Forum - View topicFate/Apocrypha (TV).
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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India has as many people as Europe and US together. I imagine they know their own epics better than those of Western culture. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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Fair enough, though I don't remember if it's just the level of fame for the land the Grail is located rather than the world as a whole.
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Spotlesseden
Posts: 3514 Location: earth |
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Karna is not some new servant, he already exist in Fate franchise. It said Karna is on par with Gilgamesh already prove that rather you know him or not doesn't matter. Or maybe tons of people know him, it's your issue? The problem with Karna is he has very high mana consumption, he needs to have a strong master that can continue give him mana. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Except that was in Fate/Extra which uses an entirely different grail system and thus not comparable.
I was just using him as an example. But if you say he could single handled beat everyone I guess that's why he easily killed Seigfried and Jeanne.... oh wait. He didn't :/ The fame thing isn't something I'm making up if that's what I'm being accused of. I distinctly remember Saber explaining this to Shiro in the VN. It stuck out at me because Saber thought Cu was more famous then her when I'd never heard of him until FSN introduced him to me. |
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Etrien
 Posts: 525 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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Fame is definitely a major factor in servant's strength. Not only did F/SN establish that, but I think they even already said as much in Fate/Apocrypha...? I'm not sure, though, if it has ever been fully explained exactly how that works (knowing Nasu, probably) - because it seems to me to be some combination of local fame, global fame, and historic fame.
I think I remember it being stated that the summoning of Japanese heroes was forbidden in Fuyuki since they would be too powerful in that location. (Sasaki Kojiro was a loophole of sorts.) Which should make Vlad obscenely powerful in Apocrypha. If global and/or historic fame matter, then that would also tremendously benefit other heroes like Karna. As was mentioned above, he may be pretty unknown in the west, but he's a pretty big deal to probably over 1/3 of the world's population, originating in an epic that's comparable to the bible in scope. Plus, there's the additional obvious factor for servant strength: their own strength in lore. Someone like Karna, a nigh-invincible demigod who conquered the world, is going to be incredibly powerful even aside from fame. And I think this is where Mordred gets her strength as well. Mordred is definitely less famous than Arthur (although still one of the most famous knights of the round table), but Mordred is also the slayer of Arthur. And since Arthur is such an immensely powerful character, having Mordred's most famous feat be fighting and killing Arthur should automatically make her into a powerful servant. Or so I would think.
I've got a couple considerations on that. But I'd long wondered what the significance of the Homunculus's name was (seen it previously online, but it hasn't been said in the show yet, so spoiler?) - spoiler[since I believe he's to be named Sieg], and this makes me wonder if he'll be able to invoke Siegfried's power and/or transform into him. Heck, maybe he'll go full Megaman and start collecting the powers from lots of servants! That would be awesome. Or Siegfried does come back somehow. We'll see. I've tried to stay pretty unspoiled on Apocrypha. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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I've only read her Wikipedia page, but I see nothing there to explain why Semiramis is suitable for the assassin class. Sounds like she was an effective ruler who led her armies well. Is there any insight given to this later?
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Raftina
 Posts: 3282 |
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Admittedly I did not read The Epic of Gilgamesh, but somehow I doubt he was known for throwing a bunch of wrapping around. The real answer to why semiramis it's an assassin is likely that the author made it up for the story.
That and a large number of female rulers have (probably false) rumors about their being poisoners. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Obviously some liberties are taken, but there's still a fundamental basis for it. In Gil's case, he was the ruler of the entire world and had every treasure in his possession, including weapons that would later go on to appear in other legends. But since Gil himself isn't proficient with any of them the best he can do is shoot them, hence his Archer class.
Of course it's supposed to be impossible to summon anyone other than Hassan as an Assassin class, but that would be too boring. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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The issue is that if you're a famous assassin, it means you're a bad one. That's probably one of the reasons why Nasu came up with the whole Hassan thing. Obviously now that they have to keep churning out Servants to make money, that's out of the window. So you have people with only slightest relation to the trade as assassins. Shuten-doji? Give me a break.
Same with Casters. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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I have no problem with the Caster thing since this is a world where magecraft is common. William Shakespeare and Mozart were secretly magicians? Sure, why not?
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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during Fate/UBW It was made clear in the Nasuverse early on that the (Sasaki Kojirou) Assassin summoned by (Medea) Caster was simply a "false" Heroic spirit taking up the slot, it is more important that the "legend" of the Heroic Spirit is summoned than it is if the person truly did or didn't exist in history.
This accounts to why (Iskandar) Rider is over 7 feet tall during Fate/Zero as it would match the "legend" of the heroic spirit that a great conqueror would likely be a huge beefcake. If Fate wants to go full throttle, you could in theory introduce outright "fictional" characters as long as the legend was strong enough in social thought, while of course the Nasuverse is simply going to have reimagining of historic and mythological figures, however it wouldn't be so outlandish to include video game or movie pop culture characters as potential servants. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Actually Waver points out that in legend Alexander was believed to be very short and so found it odd that Rider was so large. The "blueprints", as it were, are taken from the Throne of Heroes so their appearance/ability matches how they were in life (otherwise Arthuria would be summoned as a man). Since the Grail is keeping things that shouldn't exist in the physical plane it takes a lot of energy. That's why Servants need a constant supply of mana or else they'll disappear. I think the amount of fame and acceptance by the general populace makes it easier for a hero's power to take root in reality. Kojirou's case was an oddity specifically because Medea cheated the system to summon him. It's not that he himself is fictional, but the idea of "Sasaki Kojirou" was formed by combining the story of several nameless swordsmen together. He's just one of those swordsmen. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2881 |
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#5
First episode this series with zero action whatsoever. In exchange, a bit of character development and plenty of foreshadowing for events to come. As pointed out a few pages ago, it looks like Red Berserker will turn up again in a future episode but on the side of the black faction. I didn't understand the scene back in episode 1 with the praying girl, so I'm grateful this episode explained a few peculiarities regarding the Ruler servant and how this affects her ability to do the job she's assigned. Does she get visions of the future as part of the servant class package or is it a special ability from her historical personage? The homunculus finally has a name! Sieg is an odd one but I suppose if one wants to commemorate a benefactor that's one way of doing it. If Ruler is right about his eventual fate, it's going to be quite the chain of events that leads him to the scene she envisions. Red assassin is firmly on the side of her camp, but it seems the black faction have to deal with a lost servant and one which has gone rogue. Apart from the OP animation and a brief glimpse in episode 3, I wonder if Jack is any good in a fight after she's lost the element of surprise. Post-credits scene is a definite spoiler about things to come, but it's somewhat disappointing that the source material of this adaptation didn't really deviate much from the original franchise when the character of the church overseer is called into question. |
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Spotlesseden
Posts: 3514 Location: earth |
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Expect he tried to killer. That means Red believes he is stronger than ruler. Black are bunch of wuss or very weak. Let her take the boy from them. If you think Karna is weak because you never heard of him so be it. We should atleast agree, the Red side has way more confident in their fight ability than the black side. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Joan of Arc was said to receive prophetic visions from God, yeah.
Sorry, but you're starting to cross into "Mai Husbando is the best, how dare you think otherwise!" territory. I didn't say he was weak, just that any potential lack of fame (not to mention the limitations of the Grail system) will result in him not being as powerful as his legend dictates. As for the factions, the Reds strike me as a bunch of a-holes who don't even bother talking to their Servants and let Shiro call the shots. I really don't care if Shiro is deceiving them. They deserve it. Mr. Voltron is the only exception. The Blacks are considerably more likable as a whole and are playing a smarter game. Why kill Ruler when you can try to get her to side with you? And if she refuses it's best not to challenge her lest you lose even more of your Servants. |
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