Forum - View topicAnime Localization
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Wyvern
 Posts: 1566 |
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That may be true, but I don't think that lets them off the hook. Fansubs are something every company in the industry has to deal with-it's not like people only fansub series that have been picked up by 4Kids. Yugioh and Shaman King had more name recognition and sold more copies than most releases from other companies, but 4Kids apprentally expected them to sell as well or better than the edited Yugioh and Pokemon discs. That's no reason to cut off a series-when you release the first volume of a series, it's kind of a silent agreement with your customers that you'll release the whole thing so they won't be left holding the bag. Companies with far less money than 4Kids adhere to this agreement, even with series that sold far less than Yugioh and Shaman King. My favorite example is Saint Tail-that show sold something like a grand total of four copies and it reached the point where Tokyopop couldn't afford to dub it anymore, and then it got so bad they couldn't afford to bring out individual volumes at all. But Tokyopop found a way to get the rest of the series into the hands of fans with a box set, not because it would be profitible (in fact, I'm pretty sure they took a loss on it) but because they wanted to do right by the fans who had supported them that far. 4Kids' uncut releases are nowhere NEAR that unsuccessful. There's no excuse here. And for the record, if there ever is an uncut release of One Piece, I'll buy it in a second, even though I've seen the first 160 episodes of the series on fansub. I don't care if it supports 4Kids-it also supports the original creators of one of my favorite shows. |
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La-Le-Lu-Le-Lo
 Posts: 31 |
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Our problem, my Nordic brother or sister, is that as long as our countries don´t choose to localize anime them selves, we don´t really have the right to complain about US releases. Update: If the Companies that released the DVDs and the EU had their way, we wouldn't even be able to buy them. But i do feel your pain, as we don´t really have an alternative. On the other hand. I don´t know about your feeling towards finnish subtitles, but Norwegian subs are terrible, as the translators make no attempt to maintain the characters characteristics in their subs. Hard to explain, but for example, a shy, repressed character will read not different than a macho, outgoing character. Hope the finns do a better job. Edited for spelling and clarity Last edited by La-Le-Lu-Le-Lo on Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ACDragonMaster
 Posts: 405 |
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Though, I recall a certain article posted on this very site indicated that 4Kids recently lost money on their heavily edited properties, and made up for that from uncut DVD sales. Huh, money talks, doesn't it? And you're absolutely right about companies doing right by the fans. No, they DON'T have to be catering all the time, but reputation = money. If a company in the anime industry has a good rep with fans, people are more likely to buy their stuff. If they have a bad rep, then fans will avoid them and spread the word to get others to avoid them as well. And it's just the little things, like finishing releasing a series once you liscence it, and following through on your promises, that make a huge difference in that regard. While I can't totally criticize 4Kids for doing what makes money in the American business world (after all, it's that kind of attitude and effort that keeps our DVDs less than half the price of their Japanese counterparts), when this stuff comes up like them losing money on their edited properties and making it up on uncut DVDs... if they're still refusing to keep making those uncuts, then they're just being stubborn and refusing to learn and adapt. The anime industry now is a far cry from when Pokemon first aired in the US.... |
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Kamon
 Posts: 70 Location: Procrastinating |
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...huh? So let me get this straight. You didn't watch Kodocha for the great story, characters, or comedy...you watched it for a couple songs by some crappy early-90's JPop band? And now you have no incentive to watch this great anime, because said JPop band asked for way too much money to be licensed in the US? No Jukuji no News is a dealbreaker for you? Pff. Your loss, then. 
I think it was more like 6-7 years ago. I remember watching it on KTEH Sunday Science Fiction Night back in about '98 or '99. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15336 |
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Kamon: Music is an important element of the show. Therefore, I feel ripped off paying for a show which has no music. And it's really FUNimation and the greedy Japanese licensor and/or record company's loss, not mine. A lot of people hyped Kodocha over the years based on the non-edited version, so why the hell should I have to settle for a bastardization, and not be able to experience it in its full glory, especially when it's over 100 episodes?
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Hajime06
 Posts: 39 Location: South Carolina |
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So to you a few missing songs constitutes a "bastardization"? None of the characters are different and none of the plot is jeopardized, yet you considered it bastardized? Words alone cannot describe how asanine that is. |
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Yashouzoid
 Posts: 411 |
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GATSU
Posts: 15336 |
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Hajime: Yes, I do. It ruins the mood of the show, and demonstrates a lack of respect for the talent involved in the production. (Something FUNimation is already quite used to, what with their refusal to credit Japanese voice actors...) Presentation is just as important as plot, and paying for a lengthy show I'm only going to enjoy a fraction of as much as someone who saw a fansubbed or imported version is what's really asinine.
Yashou: If that's the case, then it just means more songs are at risk of being bleeped out. Why should I support that? There's a variety of other shoujo titles I can watch instead. |
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Yashouzoid
Posts: 411 |
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But to dismiss an entire series simply because FUNi couldn't acquire the original themes is just being stupid and elitist.
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GATSU
Posts: 15336 |
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Let me explain the situation again. Kodocha is a show about a pre-teen singer. Now why the f*** would I watch it if I can't hear the music? It's like paying for a domestic album of a popular international band, and only getting a few of the songs which make the group appealing, while the rest of the world gets every tune that was available on that cd. It's not stupid and elitist to demand I get exactly what I pay for, instead of getting ripped off. It's common sense.
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Yashouzoid
Posts: 411 |
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They couldn't license the original songs. FUNi couldn't get the songs. If you're going to piss about it to anyone, try the original composers. DON'T boycott FUNi's release simply because some 2nd rate J-Pop band are being dickwads. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15336 |
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It is when the missing songs are in the background, and they have to mute them. And that's assuming that they only cut out 5 songs.
The composers have nothing to do with how a record company or anime distributor jack up prices for a popular single. They're the ones being held hostage by their unfavorable contracts. And if that's the case, why should I support that kind of policy, when it could spread to shows like Macross 7?
Why not? Just because FUNimation doesn't want to get ripped off doesn't mean they should pass the buck onto the consumer. |
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Yashouzoid
Posts: 411 |
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Andromeda
Posts: 119 Location: Florida |
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You're probably not the only one who believe that, but I'd have to disagree with you myself. An English dub increases the number of fans a series will have in the U.S., so wanting a dub for a series isn't an inherently bad thing; it statistically tends to increase the sales and fandom itself, both generally a good thing. And when he speaks of "dub purists" he speaks of people like me (for the most part; Ghost Stories I remain undecided on until I've seen both versions), who like to watch shows in their own language, BUT want an accurate translation. I'd have to say, though, that "accurate translation" is more than just translating the dialogue properly, in a dub it also means the voices suit the personalities and ages of the characters and the acting suits the tone and mood of the show (good example of a fantastic dub: Cowboy Bebop, which managed to pull ALL of the aforementioned things off at once). Also, very few channels in North America are willing to air anime subbed, and those that are, most people don't get (well, unless you have Comcast now. *Kicks Bright House Networks for not carrying TAN yet* TAN's started showing subs too, I think. But then, that's a 24/7 anime/Japanese stuff channel, not a more general channel or animation channel like Cartoon Network). Dubs are more saleable in the U.S. And personally, I'd like for most of the series I like to have a lot of fans in the U.S., because more fluent English-speakers would be available to talk to me about them or write stories and draw fanart and create fansites, etc. Note, however, that I did NOT say I never watch subtitles. I've been watching anime subtitled since not long after I learned that Sailor Moon came from Japan.  (That was age 13, by the way, for me. Over six years ago). I've listened to them so much that I can pronounce Japanese even though I haven't formally studied it and can barely say what my name is in it (that's actually usually the first step for a child in learning a language, hearing the sounds and repeating them even if they don't know what they all mean. That's how they pick up their native tongue(s), but even to do that much, they have to listen an awful lot to it first). I actually plan to study Japanese formally starting next semester, in part because I can watch anime indeed in its original form.
That doesn't mean I'll stop watching dubs, though. But, at the same time, watching a dub does not make me anti-purist; I still tend to prefer dubs like those of Cowboy Bebop, dubs with accurate translation and good acting. I do understand that sometimes they must - or used to have to, I should say - Americanize titles to get the TV rights sold, but I agree that it's often a real shame that they have to do it, or that they choose to go so far. And it's a lot more than a "shame" when shows like Cardcaptor Sakura are completely chopped to pieces in the name of selling the TV rights... of course, then CCS' butchered dub failed, so we never got an uncut dub outside of the movies, either, but at least they started, hopefully, to learn how far they should or should not go when editing a series during importation. That said, some series still thankfully manage to go through mostly unscathed, such as Inuyasha or FLCL. Say whatever you want about the dub voices, at least the series do not try to hide that they are Japanese. And yet, they're both wildly successful. It's my hope that more dubs that don't try to pretend that the original isn't Japanese will become the "in" thing, since it's already been proven that very "Japanese" shows like Inuyasha can still be very successful on their own.
Ah, another anisnob, I see. Look, I won't argue that there aren't a lot of annoying 13 year olds who write crappy fanfiction watching these shows on Adult Swim, because there are.
However, there are also a LOT of people like my friends and I, who watch Adult Swim because we get the station with our cable packages, and therefore, we're seeing a lot of new series for free, LEGALLY, without having to resort to fansubs or bootlegs. If it weren't for AS, I'd never have known the glory that is Cowboy Bebop, FLCL, FMA (well, I MAY have tried that eventually, because of the concept), Metropolis, the original Read or Die OVA, or Witch Hunter Robin. AS is a great way to check out new series without shelling 30 bucks out for the first DVD. And, in the case of WHR, I realized that there were some neat plot twists later on that made the series well worth getting into and even more worth getting the special edition with the cool artbox. Also, you seem to forget that the VAST majority of American anime fans' first anime experience was in fact with a dub. A single dub of a good series can be a gateway to the general anime fandom, and can produce some perfectly intelligent fans. Oh, and just because the Inuyasha fangirls are fickle and whiny and lazy at age 13 doesn't mean that five years down the road, they won't have matured. Almost EVERYONE is an annoying little prat at 13.
By the way, someone else mentioned that the primary reason for the success of Sailor Moon was that Tokyopop was releasing the uncut manga? HA! Right. Sure it was. That's exactly why, when Cartoon Network began airing it a few years back and everyone in my middle school classes was watching it, we were surprised to find that there were "Sailor Moon comic books!".  Actually, I do believe that the somewhat butchered early dubs were another case of a gateway to the "more enlightened" side of fandom; the majority of SM fans I know started on the series by watching the dub as a kid, then graduated to fansubs and the less-edited manga. In my area, that crappy SM DiC dub went hand in hand with Pokemon in starting the whole anime craze. Considering that central Florida is now becoming known for its devoted anime fanbase, I'd say that's nothing to sneeze at.
Now we're lucky to be at a spot where it is becoming less and less "necessary" to hide an anime's origins; kids often think its cool JUST because it's Japanese, to the point where a lot of newer American cartoons are now "borrowing" the Japanese art styles. Again, I hope that this is showing a trend towards fewer butchery dubs. To be honest, though, I have to wonder - in the '80s and earlier, the fandom wasn't as rabid or touchy about every little change (you never heard of people complaining about the American names and other edits in things like Voltron or Speed Racer, and you didn't hear too awfully much, from what I've heard, about Robotech "butchering" the original material). In the '80s, too, the internet wasn't in widespread use yet. So, this is what I have to wonder: if there were no internet, would we be so touchy about so-called "tricked out" dubs? Probably not. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing I don't know, but it's an interesting thing to consider. I seem to recall that in general, Cardcaptors-like dubs were once very common. Now, not so much. That part's obviously good, though.
Anyway, back to one of my original points: many of today's "annoying little dubbies" will become tommorow's purists. Hell, they already spout Fangirl Japanese all the time anyway, maybe someday they'll learn to do more than fawn over the culture from a distance, and they'll grow up, learn the language, and become the next great set of high-quality translators, ADR directors, and anime liscensors. Hey, it happened with the Speed Racer and Robotech and Sailor Moon crowds, didn't it?
Well, I commend you on at least somewhat defining what you're version of "purist" is, but I'd thank you NOT to tell me what to claim, especially since I still watch plenty of series subbed, and quite a few series in both forms. I just HAPPEN to IN GENERAL prefer dubs. And yes, it is because I don't want to HAVE to read the subs and like hearing the English interpretation (the latter of which you obviously can't get with a Japanese track). Again, though, I still demand that most of the series I'm into have an accurate translation from sub to dub. If the dub varies signifcantly from the subtitled version, I'll watch both versions and I often stick with the sub as my favorite. I'm not too lazy to read subs at all, nor am I a slow reader (I was reading college level four years before I was to enter college); it's just that I happen to be near-sighted, so it's usually easier on my eyes to be watching a dub.
Also, I'd watch my phrasing if I were you; you mean "dubbed in English". The Japanese do most of their animation beforehand instead of the usual American practice of doing the audio first, so in fact, the VAST majority of Japanese animation is itself dubbed.
Also, in some rare cases, the Japanese track isn't even the original; the first Tenchi Muyo! movie, for instance, the English version was actually recorded first, and the second(?) Vampire Hunter D movie was done in English only.
Now this part, I agree almost wholeheartedly with. I even had this interesting idea of including an edited and uncut version on the same disc... you know how ADV has this ability to have digital overlays (they use it for the ADVidnotes and they used to have text overlays on the old Evangelion discs), and how you can program a DVD to skip over certain scenes, and how you can can program alternate music tracks? What if - call me crazy, but - what if you edited a series for airing on television, editing the audio, overlaying English text, covering up nudity and "too violent" blood splatter, skipping split second scenes of nudity or violence, even had certain songs like the OP and ED in English... but, on the DVD, all of that was completely optional. In other words, you could keep all of that editing, OR you could have it go ahead and play the deleted scenes, play it without nudity covered up, play the uncut dub, play it with the original Japanese text (with optional text subtitles, too!), play it with all of the original Japanese music. You could even have two or three sets of English subtitles, one with the dialogue from the edited dub, one from the uncut dub, heck, even one that's a more literal translation for the sub-watchers. That might well be the only way to satisfy the majority (not all, but a majority) of people in cases where the company feels the need for extensive edits in order to get it aired on TV. -Andromeda |
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GATSU
Posts: 15336 |
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Yashou:
They chose to release it, even with the edits.
They're a business. They saw how successful Fruits Basket was, and they're hoping Kodocha will be equally popular. They went for the second-best offer, because they want to cash in on the market, not because they care about the fans.
No, but that doesn't mean I'm going to pay for it, either. Andromeda:
And the manga had been out long before the versions shown on CN. The only reason companies started taking interest in the anime was they were discovering through Utena, FY and CCS sales that there was a market for shoujo.
That might be the case, but the majority of SM fans who were watching the series fansubbed aren't as many as the number of casual fans watching it on Cartoon Network. |
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