JOJOS, a star tattooed on my shoulder, and I'm contemplating buying the arcs that were published in French in that language since I read that better than I do Japanese. God only knows how much money I've thrown into this series, and that's not including the time and money I spend to go to anime conventions dressed as a JoJo character and telling everybody who asks about it that "this series is the best thing in the world and I don't know how I lived without it". Unfortunately, I know VERY VERY WELL how few JoJo fans there are compared to the average person who'd ring me up buying the manga and say "What the hell is this gay &#(#$@ that you're buying? This looks like crap", even if a way higher percentage of JoJo fans are of the same sort as me compared to other manga fanbases I know of. I've even heard a rumor that Viz/Shueisha know that there are scanlations out there if you look hard enough and don't really care because there's hardcore fans like us who are constantly importing merchandise. (I know more than two people with $10k+ JoJo collections who do not live in Japan.) I really doubt that rumor, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were true to an extent. BUT ON THE OFF CHANCE IT'S POSSIBLE, PLEASE LET THERE BE MORE JOJO PUBLISHED IN ENGLISH, I DON'T CARE "WHAT A BEAUTIFUL DUWANG" IT IS I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE MY FAVORITE COMIC IN PRINT IN MY NATIVE LANGUAGE WITHOUT EDITING IT MYSELF OFF DUBIOUS SCRIPTS OR PRINTING OUT SHADY FAN TRANSLATIONS. Yes I know how little I'm getting done by capslocking in a fanservice thread about how much I want to pour EVEN MORE of my disposable income into JoJo products. I don't care. It's still worth a shot. ...as for fanservice..... as a female, what really bothers me isn't outright porny stuff, it's the stuff that just barely skirts the line of being pornography and tries to handwave it off as "teehee look how cheeky we are". like Vampire Bund or something. Even Queen's Blade or High School of the Dead is preferable to me because at least those shows are honest that "let's be real, we're watching this for the tits". Either make a fanservice show or a show with plot. Don't combine them into something that makes my skin crawl. |
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