Forum - View topicKemonozume
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Sat down today and watched up through ep 8, and for whatever reason, I'm really enjoying this show now.
Cloe, something you said earlier about how Kemonozume has a visual style very similar to MG got me thinking-- perhaps that was sort of what got me off on the wrong foot with this show. I guess I was just expecting something more.... "Mindgame-ish". And I think you're right in saying that Kemonozume really has it's own identity. I also bumped into this thread a few days ago and read how you felt the show was really just a heartfelt, mature romance at the core of it, as well as a goofy comedy, and somehow that approach allowed me to sort of open up to what the show was offering. The truth is that the whole monster hunt, swordplay bit never really felt integrated into the rest of the show to me-- it was never what drew me in to it (although that's starting to change now, with eps 7 and 8-- as manipulations of the Kifukken (spelling??) start getting discussed, as well as what it means to "be a monster"). And, you know, it doesn't have that philosophical bent that MG does either, that's true, but it's got a certain similar joie de vivre to it, and the main romantic relationship is a joy to watch-- it somehow comes across as very real, despite the "monster" details. Anyways, mostly wanted to say I think the show's a joy to watch right now-- loved the ep about Toshihiko's father, and for once, I somehow really jived with the monkey in ep 6. I thought that acorn bit was an absolute riot, as well as them two burying themselves in the leaves. I don't know what it means, but it felt good watching it. Made me smile, it was so absurd and playful. And whatever anyone else says, that shit going on it the ferris was wrong... but was really right too. lol They really understand what is actually sexy in this show-- I mean, the subtlties in general, they're a turn on. Sex in this show is the most mature, adult representation I've ever seen in anime-- people kiss and it feels real. It's hot, it's troubled, it's full of real passion. People have sex and you can feel the tension. And that tension isn't just about sex being cool and hot and all-- that veracity really adds something to Yuka and Toshihiko's relationship. I feel how much they care for each other, in part because the sex is so real. Oh... and a last little thing-- I love the details that they nail-- like, for instance (why did this stick with me??) the way Toshihiko's mother gently pulls her skirt under herself when she squats to look at something at the grocery store. That detail was so real-- and is the sort of thing you'll almost never find in anime at all. Perceptive, aware little bits like that are scattered all over the show-- it's one of the reasons I love watching it. Much like my feelings on sex, these details, these little awarenesses that they bring into the show-- that minuteae (spelling?) slowly adds up, in the end they sort of give the show a texture and a sense of truthfullness that we as viewers recognize and respond to, despite those details and moments being so inconsequential when viewed individually. Those details help you buy into the relationships and emotions that are being shown, despite the fact that the details of the plot are absurd. --- I wonder now, thinking-- is this part of what is so wonderful about really good animation?? Namely, that these details don't always strike me in live action movies, but when it's animated, I become aware that someone else recognized these details and chose to include them, and simultaneously chose not to include a great many other things, and that viewing sensibility makes me more aware and appreciative of those details I get to see.--- Perhaps that's part of what I love about this show-- I feel things while watching it that I somehow think I shouldn't, because what's going on is so absurd. And yet the emotions are shown in such a real way, with this amazing adherence to the real details of life, that I end up relating to it anways, despite the incongruity it presents against the bizarre background of "events" and narrative. And yeah, the monkey is cool too. 
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Cloe
Moderator
 Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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Wow, thanks for your thoughts, Steve! I've seen up to episode 8 as well (I'm just going to wait for the fansubs now, since it looks like the show is actually going to be subbed the entire way through!) and even though I feel I may have spoken a little too soon about the core of the show revolving around romance and comedy earlier--episode 8 was extremely heavy-handed--I'm enjoying the new richness of the layered storyline.
I'm really glad they got Osamu Kobayashi (ParaKiss, Beck) to animate--all by himself--and direct episode 7, which had the most graphic sex elements so far in the series. His work has an inherent sexiness to it, and it's obvious he's great at displaying real passion in his drawings. Yuasa has a knack for sniffing out talented artists to collaborate with and then providing them with the best possible task for their own artistic strength. Like you said, despite the quite explicit depictions of sex--masturbation, Yuka's drunken stupor, and Rie forcing herself onto Toshihiko--Kemonozume somehow managed to avoid the pitfall of anime fanservice. Which is baffling, considering the size of Rie's chest. You used the word "tension"--that's an excellent way to describe this episode. It almost seemed tangible, you know? Toshihiko, Yuka, and Rie were all extremely sexually frustrated, each in his/her own way, which created this huge carnal tension and led to the big mistake. I love how the ferris wheel scene--with Rie, not Yuka--didn't feel like a plot device (although it's certainly pivotal to the story and the sequences of the following episode) but like a result of pent-up emotion and frustration. I know plenty of people who have made similar mistakes under extremely similar circumstances. But, you know... minus the monster thing. But because it's based on real people and their shortcomings, the sex feels real too. That reminds me, I read on another forum somewhere that someone couldn't understand Toshihiko and Yuka's need to make love--to the point where she has to be handcuffed to the bed in order to Toshihiko to escape injury. To me, it's a natural part of a relationship: you fall in love and of course you want to experience all of your partner, both in mind and body. This need is magnified for Yuka and Toshihiko because of her body. It's like... if she allows her status as Shokujinki to come between her and Toshihiko's lovemaking, then she's forced to admit she's not human after all, which would be devastating to her.
That's my greatest joy in watching animation, and one of the reasons I'm drawn to it so much as a medium. Because it makes you aware of how people act and move in real life, things you probably don't even normally notice (like the example you gave of Yuka's mother fixing her skirt to squat down). When I talk about how much Kemonozume has to offer visually, I don't necessarily mean the colors and character designs and backgrounds (although those are certainly well done), but exactly what you're referring to: the character acting. One of the shots I absolutely adore is Yuka walking around in the drug store (ep 7) and spotting the pregnancy test. There's not even an insert shot of the test sitting on the shelf--you just see Yuka walking about and mumbling to herself, and then suddenly she stops and looks concerned about something. In the next shot she's already thrown the pregnancy test into her basket. And I LOVED the intro to ep. 8, which had one of those Mind Game-esque rapid flashbacks of a boy and girl in high school falling in love. So much is explained in less than a second! It really is a treat to see such powerful emotion come across through seemingly throw-away actions. I'm also beginning to appreciate the main story now, with all these really bizarre new twists--how many Shokujinki ARE there in the Kifuuken, exactly? And Kazuma, who I initially didn't really care for too much, is beginning to hold his own as a layered character. He's doing what he thinks is best for Kifuuken and is obviously suspicious of Ooba, frustrated with the injuries of his men and their disrespect for him, and also dealing with the awakening of the Shokujinki inside his own body. And it also seems the Kifuuken is more corrupt than it was initially made out to be--what's this about drug experimentation and collecting the limbs of Shokujinki? In episode eight, it seemed to me that the Shokujinki were much more humanely portrayed than the actual humans, in spite of their actions against Toshihiko. It's going to be quite a task, bringing all this information together in just 5 episodes, but I have faith in Yuasa's storytelling abilities. Now we just need more monkey! |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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I agree that the Kifuuken are really starting to become interesting in these later eps, as the machinations and hidden agendas come out-- although earlier it just felt like a vehicle to move the plot, or a structure on which to hang the far more essential romance.
Also, what was up with the animation at the end of ep 7?? Very rough, very simple, and (what seemed to me) a very low budget. When things started off in the ferris wheel, all seemed normal to me, but it slowly seemd to devolve into talking heads that barely moved. I tried to think of some good "reason" for it, but it just seemed like a money saving ep in many ways. Oh, and I rewatched the first 3 eps yesterday-- and although I enjoyed them much more the second time through, much more, still, I thought the first two eps were very dense with allusions that only make sense after you've watched the first 4 or 5 eps. A lot of stuff seemed very random to me the first time I watched it, and I could see why this time-- things like --Toshihiko's need to go the bathroom in the middle of a fight, and the image of his mother he keeps seeing at those moments, --or the image of his mother that flashes on the screen when he meets Yuka, --or the bit about his half-brother's past, and what he and his father are keeping from him (and the arguement they get in to in ep 1), particularly because I couldn't really tell that they were, when I first watched it, and yet they allude to it too-- mostly, the conversation was,at times, a bit confusing to me the first time, --or when Toshihiko's spoiler[father is killed], and you only see a dog sniffing around for just a second (presumably when they find his body?), -- or Ooba's reaction to Yuka when he meets her spoiler[at the funeral], and how strange and over the top it felt, --or the pills that gets dropped into the flesh eater's drink in ep 1 (which seemed very random at the time), --to the beginning of ep 3, where it was unclear to me the first time that there had been a time lapse from the end of the 2nd ep, when we see them in the subway car (which was part of why I was confused about how chatty and calm they were, after having just escaped). You really have to pay attention to the conversation to pick up the details. I mean, I loved the first 2 eps this time, and liked them in some ways the first time, but I still gotta say, they're dense, and hard to get in to, with lots of details that don't make sense when you watch them the first time. The sort of mellow pacing you get in eps 3-8 is, honestly, not as much in those first 2 eps to me-- perhaps the plot was developing too fast for me? Or I needed just a bit more visual explanation? Who knows. Whatever the case, on rewatching 1-3, I loved em, but I still thought the first 2 eps might be just general "difficult" viewing at times. |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Oh, and for others watching this show, I had a few questions I haven't been able to figure out--
What the implication going on in the "framing" scenes at the beginning and ending of ep 4? Is that really spoiler[Yuka ]that is killing Toshihiko's father (or someone made to look like her, etc?)? Also, from ep 4-- is Toshihiko spoiler[adopted? Or is the man who we think is his father his father?] And in ep 7-- at the end, Rie is obviously still there (I think) when spoiler[Toshihiko is captured]-- is that what others saw too? (Particularly because they were all just having the big arguement, where all you're seeing is all the close-ups of their faces.) The implication here seems to be that she's somehow involved with them? Also,this makes me think back to ep 2, when she puts the little electronic device on his collar-- the implication being that someone wanted Toshihiko to be tracked, spoiler[as you find out in ep 6 or 7 when Rie finds them on the "super-secret" computer map.] All this is a bit confusing to me-- perhaps so to other too?? Just looking for some thoughts on how to unravel these little unexplained mysteries/minunderstadings. |
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Kidder
 Posts: 188 Location: Bat country! >.< |
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From the end of ep 8, I reckon spoiler[the Yuka look-alike was Ohba (did you notice his extremely feminine hands?). He obtained the hands many years ago during the raid on the Shokujinki village from Yuka's mother. ]
If I remember correctly from the flash-back episode, spoiler[Toshihiko and Kazuma are half-brothers. Toshihiko's mother died when he was very young, and Kazuma's mother was the Shokujinki that Toshihiko's father married. This is why Kazuma seems to have dormant Shokujinki powers that Ohba is trying to awaken (I think).] On a slightly related note, it's possible that spoiler[Yuka is actually Kazuma's cousin (i.e. his mother's sister's daugther). Which would explain why Ohba was freaked out when he first saw Yuka because of the similarity in her appearance. Don't worry! Yuka and Toshihiko are not blood-related! ] |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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I thought perhaps it was him too, as I also noticed the very feminine hands in ep 8, but that seemed sort of unsubstaniated as of now (which is cool-- I'm still trying to wrap my mind around a few of these details anyways). What I perhaps haven't figured out is the details of performing Kemonozume-- spoiler[do you need both hands/forearms of the flesh eater? Because that is what the #2 guy in ep 4 (Rie's father) does-- he chops off both his arms, and replaces both of them]. How did Ohba get ahold of both arms/one of the arms?? Can you then take them "off" if you want to, later on, after using them? I felt like I saw a very quick shot in ep 1 of Toshihoki's father with a prosthetic arm of sorts, but I wasn't sure, it was so quick. spoiler[Or was one/both of his arms (Yuka's mother's arms) cut off during the battle, and that's what Ohba is using? I understand Ohba might have done the attack on the village, but I thought that Toshihoki's father had already cut off both of her arms?? So I feel like this isn't the way he really got the arm(s).] Confused on this point, in general. I feel like it is almost making sense, but some details just aren't quite adding up yet.
Is that just mere speculation, or was there something you saw in the show that made you think that? I thought they were pointing pretty thouroughly to spoiler[Yuka's mother being Kazuma's mother]. ::chuckle:: It's one of the few "unspoken" points I thought I had figured out. |
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Cloe
Moderator
Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure that spoiler[Yuka and Kazuma are half-siblings]. The timing of it all works out, especially when you consider Yuka's story about her mother at the end of episode three. I'm curious to know more of the circumstances around spoiler[Yuka's mother leaving her for Toshihiko's father]. I mean, I know she was probably tired of being a Shokujinki and wanted to forget all about it and start a new life, but could she leave her little daughter so easily? Concerning Ooba, I thought that maybe spoiler[he murdered Toshihiko's father in order to acquire his Kemono arms--it's obvious they're the same arms Toshihiko's father took from Yuka's mother so long ago]. I think you probably need both spoiler[Shokujinki arms] to perform the Kemonozume. Toshihiko is his father's blood son, from a previous marriage (which I would guess either ended in divorce or an early death). He just lived with relatives until his father brought him back to the Kifuuken dojo. Concerning the animation quality of episode 7--it was entirely key animated by a single person: Osamu Kobayashi, who also served as director for that episode. (That's why I always feel like Rie looks a little ParaKiss when she's coming on to Toshihiko.) I'm not sure why he animated the whole episode on his own--maybe he just wanted to rise to the challenge. But that factor accounts for some of the questionable animation. I mean, 22 minutes is a LOT of work for one person, especially when you're directing at the same time. Episode 12 is also going to be a one-person job: Michio Mihara. I have high hopes for this one, however, as Mihara did most of the animation of episode 4 of Paranoia Agent on his own and is a fine animator. Kobayashi is more talented on the directorial side of things, I think. But Mihara's an animator through and through. Concerning the end of ep. 7, I guess I just kind of assumed that spoiler[Yuka's former lover knocked out both Toshihiko and Rie, and just took Toshihiko back to the Shokujinki hideout]. That's what makes the most sense to me. I'm pretty sure that all of Rie's loyalty lies with the Kifuuken, so she wouldn't ally herself with a Shokujinki. That reminds me--the fake-out spoiler[dismemberment of Toshihiko] was an AMAZING scene! Is this inspired by a real form of psychological torture? At any rate, it was such a powerful, memorable (albeit somewhat disturbing) sequence. |
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adonais
Posts: 302 |
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Watched episode 9 recently; felt a lot more laid back than previous episodes, like shifting gears, but I'm sure this is just the calm before the storm.
The dynamics between Toshihiko and the Shokujinki are evolving into something really interesting, as well as the relationship between Yuka and Toshi - in spite of her being a flesh-eater, their relationship is one of the most realistically protrayals that I have seen in anime spoiler[(this must be first anime I have seen where the sudden tit-fixation on her part is lifted directly out of reality: "you like bigger tits better, don't you..?")  ]
Oh and, love the sign language scene once again: spoiler["Her. Big Belly. You? Me? Who knows."] Before this episode I wasn't sure about the shokujinki spoiler[life span, I thought I hadn't seen any "old" flesh-eaters, and thought maybe that signified something. So much for that theory. ] |
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adonais
Posts: 302 |
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What happened, nobody following this awesome series anymore?
Anyway, it sure isn't getting any softer on the viewers with episodes 10 and 11, a lot of mature kind of material. But what an impression this show makes. Really - not kids stuff. Ooba now officially occupies the no. 1 spot on my list of creepy anime characters. Wait, strike that - the most insanely, dastardly vile, sick and twisted character, ever, period. There are some images from ep 11 that I think will never come off my retina.. 
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Kidder
Posts: 188 Location: Bat country! >.< |
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lol, I'm still following this show almost religiously. The humor is extremely random at times spoiler[like in ep 10 when Toshihiko fights Ooba and gets hit so hard he spins and flies into a field of flowers... for some reason I found it extremely comical] Some interesting things were revealed in eps 10 and 11. spoiler[Is Ooba just a mad megalomaniac? or is there an even deeper plot?] [Completely OT] Is anyone using Firefox 2.0? Have you guys noticed that the words "anime" and "manga" aren't in the Firefox automatic spell-check dictionary? |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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I'm definitely still following the show. I'd been watching the raws, but since I don't speak Japanese, I wanted to wait until they were subbed, so I could say something relevant.....
Animation-wise, there were some very interesting parts in ep 10, with the live-action sky above the vast field of poppies. The same goes for ep 9, with the live action sea on screen for 10-20 seconds, quite a long static shot, frankly. I thought these a bit odd, but I couldn't decide whether I liked them or not. Are they a money saving device? Or an intentional artistic decision? And does that really matter? One thing that occured to me, particularly while watching the sky and soft clouds float over the field of poppies, is that when you include something like that in an animated setting, you really, really begin to pay attention to the "real" sky, in a way you never would normally. I found that sense of heightened awareness very interesting. I also thought the "walking on the watery sky" sequence in ep 9 was very very beautiful. In some ways, it really reminded me of the similar sequence in ep 2 (??), when they are on the rooftop. I was wondering whether this had some significance, and have been pondering that a bit-- some shift from the urban/man-made to the natural.... ?? Some significance for Toshihiko and Yuka? How they respond to it, versus the edge of the top of the buildng? Just drawing paralells between the two scenes and seeing what it reveals..... As for the plot, I thought they've done a really really good job developing Kazuma, and all in all, during this stretch of the show, he's the most intersesting character to me. I also thought the relationship slowly developing between him and Rie is also very interesting-- faulty, and a little too needy in some way, for both of them, but still very intersesting and realisic. The show is still just as random at times as it was originally, the characters still wonderfully interesting. There's been a bit of a pull away from Toshihiko and Yuka again in eps 10 and 11, with a real focus on Ooba, but I'm sure we'll get back to the main duo in a while. Much like eps 4 and 5, these sort of "pauses" where we focus on other people really fleshes out the entire circumstance, and gives a real feeling of sort of "web" of differing interests intersecting that I appreciate-- it's no longer only aboutToshihiko and Yuka, but also Kazuma, and Rie, and Ooba, and the giant, etc. etc. I'm interested to see how they'll wrap it up. Only two more eps!! |
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Cloe
Moderator
Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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Of course I'm still following! I've had all kinds of internet problems recently that just now got fixed, so I haven't watched through ep. 11 yet. As soon as I do, I'll be sure to post my thoughts.
I can't WAIT for episode 12, the Michio Mihara-animated episode! I hope it's a bit more impressive than the Kobayashi-animated episode 7. |
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adonais
Posts: 302 |
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That pretty much describes how I feel about the entire show! It has some magical way of lifting out things that you don't normally ever notice or think about in an anime. I think it is using the stark contrasts to this effect somehow; between the ultra-violence and the surreal comic relief, what is left in the "normal" category is amplified by comparison. Something similar is going on with the graphical and animation style, like you just described above. It sounds like a paradox, but I feel like I'm "seeing more" in these unpolished and sparsely animated characters, than in the meticulously detailed ones of other animes. Oh well. Glad to hear you guys are still on the case. I'm kind of bad at seeing through the subtle layers and collecting all the hints the first time I watch an anime, so I was kind of hanging back and reading your analyses with enjoyment, waiting for more of the same
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Cloe
Moderator
Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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OK, I just watched through episode 11. WOW, episode 10 was just gorgeous! I think it was the best-looking episode so far. That opening sequence, wow! I need to find out who animated that, because it was so incredibly beautiful and stylistic. I can't stop watching it! I love to see rough pencil (and charcoal, maybe?) drawings that almost resemble fine-art figure drawings in motion. Great, GREAT work.
As usual, I found so many things to like in these episodes I don't even know where to begin. Once again, juxtapositon is used brilliantly in ep. 10, in the scene where Ooba is talking about how the Shokujinki aren't human--less than human--so tearing them apart is no crime, and at the same time Toshihiko thinks about Yuka sleeping after their love-making, one of the deepest and most basic human experiences. Just wonderful. It drives home the point that the most inhumane person in this scene, ironically, is the one spouting all the diatribe about the definition of humanity. Ooba is talking like he knows what keeps a human seperate from a shokujinki, but what, in this scene, does he do to illustrate his humanity? Absolutely nothing. It's Toshihiko and Yuka who appear the most humane. And oh, that Bon-chan, what a sweetheart! I was so happy to see him come back, with the monkey in tow. He's sealed the deal--he's my favorite character in this series. I agree with adonais about the realistic portrayal of Yuka and Toshihiko's relationship. That little squabble they have at the beginning of episode 9 is so incredible; I totally say the same things to my fiance when we fight that Yuka says to Toshihiko: "Just say something that will make me feel better. Tell me you love me! No, say it like you mean it!" Episode 9 had that same charm from episodes 3 and 6 that I really loved--just Yuka and Toshihiko being a natural couple. I still consider that the real meat of this series; if you trimmed away all the fat and whittled the show down to the absolute bare minimum, there, at the center, would be Yuka and Toshihiko. I don't have much to say about external plot at this point; it's being handled brilliantly and it has always been just icing for me, anyway, with the subtle character acting and expressive animation my main points of focus. I will say this: Ooba is one of the most twisted villians I've ever encountered--I'm still not sure what his motivations are, but it presently matters very little; it's fun just to watch his crazed antics. spoiler[Oh my God Rie's arms are IN HIS UNDERWEAR and that is so wrong on so many levels!] Only two episodes are left and while I can't imagine Ooba becoming any more over-the-top than this, somehow I get this weird feeling that he will anyway. I can't wait for the conclusion! |
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adonais
Posts: 302 |
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That's the one....I'm still recovering form that scene...I kept thinking, this can't be happening, he did not just do what I think he did...but sure enough, the pervert was indeed spoiler[wearing Rie's amputated limbs tucked into his briefs like some ornate codpiece to a masquerade.] *shudder* What boggles my mind even more is that some scriptwriter actually came up with the idea in the first place... |
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