Forum - View topicThing X is not meant for you and your Western sensibilities, Gaijin!
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23863 |
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And just to be clear, I don't approve of Sakie's decision not to gently set a student straight, I'm just saying I don't see it as an example of bad writing.
And yes, it is good to have you back. You are an intelligent and thorough poster and somebody like that is always welcome in my books. @ Parse Error - that's how I sort of see it, too. As I said in the other thread, one of the things that really struck me was the social isolation of Sakie. It is no wonder to me that she does not have a strong sense of social propriety. I also think the concept of a succubus who is deliberately "unsexifying" herself to be a brilliant comedic conceit. She is the least sexy succubus you can imagine, but oddly enough, at least for me, that kind of makes her sexy. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18230 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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The problem is that, on occasion, you have been absolutely insistent that something is a harem series when nearly everyone else is insisting that it isn't. (And no, I am NOT saying that applies to Monster Girls.) That's when I have a problem with this line of debate: when people are trying to cast a title as being something that it's not in order to levy criticism.. And I'll still have the argument with you that harem-like and actual harem structures are two entirely different things, but that is straying off thread topic so I won't go into it here. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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Well I'm not perfect so I'm not going to say I am always right when I think something is legitimately categorized as a harem. That's fine if you think I'm wrong on some of those, and I don't mind the debate. As long as you don't say it's me and my "Western sensibilities" I won't be mad 
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18230 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Oh, I do think that cultural expectations/tastes - especially among otaku - are a significant factor that many people don't account for when judging anime. That being said, I'll entirely agree that it is way overused as an excuse to cover for titles that are just flat-out bad. |
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Parse Error
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Probably the best way to explain the difference in opinion is that myself and likely the others who feel similarly are viewing him as having something closer to a big brother, uncle, or father/stepfather role, rather than focusing on the idea of his job as one of their teachers. I know this would seem odd because he hardly knows them, yet the interactions have all been framed in that same sort of private, personal, familial manner instead of a formal professional one. We don't get to see him deal with them in an actual class, at least as far as I can recall, and he's the only adult male we do see them with, so for me his factual occupation just comes across more as a technicality than a reality, which makes him "feel" much more like some close relative who has maybe been living far away for many years than the completely unfamiliar authority figure he would actually be. I see where this could be considered a flaw in execution, but I would strongly disagree with such an assessment. Execution is about successfully carrying something out according to its design, so something that was never intended to tackle a given issue in a serious, realistic manner can't be poorly executed simply because it fails to do so. The way I see it, this is supposed to be a warm, relaxing show about monster girls acting silly and cute, not one about teachers yelling at adolescents and calling parents or police over them behaving like goofy teens. It's nice when the occasional seemingly lighthearted series delves into unexpectedly weighty themes, but it shouldn't be considered a requirement. Also, an adult male receiving a peck on the cheek from or hanging out at a cafe with a female minor are not heinous crimes in and of themselves. For instance, most people would not agree with putting fathers or grandfathers in prison for these things. However, when a teacher in our world does these them, it is legitimately considered an extremely serious problem because our experiences throughout our history have repeatedly demonstrated the need for strict boundaries there, in order to prevent children from being taken advantage of in the same ways that would be criminal for any other adult. Meanwhile, in the imaginary world where these characters exist, on top of being able to be speak all on its own, someone's disembodied head can drink a glass of juice which instead of dribbling out from their open neck, gets peed out by their entirely physically disconnected body several blocks to possibly miles away, and this is possible due to a random, natural genetic mutation. This is clearly not our universe, so it doesn't necessarily share our history and everything that arose from it. For all we all we know, maybe teachers have always been selected from among those who have another type of genetic mutation that causes them to die painfully the moment they so much as have sexual thoughts about someone underage, so nobody in their world has ever developed any reason to be alarmed over some teacher-student interactions that would be considered inappropriate in ours. While it might seem as though it would improve the show and put people's minds at ease if some aspect of the setting like that were to be explained, I have never seen that help at all. It's not any different from the immortal loli type situation, where the "really seven hundred years old" excuse itself is attacked as harshly as what it was supposed to justify. Last edited by Parse Error on Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:00 am; edited 4 times in total |
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steelmirror
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In your original post, I also agree with the examples given. "Japanese culture" is used by some to excuse what is actually just laziness or pandering or pure bad writing. And sometimes, of course, it's also a valid thing to point out when someone doesn't 'get' an anime.
I also have a slightly overlapping but distinct problem with people who trot out the "Japanese culture" or the "it's not for you" defense. If we are discussing a show, and I give a reason why I don't like some aspects of it, it's legitimate to say to me, "in my opinion that's not a problem with the show, it just means that the show is trying to do something that doesn't appeal to you". Sometimes that statement will be right (if I don't like a show because it's too gory, but you enjoy the gore, that's just a difference of opinion) and sometimes it will be wrong (if I point out a plot hole and you tell me that I just need to turn off my brain, well, I'm glad you enjoy it but there's still a plot hole there), but it's at least a reasonable argument to make. Too often though, I'll point out something I don't like in a show (that teacher is behaving sort of questionably with his students) and the response will be "well in Japan that's not considered weird, therefore it's not a problem when Anime X does it, therefore your reasons for not liking this show are invalid and you are incorrect to even bring it up." I'm not saying that happened in the thread that spawned this one, by the way, but this sort of thing has happened to me many times. I get that we have differences in what we like and what we dislike, I really do. I try to be courteous and not tell other people that they are 'wrong' to like something that I don't like, and instead I just explain why I don't like it. So when people tell me that my respectfully offered and carefully explained opinions about what I find enjoyable and what I don't enjoy are wrong, that really roasts my goat. 
Obviously being respectful and saying "oh I interpreted that differently, have you considered A, B, and C" is totally fine, I tend to really enjoy those discussions. But lots of times people skip straight over that to trying to prove my opinion false, which is just no fun for any of us. 
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23863 |
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steelmirror - originally, I was going to rip you for your OBVIOUS and BLATANT Western ethnocentric fascist bias, but I see you are a fellow Little Witch Academia fan, so I'll let it go. The fact that the charge is completely untrue is another reason ... but mainly it's because of LWA.
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Cam0
 Posts: 4890 |
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One thing I've noticed is that Japanese don't seem to make a big deal over icky or offensive material. A video game Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 wasn't sold in the US because of "cultural differences" (the developers were afraid of the backlash). Some content was removed from some Fire Emblem game because it was deemed too offensive for the western market. So I think that the "it's not meant for you" is also used to remind people not to go "too far" with their opinions.
I don't think that a student kissing a teacher on the cheek is appropriate in Japan. However such a scene in fiction is less likely to cause an outrage in Japan that in the west.
The teacher was asking Hikari about romance and sex. I believe his interest was purely academic, but I do think that he was being inconsiderate. The subject obviously made Hikari uncomfortable and the teacher stopped asking once he noticed it. Hikari wanted to get back at the teacher by making him uncomfortable instead. Obviously that failed. The teacher could've scolded Hikari about it, but that's not the kind of guy he is. Tetsuo is a laid-back, easy to approach kind of teacher. His interaction with two male students later that episode reinforce that opinion. Lashing out at Hikari would have hurt her feelings which is not what Tetsuo wants to do. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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I can agree that "otaku" has some elements of subculture in the same way that Star Wars/Star Trek, and similar other subcultures exist. They do have their own expectations and tastes in that regard. What grinds my gears is when people try to apply that to Japanese people as a whole, and then use that ethnic basis to claim that the opinions of non-Japanese are discredited. It has no basis in fact unless they can point to some larger Japanese cultural norm as the source of their claim. (thus the examples I gave about ninjas and Oda Nobunaga). Unfortunately, I think there is also a larger issue where some people in our community sort of fetishize Japanese society as a whole and have these totally unfounded beliefs that the kinds of taboo stuff that goes on in some anime is somehow inherent to Japan. Thus, people watch for example an anime that teases a harem of lolis being oogled and touched by some older male authority figure and then they become absolutely convinced that there must be bundles of lolis like that on every street corner in Japan, just waiting to join such a harem. Then you have to explain to people "no, please understand that this content is also seen as fairly taboo by the vast majority of Japanese people." |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23863 |
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Yeah, it is important to distinguish Japanese otaku from the general Japanese population. This is especially true when discussing "late night" anime which forms the bulk of the titles that get discussed here at ANN. From what I understand, late night anime doesn't draw boffo TV ratings and in the majority of cases those shows don't sell huge numbers of Blu-rays or DVDs either. It's the handful of break-out hits like Yuri!!! on Ice that pay for other titles that don't even come close to it in popularity.
And then even within the (relatively) small group of late night anime otaku, you are going to have differences. There is no such thing as a monolithic bloc of opinion in any community, generally speaking. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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And I think Cam0 just illustrated my point. No, Japanese people are not more "laid back" about activities that would be deemed criminal or close to the line. Indeed, criminal activity is punished MUCH more harshly and swiftly there than in most Western countries. One of the things I remember about my homestay was that my homestay little brother (who was five years old) could walk about anywhere without fear of harm. We went to a mall one time and his mom let him wander around on his own and I was like, aren't you afraid of kidnappers or molesters or something? And she was like, nope. Seriously, conviction rates are ridiculously high in Japan and you can be sentenced to HARD LABOR. A fellow American student who went there after me got caught by his host family with a single joint and was turned in by them . He was tried, convicted and sentenced to prison within a matter of weeks. No, Japanese society is not more permissive of "deviant" behavior.
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Cam0
Posts: 4890 |
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Wait... I did? |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23863 |
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Yes, you'll find that sometimes CK "reads" things that you did not intend. It's that running argument she has in her head. I, however, understood what you were saying. There are not the same kind of sanctions on animated material in Japan as there are in NA. For example, you would never see a Western animated TV series rated as suitable viewing for children or young teens that had any depiction of blood. You aren't allowed to show guns (ironically) being used in shows for younger audiences. You certainly wouldn't be allowed to get away with even the remotest hint of sexualization. Again, I'm not saying the majority of non-otaku Japanese people are down with this, but it is allowed in a way that wouldn't be tolerated in domestically produced animation. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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You keep forgetting the topic of this thread though. The thread is about the application of anime stereotypes and conventions to the general Japanese public as a whole. So if Cam0 is going to comment on Japanese anime having things in it that wouldn't be allowed in say, American animation, then in the context of this topics thread I am going to read into that a broader commentary on the attitudes of the Japanese public in general. This isn't a thread about "does anime have more taboo content than American animation?" If we had that thread the question would be answered in a singe word. This thread is about whether one can claim that ethnic sensibilities of the Japanese people can be used to discredit criticism of anime by non-Japanese. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23863 |
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@ CK, sure, but you also have to read a poster's comments and undertsand them within the context for which they are intended. You might have a laser like focus on what the parameters of this thread are, but, as is often the case, other posters may discuss tangential issues. In this case, I'm guessing that this is the staement of Cam0's that you are zeroing in on:
I think that statement is probably true. Again, before you jump down my throat, we're not saying a general Japanese audience (which likely doesn't watch that kind of show, anyway) is down with it, just that COMPARED TO a general audience reaction in NA, their outrage would likely be more muted. Again, Cam0 is not stating this to "justify" why Westerners should be cool with it, he's just stating something that I believe to be generally true. As a sidebar, I was reminded by that ANN article on the recent CG child pornography case that it wasn't all that long ago that it was legal to sell magazines with uncensored nude photos of children. The reason the photos were uncensored was that the subjects were too young to have pubic hair so therefore, by Japanese legal/cultural standards of the time, the photos were not obscene.
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