Forum - View topicOpinions on fansubs and HK pirate DVDs (ranting thread)
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DKong
 Posts: 152 |
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Ok, I see that a number of new things have been brought up....
My stance on physical media vs just on my HD: If I'm paying for it, I'd rather have it in physical form, cause if my comp crashes and I lose my HD, the eps are down the drain. Though, you could just burn your own DVDs with the eps you bought, thus solving that mess...then again I think they'd whine about that being illegal. Though, paying $2 an ep sounds a LOT better than $20-30 for 4 or 5 eps. Though, I'm also a cheapass, and downloading the anime is much cheaper. But...to bring a real life example in. Right now I have a site with direct downloads for Death Note anime. The subs are great (for the most part), and unless they get shut down I'll most likely NOT pay for the official subs that come out later. I mean, if it's just SLIGHTLY better quality, but I have to pay for it, I don't see the point. As for legalities, I still consider the prices companies charge for their anime DVDs is highway robbery, so I really don't feel any guilt in "stealing" their profits...cause they're making a boatload regardless. |
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omar235
 Posts: 1572 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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Just imagine on what would happen if more and more people agreed with you on that...nothing good I can tell you that....they would probably not make nearly as much and the prices would go up more.  As it has been said already you can find some cheap anime out there if you know where to look, if you are paying $25 to $30 you are not looking in the right places.
My opinions on this are that I don't have a real problem with fansubs since I use them myself. I am more worried about the effects of DVD rips like Zalis. I mean I don't think that fansubs are really hurting the anime buisness, at least I won't believe it til someone proves it does in a significant way. |
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selenta
 Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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No, I think you're missing his point. His point is, fansubs help the industry far more than they hurt it. If you're so inflexible and blinded by morals that you are unable to see the benefits of a system where the only "flaw" in the system is a victimless crime which most likely ends up as a net profit for the people whom the "crime" was being committed against, then you should perhaps review your outlook on the situation. Morals are great, and as anyone here can attest, I'll fight arguments I think are worth being fought, even if I'm not sure I can convince the other person. However, the important thing is to evaluate each of those circumstances and see which ones are worth fighting for, or even if they're really bad in that particular case. In this case, the "crime" is a victimless crime that almost beyond reasonable question adds more sales to the industry than it takes away. I can attest as well that I would never ever have purchased even one of my hundreds of dollars worth of anime (no, I'm not anywhere near some people here in collection size) were I unable to view it through fansubs first. To be quite honest, I don't know anyone personally who would buy much, if any, anime without having seen at least a good portion of it and was sure they would like it. Technically, it is a crime, yes. However, because the "crime" doesn't hurt anyone, and actually benefits the people whom the crime was committed against when a portion of the people who downloaded said show buy it, I don't see much wrong with the situation actually. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Your analogy is fatally flawed. Firstly, the "pickpocket/pursenatcher" in this case is NOT removing anything from the person in question. Unlike with ACTUAL theft, the guy's wallet is still left right in his pocket where he left it, with all the money and credit cards intact. He's lost nothing in the exchange aside from theoretical, semantic money. Secondly, if the guy's watching dozens of anime, and only sees fit to buy some of them, then it was because he was dissatisfied with the other ones. Is it right for him to pay for product he does not enjoy? To borrow your analogy, in both cases he would be returning the wallets, it's just that in the "bad anime wallet", he found nothing of value inside, and thus nothing of value was returned with the wallet.
I couldn't say, but why don't you ask the millions of people that have, and continue to? |
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10円
Posts: 605 |
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I see that you brought just as much evidence to back up your erroneous claim that "tough love helps anime" as he did. None.
I have indeed reviewed by my position and found that your post has only served to strengthen it further. The only thing to consider now is which publishers and distributors I should be alerting to the fact that an ANN moderator is sanctioning piracy in writing and challenging those who strongly disagree. I don't mess around with these sorts of issues. A carefully written letter will arrive in the US mail to several carefully researched names and addresses that will be highly likely to consider the information important enough to read and possibly even take action in response to. It may be a victimless crime in your eyes, but you're speaking for ANN now. Welcome to the ®eal world. |
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omar235
Posts: 1572 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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It is his opinion and he is entitled to it, he isn't making anyone do anything really, he is just voicing his opinions. He is a mod who inforces the rules, talking about fansubs (as long as you don't name any paticular groups) is fine, saying that he doesn't see a problem with it is also fine, so I don't think your "well written letter" will do much.
I don't really care if your strongly against them or not but that doesn't mean you should not even try to look at the benefit of having them. |
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Kalvarius
Posts: 13 |
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I bet that if fansubs were to stop completely that the sales in the US would drop dramatically. I myself watch alot of fansubs, and 80% of the anime i own i have first seen fansubbed.
Think of it this way. Fansubs are made by taking episodes from Japansese TV, then translated into english. Now, do they have a channel in the US that can translate Episodes into english for me? Answer: NO no theft involved there, only a larger fanbase because of the service of fansubs. Next way: We watch TV, Episodes are aired. FREE. Sure we pay for cable, but we also pay for the Internet. Still No lost money. Finally: The anime comes to the US and if i liked the subbed version, I buy the Dubbed version. Sure I watched anime subbed that i didn't like and didn't buy, but why would i want to buy something i dont like. Dubbed anime would not be that popular in the US if people from the US didn't know if the anime was good or not. Fansubs are the only way to see the Anime before it comes out on DVD. You see movies in the theater, you watch tv shows on tv, all before buying the DVDS. I see no fault in fansubbing. Pirating and rips can go to hell tho. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16941 |
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Another flame war in the second biggest flamer topic, next to sub vs. dub. Oh joy upon joys. May I inquire as to why this thread is not locked? From what I've seen before dozens of times this topic and sub vs. dub always turn out bad and neither sides wins nor convinces the other side of their views. As a person with a degree in criminal justice I can say, for those skeptics, yes fan subs are illegal end of story. Now, in the grand scheme of things are the cops and most companies gonna waste their time going after them? The answer is no. There is no way to stop them. You take some away more pop up. It's a waste of resources and money to try and fight it. Instead they focus on the illegal distributors which is a much more serious crime. Personally, I feel if you download and watch a fansub you should damn well buy something otherwise you are stealing. You took an item without consent, even for a good reason, and did nothing to compensate the owner. That's just me. If you say watch title A fan subbed and don't like it but wind up liking title B and buy it then that's alright. You've in some way paid for and supported the anime industry. I do see the value in them as it does help many people figure out which series to buy and which not to. Lots of people buy more because they got to preview a series and found out it was awesome. Adversly, there are just as many who download fansubs and don't bother to do anything besides that because they're cheap sons of donkey's. That hurts the industry if you're one of those "I only download and never pay for anime" people. Those people can go blow and are the real problem. Even company reps are torn on this issue because on one hand it does raise awareness. On the other it creates the possibility for people to get it for free and not pay or buy any of it. Currently, most anime fans are true to the industry and do buy most of the series they watch fansub. That could change though at any time.
Bottom line is they are illegal period. Like it or not it's the truth. The big issue with them is more of a moral issue, and whether or not people think it's wrong to watch them or not. I think they have their uses but I also see the potential for many problems. If you watch them fine, just go out and buy some series so you're not a blatant thief. Last edited by Redbeard 101 on Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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goins007
Posts: 291 |
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I'm not sure what a "good number" is supposed to represent, but it doesn't really matter anyway. Once you have a near-perfect DivX rip of an entire season of the Simpsons and any of the DivX compatible DVD players why on earth would you go pay $30 or more to buy the exact same thing all over again? I'm a serious and longtime fan of the Simpsons, but I never downloaded the Simpson's episodes because I knew I would never drop another penny on them if I had. Instead I've purchased all nine seasons released so far just like any responsible fan would. The same applies to anime. My first full-length movie download was "An Inconvenient Truth," because if there was ever a movie that should be purchased without packaging, this was it. It cost me $15 at Amazon.com, took an hour or so to download, and looked every bit as good as a DVD to my eyes. Eventually you'll probably be able to download most anime as well, but the same people who are complaining about prices and making excuses now will still be complaining about prices and making excuses then.[/quote] Not true, because you think thats what you'd do you assume that it's whatever one else would do. I bought the Firefly DVD's because I downloaded the entire series in high quality and like it enought to buy it. Same with a lot of the other TV shows that I have sitting on my self. It's a fact that people DO spend millions upon millions every year on DVD TV show releases. Look at Family Guy and Futurama. While being on CN certainly helped, most of the credit went to the huge amount of DVD sales that each show had. I just downloaded FMP and watched it. Then guess what I went out and bought. I also have been bying TSR as it's come out because I saw the fan-sub and liked it enough to buy it. People only seem to think that there's 2 sides in this story. The people who pay and don't download, or the people that download and don't pay. Well theres LARGE amount of us that are in the middle camp. We download, if we like it we pay. If it's crap, we pass. |
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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You forgot the the people that like it and enjoy it but don't like it enough to buy it again and rewatch it. Watch 30 series, enjoy 20 of them and maybe buy 1 or 2. |
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10円
Posts: 605 |
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Yes, it's his opinion, but when you take on additional power you also take on additional responsibility. I don't really have anything against ANN, but if you're going to represent them on the forum you should probably think through what you're willing to condone and not just spout off whatever happens to pop into your head. The anime industry is very relaxed compared the business world I know, but that doesn't mean they want people purposefully promoting parasites with pointless platitudes. 
The benefit of having them in the very early stages (over a decade ago) was, at best, a double-edged sword. The benefit of not having them now, especially at this stage of the game (with purchases and profits on the down slope) would be a massive benefit. That doesn't mean I don't want anime available for download, I just want it to be legit. |
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10円
Posts: 605 |
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At first, sure, you're probably right. But, over the long haul most anime fans would probably still remain anime fans and find some other way to watch it, either on TV, through rentals, or by buying what they once scorned.
Like most downloaders, you're intentionally showing us the wrong part of the picture. The fact that you watched 80% of the anime you own before buying it doesn't tell us ANYTHING. How much of the anime you watched for free did you actually end up buying? Waving a bare stick around while your pirate flag is stuffed in your back pocket doesn't fool anyone.
Sure, fine, whatever. Now we have a larger fanbase... of freeloaders. With fans like that, who needs enemies?
You are free to travel to Japan and watch it on TV there You are free to explore the Asian satellite services available in the US You are free to import the Japanese DVD's (at least so far as I'm concerned) You are free to learn the art of patience and watch what's already been released Does a thief who steals on the weekends get to claim that they were only breaking, entering, and stealing because the shop wasn't willing to open until Monday and they just couldn't wait? Please.
Watching a movie in a theater or watching TV doesn't leave you with a perfect copy of the show on removable media to watch again and again without ever paying for it.
I disagree that the thread should be locked, but everything else about your post seemed pretty damn reasonable. It's kind of scary now that I think about it.
Not everyone, just most people. I know plenty of people who rip and download movies. Sure, they buy some stuff that they ripped or downloaded, but most of what they watch never benefits the creators in any way whatsoever. Does that seem right to you?
100% Agreed. |
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Randall Miyashiro
 Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
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I watched the series subtitled on cable. It was paired with Hokuto no Ken if I remember correctly. Granted this was around 15 years ago and my VHS copies are long gone. I just wanted to mention that it actually did see the light in the Western World and was subbed. Although I hate bootlegs I will not blame anyone or criticize them for buying bootlegs of anything that is over 10 years old that isn't licensed. As for myself I had a couple friends rummage through all the used video shops to pick up some discounted Laser Discs once DVDs came into being. I think my Layzner LD box set was around a quarter retail price 36,000 Yen. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Here's exactly what it would mean: Shows that air on TV (mainly on CN) would see only slight drops in their sales relative to the current situation. Shows that never air on TV will not be bought by more than a fraction of the current market. It's MUCH harder to sell an audience on a show without letting them see it first, especially at existing prices. Now, there are alternate ways they could pump up those figures, such as releasing early episodes for free on the Internet, releasing free demo DVDs that contain several episodes of different shows, but those won't nearly make up for the loss of the fansub audience, and will cost the companies significantly more to get out there.
He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's trying to fool anyone. He's merely laying out the facts that pertain to him, which is that he apparently bought a LOt of anime even though he'd already watched the fansubs, something you seem to insist is inconcievable. How much anime he downloads without watching isn't really relevant, as if he HAD bought those anime, he'd likely regret the descision. Did you know that there is an entire thread on this board DEVOTED to people who have somehow managed to pay good money for anime that they later regretted purchasing? How is that right?
The anime industry, apparently. You miss the point, a fan that buys anime is a friend of the industry. A fan that doesn't buy anime is AT WORST, nuetral to the industry, since while the give nothing in, they also take nothing away (ie any revenue lost is only POTENTIAL revenue, to the industry that person might as well not exist). For such a person to be an ENEMY of the industry, they would actually have to REMOVE factual revenue from the industry, such as in the form of stealing physical DVDs from store shelves, or some hypothetical form of terrorist action against the company itself. Merely duplicating their content for one's own use, no matter how you try to gin it up, is not actual theft from the company. The company is NOT "hurt" by that action, it is merely not helped.
You know full well that none of these methods are reasonable alternatives to fansubs, so why even broach them?
Yes, they can. It's not a sound defense in most cases, granted, but he could make that claim if he wanted to. The outcome would depend on how much damage was done entering, and what need the thief had for what he gained. In this case, the target suffers no damage, and has no merchandise removed, so it's really just semantics to charge the "thief" at all. Most judges would give a slap on the wrist for something like that, jurries even less.
Who cares? I don't need a perfect copy of the show on removable media to watch it over and over again. I just watch it once, then I'm done with the show for the concievable future. |
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Kalvarius
Posts: 13 |
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and tht would mean that they wouldnt know about the anime for a while, spend more money, and loose interest. I know i would. Netflix is the only way i know that you can rent an anime. and it gives more money to netflix than to the License.
Ohoni is right. I myself try to buy as many anime series as possible. sure there are somethat i haven't seen and not bought, but only because i cannot afford to. If I had an endless amount of money to spend on anime then i would have bought every series that i have enjoyed through fansubs. Im sure that im not the only one like that. and again my point being is that i would not be in this mind state if I had not seen the anime and only gone on a whim that it was good. In turn i would fufill your selected way and done alot less for the anime industry if i didn't watch fansubs. main point being I just as the last point
i dont see money lost. by watching it they have gone from non-buyers to potential buyers. i only see gain there.
You have just explained to me many ways to watch japanese anime. Each costs money, too much for shows that i may or may not like.
when watching tv, if you are not home to see it, what would you possibly do so that you could see it? possible answer is.......RECORD it. With recordable DVD discs it is now possible to get an episode of your favorite show in excellent quality. hmmmm. and alot of fansubs are not in perfect quality. |
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