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Ohoni
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:24 pm
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Let's take the intro scene from Shippuuden. Naruto is almost in catatonic state - it looks like Sasuke is about to kill him, but he does nothing to stop him. How I interpret this is that Naruto doesn't believe Sasuke can do it, |
Eh, in this case I attribute it to simple shock. He's just too stunned at seeing Sasuke again, and at Sasuke moving so fast and effortlessly that he's stunned into inaction.
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kolibri
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 712
Location: Vancouver
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:30 pm
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Ohoni wrote: | Eh, in this case I attribute it to simple shock. He's just too stunned at seeing Sasuke again, and at Sasuke moving so fast and effortlessly that he's stunned into inaction. |
Initially, a shock. Then anger, disappointment, resentment... By the time Sasuke is "hugging" him sadness, hopelessness. IMHO, obviously.
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Iwatch2muchanime
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1291
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:11 pm
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Although this won't contribute to this conversation much, I wanted Sasuke, the second he did his super fast thing right to Naruto (because Sasuke's arm was in perfect position) to just grab Naruto's head from the back and bring it in for a kiss. That would've been awesome IMO. Shocked Sakura and probably Naruto even more then the initial movement.
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naruto fan 09812
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 499
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:03 am
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Did anyone see the episode when Jaraiya was trying to stop Naruto from chasing after Sasuke after the big fight with Sasuke. The reason why because Jaraiya thinks that the Naruto and Sasuke relationship is mirror images of the Orochimaru and Jaraiya relationship. Naruto is falling into the same trap that Jaraiya fell into,trying to save a friend who is a lost cause.
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Namia_the_Theif_18
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 44
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 am
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naruto fan 09812 wrote: | I do not believe the bolony that Sasuke is Naruto friend he even said during the get back Sasuke arc that Naruto do not know how he feel because he has family and he didn't. So, the relation that Sasuke feel the same way Naruto feel is moot heck even Gaara have more in common with Naruto then Sasuke. Even though Gaara knew his father unlike Naruto. Futhermore,Sasuke would betray Naruto in a second if he has the power to beat Itachi and that not how best friend should treat each other. |
you are sooo right what's your anme? I'm Namia u have reasonable sense not like eveybody else. i like you u actually have the voice of reasoning!!!
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BrothersElric
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 1996
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:14 pm
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naruto fan 09812 wrote: | Did anyone see the episode when Jaraiya was trying to stop Naruto from chasing after Sasuke after the big fight with Sasuke. The reason why because Jaraiya thinks that the Naruto and Sasuke relationship is mirror images of the Orochimaru and Jaraiya relationship. Naruto is falling into the same trap that Jaraiya fell into,trying to save a friend who is a lost cause. |
Except I think there is a slight difference for Sasuke from Orochimaru's case. I think that Orochimaru never had any place in his heart for anyone. That said, it wasn't quite as hard for Orochimaru to leave and never return. With Sasuke, I think he holds his friends close to his heart deep down inside somewhere under that hard outer shell. It's just that his revenge is more important to him than any relationship he has with anyone because of that hard outer shell. So I think there still is a chance that Naruto can succeed where Jaraiya couldn't.
Last edited by BrothersElric on Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Ohoni
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:32 pm
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Quote: | Naruto is falling into the same trap that Jaraiya fell into,trying to save a friend who is a lost cause. |
Yeah, I'm not sure that Sasuke is as lost as Orochimaru was though. I mean, that kid was always evil, have you seen the flashbacks? The dude's a complete sociopath. Sasuke, on the other hand, is more of an anti-hero, he breaks the rules, goes outside the system, but he's working towards an honorable goal (revenge). I mean, he really hasn't even done anything terribly wrong yet, aside from going awol.
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SuperOnizuka
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 421
Location: When I look At the World- New Jersey
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:37 pm
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Ohoni wrote: |
Quote: | Naruto is falling into the same trap that Jaraiya fell into,trying to save a friend who is a lost cause. |
Yeah, I'm not sure that Sasuke is as lost as Orochimaru was though. I mean, that kid was always evil, have you seen the flashbacks? The dude's a complete sociopath. Sasuke, on the other hand, is more of an anti-hero, he breaks the rules, goes outside the system, but he's working towards an honorable goal (revenge). I mean, he really hasn't even done anything terribly wrong yet, aside from going awol. |
I don't see how you can call revenge honorable. He has a goal, but I would never consider his goal of revenge as honorable. I would not go as far to say that he should let Itachi go for his crimes, but to claim that he is doing the honorable thing by gaining revenge? Maybe my sense of honor is different, but killing is killing and there isn't any honor in that.
And it doesn't seem to be that he is doing it for the "honor" of his clan. Rather for the memory he had spending time with Itachi, mainly, and bits of time with his parents. He didn't look like he spent a lot of time with anyone other than his nuclear family. My inference from watching the flashbacks of Sasuke with his brother, he enjoyed spending the time together moreso than with his father who he tried often to impress. But after Itachi took that all away, Sasuke wanted to get back at Itachi.
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Ohoni
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:46 am
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I don't see how you can call revenge honorable. He has a goal, but I would never consider his goal of revenge as honorable. |
Revenge is almost always honorable. If you lack the concept of honor then there's rarely cause for vengence either. Don't confuse honor with virtue though.
Sasuke's trust was betrayed, and he pledged to avenge his family and clan. He is honor-bound to complete that objective.
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SuperOnizuka
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 421
Location: When I look At the World- New Jersey
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:06 am
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Ohoni wrote: |
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I don't see how you can call revenge honorable. He has a goal, but I would never consider his goal of revenge as honorable. |
Revenge is almost always honorable. If you lack the concept of honor then there's rarely cause for vengence either. Don't confuse honor with virtue though.
Sasuke's trust was betrayed, and he pledged to avenge his family and clan. He is honor-bound to complete that objective. |
Thats probably true. But I just don't know if I would resort towards killing to gain vengeance, if my loved ones were massacred. I'd rather let the law enforcement get the culprit and in full extent of the law to deal with that person.
I guess there isn't that much of a law system in Naruto.
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C r i m s o n
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 38
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:03 pm
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Ohoni wrote: | Revenge is almost always honorable. If you lack the concept of honor then there's rarely cause for vengence either. Don't confuse honor with virtue though.
Sasuke's trust was betrayed, and he pledged to avenge his family and clan. He is honor-bound to complete that objective. |
You seem to resort in thinking that revenge is defined honorable. The key word to your first sentence is "almost," as almost it may be, revenge is nowhere to be associated with honor. Moreover, it is clearly stated in the anime that Sasuke is a avenger, which clearly means Sasuke holds a personal grudge against his brother on behalf of the assassination of his clan. So Sasuke feels it is his duty to carry out the death of his brother for his wrong-doing, which is not acknowledge from his peers. It is Sasuke's best interest at heart to see this event; though his judgment is clouded with resentment. Which is inevitably not worth honoring since he chose to abandon those who cared for him with those who wish to use him.
-Crimson
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BrothersElric
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 1996
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:17 pm
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C r i m s o n wrote: |
Ohoni wrote: | Revenge is almost always honorable. If you lack the concept of honor then there's rarely cause for vengence either. Don't confuse honor with virtue though.
Sasuke's trust was betrayed, and he pledged to avenge his family and clan. He is honor-bound to complete that objective. |
You seem to resort in thinking that revenge is defined honorable. The key word to your first sentence is "almost," as almost it may be, revenge is nowhere to be associated with honor. Moreover, it is clearly stated in the anime that Sasuke is a avenger, which clearly means Sasuke holds a personal grudge against his brother on behalf of the assassination of his clan. So Sasuke feels it is his duty to carry out the death of his brother for his wrong-doing, which is not acknowledge from his peers. It is Sasuke's best interest at heart to see this event; though his judgment is clouded with resentment. Which is inevitably not worth honoring since he chose to abandon those who cared for him with those who wish to use him.
-Crimson |
Well his goals are far more honorable than Orochimaru's anyways, and that's all that really matters here. Orochimaru just wants power and to destroy an entire village just because he's upset they didn't make him Hokage, which is more of a HUGE temper tantrum than anything. Sasuke at least wants that same kind of power to kill an evil person that committed a very despicable act, so there's more honor in that, even if it is just for personal gain.
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Iwatch2muchanime
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1291
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:25 pm
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Even if it IS just for personal gain, actually killing Itachi would definately do the rest of the world a little good too.
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kolibri
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 712
Location: Vancouver
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:38 pm
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Does the end justify the means?
Legal systems haven't been discussed that much in Naruto, but I understand that villages deal with their renegades themselves using ANBUs. Therefore, the "right" thing to do is send some ANBUs after Itachi and let them kill him - in practice it's of course not gonna happen. It's perfectly understandable that Sasuke feels it's his duty to do it, and it's certainly "more noble" cause than taking over the world - but the bottom line still is that he's taking the law into his own hands.
That's why revenge is such a delicious topic - the emotional conflict between what is right morally and what is right legally. And how a viewer can easily put themselves into either camp.
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Iwatch2muchanime
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1291
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:41 pm
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He may be becoming a vigilante in terms of a legal system, but thete's almost no way that most ANBU could even do the job.
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