Forum - View topicKoi Kaze -- how many people accept it?
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selenta
 Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Unfortunately, with some kids hitting puberty as early as 10 (hell, I've heard of girls having it at 9), using puberty as the age of consent is about as logically effective as using age. As I said (was it in this thread?), sexual abuse can be almost unbelievably damaging. The problem is, everything about the subject of sexuality does need to be evaluated on a case by case basis, incest is one of those things. There's more or less nothing wrong with it biologically... but Steve is absolutely correct that if it comes about through the wrong method (namely, the more mature person forcing the issue), or even occurs in particular family structures, it can have disasterous results.
It is unfotunate that we need such laws to protect people, as they often will prevent people who would otherwise be doing an 'ok' thing from doing it. The problem seems to be that those who follow the laws are the ones who should generally be allowed to do what the law forbids, while those who break the law are generally those who were probably not doing a morally ok thing. (I'm speaking almost purely in terms of consenting sexual activity here) Personally, I have a problem with the adult-child relationship for many of the power relationship issues Berry mentioned, but generally the sibling relationships don't seem to have such an issue. The problems with the siblings is when it's not consentual, and the fact that they have to live together is exploited. In either case, the broken familial relationship will mentally scar that person for life, in a way they may never recover; and is almost definitely far more damaging than if it were done by an outsider. However, if it is consentual, and both parties are mentally mature enough to at least make an informed decision (as seems to be the opinion of most people in Koi Kaze), I agree there is absolutely no reason someone else has the right to stop them. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Give me the official study/poll that gives such a percentage, otherwise I'm going to call that out as being "a bunch of bull." Different societies have different viewpoints and of course you will have having differing views for an individual.
As selenta already said, take it as a case by case basis. If say we have an abusive parent raping their young child, then certainly no. If it is by consent and both parties involve are fully aware of the act (basically as long as it isn't an adult telling their kid that its a "good thing to do" and said kid is ignorant about it), then I don't find it right to butt in and say that they have no right to do so because it is within their freedom and there is no harm being done to anyone. While I haven't seen it yet, Koi Kaze seems to have both individuals understanding of what their relationship means and neither seems to be abusive, so I can't see a problem with it. |
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daxomni
 Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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Obviously I have no such poll. And of course no poll ever gets 99% anyway. Bogus entries and statistical errors will nearly always bring it down around 95% at best. However, regardless of what the true percentage is, the idea that incest, especially adult-child incest, is publicly tolerated by more than a small minority of folks simply has no foundation in reality. Nearly ever country on earth has outlawed such acts and prescribed among the harshest penalties available for convictions. How can you explain this if a general disgust toward incest isn't nearly universal?
I guess you didn't read the other thread where I described being hit-on by a twenty-something woman when I was ten. I had no idea what I was getting myself and whatever 'consent' I could have possibly given would have been absolutely meaningless. The long-term issues and repercussions involved were completely foreign to me and I would have been extremely ill-prepared to anticipate them.
spoiler[In addition to a nearly continuous level underlying hostility, there are indeed short bursts of abusive behavior and in the end the actions of the brother not only weigh heavily on the sister, they also bring both of them to the brink of suicide. Koi Kaze actually spends very little time covering the aftermath and leaves a lot up to the viewer to decide. It is my view that the kid sister wasn't craving the physical aspect nearly as much as her adult brother, and that her positive reaction afterward was primarily a result of his turnaround in other ways.] |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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What's there to explain? I'm not proclaiming that hardly that many folks in this world who would approve of incest, let alone constitute a sizable portion, so I don't see why you are drilling me on it. And since most of the people on the planet apparently hold this belief that incest is something horrid thing, thereby making something akin to a "universal truth" or close to it, then how about the popular belief in a god or gods? There has to be something to that since so many people believe in a creator or group of deities, by your logic. Just for the word, I'm an Agnostic as well as being liberal on various issues. Anyway, I don't see why you can't just point the issue of incest to normal human behavior as much as my example of religion. People have specified and set reaction to certain elements when exposed to them depending on a lot of things, which is a combination of who they are (nature) and the environment they were raised in (nurture). Incest itself does not harm anyone and as pointed out earlier the increase in bad genetics depends on the person. If someone rapes a person in their family, incest is not the issue but rape is -- don't confuse the two. It's the same thing with homosexuality and bisexuality in the United States. As long as both parties involved are consenting and understanding of what they do in addition to it bringing no harm to themselves or anyone else, then I see no reason why it should be persecuted.
Right, and that would be an instance of where any sexual acts should not be done. A ten-year-old is unlikely to be able to understand let alone be mature to handle something like that, so it shouldn't simply be done. Hell, I'm fifteen and having a go with someone significantly older than me would be too much of an issue that I couldn't handle.
Thankfully you didn't spoil any critical elements, though it seems from what other viewers have said you have an incorrectly painted picture of a spoiler[lust-crazed brother who wants to have sex with his absolutely unwilling sister.] |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Hellkorn,
I think the point was mostly that, when discussing incest in a thread about a show where an older man has a sexual relationship with his younger, underaged sister-- well, then the presumption is that your arguements about incest would be about similar examples. You agree rape is bad. You agree that having a sexual relationship with someone much younger than you who is underaged would often be bad-- "bad" here not meaning morally bad, but psychologically harmful to the people involved. I think most people here, including yourself, are then in agreement. I think there is a different logic involved when discussing incest between two consenting adults, which I don't think was the point of almost anyone's arguements here. I don't care for incest myself, but if two consenting adults want to go at it, fine. And although I thought your statement that the real problem wasn't incest but rape-- which is well said-- I think the larger issue is that there are times where a younger person may not know if they are being raped, or whether what is happening to them/they are doing is to their benefit. The real question in this thread, to me, has been whether a younger person (underaged-- how ever you want to define that, which is, in many ways, the real question) can have enough sense of themselves to really be able to handle an incestual relationship with someone older than them, or whether, for that matter, it's really a healthy practice for the older person either. Someone on an earlier page said that sexual development of a child should be when they get to decide when the have sex-- even if it's with their parents or a sibling. I would disagree on that point, as I think someone who is 10 or 12 or 14, or even 16 for that matter, is obviously not in a position of equal status with their parents, nor able to really understand the consequences and complicated shifts in power dynamics that would go on in a family involved in incest. That's my take on it-- others seem to think it's no big deal. Of course, I suppose it should all be taken on a case by case level, but society makes laws to protect the many, at the cost of the few. Which is a shame in some ways, but probably a great thing for those little girls and boys that would have been molested otherwise, or atleast as a mode of recourse for those who have been molested to get protection. As for Koi Kaze, perhaps their relationship is ok. Perhaps it is a case where love is the most important thing. That's cool. It was never my point to disprove that. It was more the broad, blanket statements that "incest is ok" without any addendums that made me pause and think and want to say something. |
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rojjin
 Posts: 25 Location: Tokyo 3, 2015 |
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I watched this anime because I was intrested from you post. At the end spoiler[When they say goodbye and Nanoka goes home and he says "I love you". Am I correct to assume that they will continue to love each other and live life normally. Kind of like a behind the scenes relationship.] Thanks
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hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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Thats what I get from it. I assume that either Nanoka moves in with her brother and they live that way; or more likely she stays at her fathers and sees him daily, likely going to his house after school etc. Obviously as she gets older and moves on from high school she'll probably move in with him then. |
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Viga_of_stars
 Posts: 1240 Location: Washington D.C. in the Anime Atelier |
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I hope they move in together far away and live as a regular couple. But that can start a whole other series. i rather it not but an episode where a future is shown or ova would be nice. bad or good. i like happy ending though |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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Okay, I have watched the first four eps of this series so far, and my impression of Koshiro so far is that spoiler[he does not have any social experience whatsoever. Once he crossed the line of smelling Nanoka's bra and getting off to thinking about her, something is totally wrong with this guy. She's 12 years younger than him for thing, GET A CLUE!!] Get back to this when I watch more.
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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If I may, now that I've finished this series, I would like to give my impression of how things worked out at the end. This kind of issue has always been a taboo and controversial issue, to SAY the least. I think, for one, that it means that this guy doesn't have a life, and can't learn to control his own feelings while his sister, in my mind, let herself get lost over this issue. Surprisingly this was addressed by only one outsider the entire series, nobody else ever found out. Very difficult to say what would have happened had the parents found out, they might have blamed themselves for separating, and then more things would have come up. This really took a turn for the worst, once they crossed the line (You who have seen it would know), and that means a point of no return. I think though, in the long run that they found the "happiness" they were looking for, and that's the choice that they decided to make. I come from a point where I have a younger sister like this situation, but I wouldn't DREAM of even trying what was done here. That's just too much. The soundtrack was a very good factor of this series, kept it very much alive. I got this series from the Geneon Sale, and I'm glad I did, because now I can try and get rid of it without having lost much money. Not something I would want my parents or siblings to find.
I'm very torn at what rating to give it, I gave it an Excellent at first, but think that a Very Good will suit it. Not something that everone would want to have, that's why. |
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daxomni
Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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I came away with a rather different impression. Even though I'm no expert on Japanese culture, I assumed that the parents weren't completely clueless about it, and at least two coworkers seemed to have some idea of what was going on, though one was only inadvertently correct. I think the fact that only one person ever actually confronted them is as much a testament to Japanese cultural sensibilities and peculiarities as anything else.
At the moment they (or should I say the brother?) actually chose how far to take it they were both on the verge of mental collapse. Thus I feel that they were not in fact choosing to follow happiness but instead chose to embrace substantial risk and yet were rewarded with happiness in spite of their actions.
The whole big brother + little sister thing has become so inexplicably common in anime that I sometimes hardly even notice it anymore. Of course, most real folks I know who have siblings don't appear to have any such feelings for each other, at least not any that they betray in public. I don't have any bothers or sisters myself and that is probably why I don't have much in the way of a strong personal opinion on the issue. In the case of Koi Kaze however, the massive age gap really gives me something to question, both on moral grounds and on the incredible unlikelihood of such a relationship being desired by both parties. I realize that most people seem to disagree with my view of Koi Kaze, but I think we can all agree that this series is both unique and thought provoking regardless of how you choose to interpret it. |
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mushino
Posts: 7 |
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Since I've been in the process of writing a fanfiction where fraternal twins fall in love with each other (after partially growing up apart and unaware of each other's relationship) so this fell in step with my current fascination.
Overall this anime is very well written and executed. I actually don't have an issue with the blood relation, nor the age (my parents have a similiar distance in age) - though Nanoka looks younger than 16 in the final episode and the heights of the two are out of wack. That loliconish impression was kinda uncomfortable but I can accept it. As for Koshiro being abusive - I don't see it. One of the core aspects of his character was that he cares deeply about the people he loves, but has problems showing it. (Pretty common trait in anime protagonists actually....) This was not just apparent with Nanoka but how he hasn't visited his mother in years and is in general uncomfortable about her. Yet, when he thought that Nanoka was seriously hurting on their walk (the cramps), he ran right back to her getting as emotional as the father (total emo). Nanoka saw past his rough edges here (told him to stop exagerrating, stood up, and took him by the hand) and I think from then on - she is the dominant power in the relationship. Afterward, it's usually on hinges on her where the relationship heads in general. This domination is probably most apparent in the scenes where she leads him around - shopping and whatnot. The "suicide" talk in the last episode is misleading in this thread, there's no impression of Nanoka contemplating it seriously at all (beyond in deference for her brother as she talks him out of it) and Koshiro seemed to contemplate it because he was trying to conform to society and do the "proper" thing in such a situation, as he was trying all along (unsucessfully).
They made a decision. How were they on the verge of mental collapse in that scene because you don't agree with the decision? |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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I know that people wont like me for this but...
I see absolutely nothing wrong with incest itself, in this case the age gap is a factor but if both parties understand the situation and still consent then the age gap doesn't matter much anymore(obviously considering potential harm that could be caused). I have both a brother and a sister, both of similar age to me and while I (and as far as I know they) haven't ever had an incestuous feeling I don't really see anything wrong if they did. If two people love each other and both understand and consent then I consider it irrelevant if they are related or not. The only real thing that could be raised is the evils of inbreeding but considering the capabilities of modern medicine (and the feelings towards other genetic problems) it becomes more or less irrelevant. It's not like the developed world is evolving properly anymore anyway... I am thoroughly anti-PC in a great many areas actually... |
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aya_honda
 Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
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Reading the summary of Koi Kaze (which happened quite some time ago) I was intrigued by the subject and I felt at that time that I should watch it some day and it rested in my room till I saw this thread and I thought it was time to pick it up and watch it. Unfortunately I never bother to take the manga but maybe I'll this one of these days. As for the subejct, I was a little prepared by the fact that was familiar with Angel Sanctuary which also touched such a love story.
As the anime is concerned, I have to say that I liked it. It has a nice and tender way of telling the story. The artwork is completly wonderful and I had the impression of warmth. Like many people have stated before me and probably will after me, I really felt that the anime weren't trying to pass judgements. It tells the story of a brother and a sister that fall in love with each other and have to deal with the further consequences of this act in their lives. I think that perhaps the judgements are left to us, the ones that see this series and unquestionably the sensitive issue that it has approached will always rise heated debates (it is impossible not be so). The characters for me were intriguing. Koshiro (hopefully, I have spelled his name right) is a man who has just been dumped and realises perhaps for the first time in his life that he has never loved before. And all of a sudden this girl, Nanoka, appears in his life and although she is his sister he starts to have certain feelings for her. And then their relationship moves to a totally different level. If I agree with this? Well, in the anime I didn't have any problems to accept the fact that they have fallen in love with one another. But in real life I think that I'm not that opened minded. (Am I a hypocrit? I don't know.) Actually, I am sure that I wouldn't accept this sort of relationship. Maybe because society has educated us in such a way as not to accept this kind of love or maybe because I know of the genetic dangers that stand behind such loves, either way I wouldn't accept this in real life. What is amazing at this series it the tender way in which it tells the story. I had the impression that I actually saw there real feelings and real characters and I enjoyed this part. Also the music had a melancholic note which I loved. |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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These shouldn't matter anymore, at least not in a society with advanced medical practices like Japan. If we are willing to put out th effort to help those with other serious genetic illnesses such as S.C.I.D or any number of others, then the genetic defects caused by inbreeding (which isn't an immediae process anyway) shouldn't get any different treatment. So I can't see any real problems if two people are consenting to the relationship, if they are homo/hetero no one really complains anymore so why is this any different? |
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