Forum - View topicREVIEW: Puella Magi Madoka Magica Vol. 2 Blu-Ray
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Veers
 Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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Yeah, I think that aspect is definitely there Chagen, (sort of encompassed in my "point B" from previous post, but you detailed it better), especially considering how the conversation had lead up to that particular line.
I think it's a case where the dub line mostly fits the entire conversation, but when isolated, doesn't seem quite as faithful to the original. In the original spoken line, strong vocal emphasis is placed on the word doujou (pity) and that (and Madoka's immediate downplaying of pity being a factor) is where my interpretation comes from (that being, Sayaka is still speaking in the context of the entire conversation and her frustration at spoiler[Madoka's inaction], but the emphasis for that line is on the "pity" aspect). |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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That's the thing about dubs. You can't merely take one line and compare it to the sub. You have to compare whole conversations, as a line which seems unfitting in a dub may fit very well into the whole translated conversation.
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Chagen46
Posts: 4377 |
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Double post, the forum kept giving me an error screen.
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Veers
Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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You're right, but I still think the dub line slightly changes the tone the whole conversation ends on.
Is this anything new or does it make the dub, on its own, bad? Nope. I just don't think this subtitle translation line needed any "help" from the dub getting its message across, so it's not how I would have handled it but I don't think it does any serious harm to the scene; while I'd argue the nuances are important and, in cases like this where they aren't very difficult to include (maybe there's a better word, but what I mean is that this subtitle line doesn't sacrifice readability/English coherence to carry its nuance), should be respected, the main point was that Sayaka was upset spoiler[about Madoka's inaction] and this is equally clear in either rendition. |
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Juno016
 Posts: 2397 |
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I haven't heard the dub yet, but from the original Japanese, Sayaka says, spoiler[「 ただの同情で 人間やめられるわけがないもんね」, which means almost literally, "By means of simple pity, you would have no intention (reason) to give up your humanity, would you."]
Then Madoka replies, spoiler[「同情なんて、そんな・・・」, which is hard to translate, but the "nante" questions the "Doujou/pity," and the "sonna" is an incomplete statement that automatically means something along the lines of, "no way..." or in this case, "I could never..."] But the linguistics of the English dub lines you posted, though I haven't actually heard them yet (I have to put the DVD's in sometime soon...), are kinda ambiguous. That ambiguity can lead to misunderstanding, but it would still work in the context of the original Japanese if you took it a particular way: spoiler[Sayaka's line added "for a friend" to the original Japanese, but that doesn't exactly contradict the Japanese. The Japanese original could have easily said 「友のために」 ("for the sake of a friend"), and it still wouldn't have added very much to the sentence's meaning. And then, Madoka's line, "It's not that I won't, I just..." may imply that she would... but like the Japanese, it could also imply that the whole pitying or not pitying is irrelevant to what Madoka is trying to say. She could have said, "It's not that, I just..." and the "that" would have referred to the same thing, but lost the ambiguity... yet, there would be lip-syncing issues.] As for the spoiler["good and bad" zeroing each other out part... I think that line impedes too much on the original. I mean, it seems somewhat irrelevant since you could equate "good" to "hope" and "bad" to "despair" and it would make sense... but Urobuchi is someone who absolutely hates things being considered "good" or "bad," as he feels they are too subjective, not just to the individual person, but to the world as well. On the other hand, his intent in that line, as he had discussed somewhere before, was to explain one of his own ways of thinking about the world: One person's hope could just as easily be another person's despair, and vice-versa. This relativity is specific to the individual, making it a human construct rather than a wordly "rule." The difference between the good-bad and hope-despair relationships is that "hope" and "despair" can be true at the same time, due to their personal relativity, while "good" and "bad" cannot, due to their assumptive nature of the world in general. On the other hand, it's somewhat like the first set of lines I talked about. It could just be talking about personal relativity, so the lines' vagueness could capture the original intent... but the underlying meanings the words carry are far stronger, and as this is a description of the world Urobuchi created, it should probably have been translated and scripted a little more literal than vague.] But that's just my own personal view on the matter. Again, I am extremely willing to go back and accept the line better if I see it and it makes enough sense to me... but I need to finish my college homework first. Also, I don't know what people are talking about when they refer to the English train scene, so when I watch it, if I remember, I'll comment about it. For the most part, the only thing that scene needed to do was conceptualize Sayaka's spoiler[personal confliction before showing her going crazy.] Urobuchi, Shinbo, and even the original voice actors who were hired for that scene feel that the scene is already out of place in the original, but... Urobuchi actually heard a conversation nearly identical to it on a train, so that's why it was the way it was. I'm also interested in her spoiler[final line.] =P |
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Animerican14
 Posts: 963 Location: Saint Louis, MO |
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You think it really does that much tonally, even though the next line from Sayaka is essentially unchanged?
Hmm... maybe the line in the dub was a bit changed after all.  But then again, Veers, looking at your translation of the scene, it seems that the dub more accurately reflects your subtitles there than the official sub, so...?
All right, all right-- on the rest of your post:
I agree with you, so I think I don't need to really add anything more about the scene, hah. I wonder if there were some egregious line changes I should be more concerned about... EDIT: Gah, I took long in composing this message! To Juno016, whom I too easily sympathize with regarding college stuff:
You know that bit that was said earlier about having to look at the whole conversation instead of a line individually when comparing the dub with the sub? That might apply to the context of this line, which is part of why I only mentioned this line change in passing, saying that a line like this "might present too little of a semantic difference (if really a difference at all) in the context of the episode/show itself to have discussion over." .... And looking at the whole scene yet again, I think it might be more that the words capture the original intent and get at whole personal relativity aspect than anything else. One of Sayaka's dub lines soon after goes roughly something like, spoiler["The good thing is, I saved a few people. The bad thing is, I became angrier and angrier, and my heart filled up with envy and hate."] You can also look at how Kyoko uses "good" and "bad" at around the mid-point of episode 7 to see how she uses the terms. In sum, I think it might be that the dub is getting across what the characters feel as good and bad-- and in the context of what's being talked about, with what Sayaka says up above and with what Kyoko says about her getting her wish granted vs. spoiler[her family dying], it makes sense. Hmm... I guess you'll have to really see the scene to understand it best. I think the only reason that it annoyed me, at least initially, was because... hope and despair sound so much more powerful and specific to me, to me! Hope and Despair are mentioned are talked about in more concrete concepts toward the end of the series, aren't they? Hopefully there'll be less of a shift there in the script adaptation... because (END-OF-SERIES SPOILERS) spoiler[what would Ultimate Madoka be doing in the last episode, if not letting magical girls hold onto their hope while taking on their despair inside herself? Could there be any other one-word substitutions there that might be used, appropriately?] Last edited by Animerican14 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:34 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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If they mess it up then they'll be spoiler[honta baka] |
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Juno016
Posts: 2397 |
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I hate to say this, but you have just shot the pistol of irony, there, bud. XD |
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Animerican14
Posts: 963 Location: Saint Louis, MO |
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^ Don't worry, the subtitles and dub match perfectly there as spoiler["I was stupid... so stupid."]
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Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
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Bah. I blame being at work, which makes it hard to double check things like that. Or you could say it was intentional for the extra irony. |
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Veers
Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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Well, yes, I think depending on how you look at the line changes the nuances of Sayaka's irritation (I think the motivation for anger like this is important to her character)--that being that with how I interpreted the line, spoiler[she's as upset (or more) upset) at the thought of being pitied as she is about Madoka staying on the sidelines, while Chagen's interpretation has Sayaka putting more emphasis on the fact that Madoka isn't getting involved.] As I said, though, it's pretty minor in the grand scheme of the whole scene and I'm not crying foul over it. Also, as noted, lipsync may have been a driver.
Yeah, this time the dub line is more in line with the edits I made to the subtitles (which read as follows): spoiler[Sayaka: If you want to do something for me, try being in my position. Of course you can't. I don't expect you to cast off your humanity out of pity. Madoka: It's not pity... Sayaka: You could do anything, but you chose to do nothing. I'm doing this because you won't. Don't talk to me like you understand, because you don't!]
There are several conversations/lines in episodes 5-12 that I am looking forward to comparing to how I rendered them. This scene, however, was not on that list, haha.
I pretty much agree on this line. I think dumbing it down to spoiler["good" and "bad"] was... a bad decision. Even considering that Sayaka does tend to paint things in black and white I think it's a bad decision. Those two concepts--spoiler[hope and despair]--literally drive the entire show. I'm not sure why they thought it would be good idea to replace those words. Equating the two concepts really undermines the morality questioning that's part of the story's core. Unlike the discussion about Sayaka's lines at the bus stop (including "hopelessly stupid"), this change is definitely not a semantic difference too little to nitpick, IMO. Obviously the AoA team needs to go play Saya no Uta for some, uh, perspective. <__<!;; (btw you should, too, Animerican :D) |
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Animerican14
Posts: 963 Location: Saint Louis, MO |
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@Veers: I'm just curious, have you seen how the dub equated those concepts in-context, yet, by watching the full episodes? In episode 7, during Kyoko's talk with Sayaka, and episode 8, where Sayaka does the equating herself? (That might be the best thing to do, if you or anyone else here haven't already, in order to continue talking in depth about it.) It's not like I'm not somewhat upset/annoyed by the decision, but I'm not too sure if I really feel that strongly about whatever semantic change there might actually be, even being already familiar with Urobuchi's world view. (Yeah, I've played-- well, no, deliberately spoiled for myself the ending(s) and then watched a video playthrough until stopping several scenes before the end-- of Saya no Uta. That was about a year ago. Not too sure if I'll ever really get back to it, though.)
You know something? After talking about how those concepts of spoiler[hope and despair with 'good' and 'bad'] were equated earlier (jeez, do we really have to spoiler-tag the terms?), I developed this concern-- no, practically a fear-- that spoiler[hope and despair] won't be deliberately brought up as concepts in the dub. Now, up to the end of the dubbed episode 8--I can't remember, really-- do we hear about spoiler[hope and despair] explicitly, considering their two(?) instances of omission/substitution in episodes 7 & 8? Because if there's no little 'precedent' for the terms... well, that wouldn't discourage the dub from using the terms, would it? In episodes 9-12, spoiler[hope and despair] are even more explicitly explored as concepts, and more independently from one another, so it'd be more of an out-of-the-way thing to change the terminology, right? Surely this ambiguity-laden morality isn't being purposefully weeded out...?  Goodness, I hope I'm just being irrational about this. I don't want my anticipation of the third volume to be based on whether or not a couple concepts that shouldn't have ever been up for debate make it through to the rest of the dub.
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Veers
Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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As I mentioned, I haven't gotten to finish volume 2 yet (was out of town for work most of last week, was tied up with work about an additional 8 hours over the past 3 evenings, and then last night I had company over
) but you're right that I should to get the complete perspective for this topic, and finishing it was my plan for the evening, so sure we can put that on pause until then.
That said, unless I was really misunderstanding what's going on from what you said, I've got my doubts about whether getting a more complete perspective is going to change my opinion on this, heh, mostly for reasons you mused upon in your second paragraph. |
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luffypirate
 Posts: 3187 |
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Watched this volume last night. OMG this thing is stacked. Aniplex of America never ceases to amaze! I'm really enjoying the English dubbing. Christina Vee has such a fantastic tone to her voice. I fell in love with her work last year as Mio in K-ON! I wish they included another set of stickers instead of two posters. Are any of you guys actually hanging them up or framing them?? I also see that they got the resolution right this time for the silk screen on the DVD. I'm also liking this glossy paper they are using for the booklets as opposed to the Japanese volumes. Bravo!
I'll surely cherish these sets for a long time. Can't wait to revisit these with my friends! |
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Veers
Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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Haha, yeah, first thing I did when I took the shrinwrap off was check the silk screen on the discs. They both get a pass this time!
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