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octopodpie wrote:

I changed the article title numerous times while attempting to find one I liked. At some point "mahou" got lost in the "delete-type-delete" process. It's a bad oversight on my part that I fully take credit for.

Apparently the "mahou" got lost throughout the whole article, including the intro text on the frontpage... Confused

There is a loooot of misinformation about Minky Momo out there that English speakers usually accept because so little of the show's been translated.

Momo was not hit by a truck in the last episode. She was hit by a truck in episode 46, but before the commercial break, it's clear she's alive in some form. She's reincarnated in an identical but non magical body in the second half of the episode to live as a regular human. (This sequence bears no resemblance to the sequence in Excel Saga that supposedly spoofs it.) The show then (unexpectedly) continues for 17 more episodes.

The show was nonstandard for the time for being more satirical and having more varied plots than most magical girl shows, as well as aiming more at an otaku periphery demographic through parody and fanservice. It wasn't usually as dark as it's made out to be. Yes, the show has a few attempted murders and suicides, but they're all thwarted. Not that no one dies in the show or it doesn't have dark moments (series two's "Run, Dream Train!" is especially bitingly cynical, and the tone of "Train Station of Our Memories" is mostly pretty dreary) but anyone who's read the rumors will be surprised at the general tameness of the show's content.

A lot of people seem to think that Princess Tutu is a deconstruction of the magical girl genre. While I can sort of understand that sentiment, Princess Tutu actually is more of a deconstruction of fairytales, or of storytelling in general than of the magical girl genre.

／人 ◕ ‿‿ ◕ 人＼ wrote:

Dessa wrote:

For something that is more properly "shoujo", and also for when it came out, I'm surprised Magic Knight Rayearth isn't on the list. It's much different from the "mostly happy endings" series of when it came out, and also merged magical girl with mecha, which really wasn't done in that time, either.

You focus too much on "trailblazing" and not enough on "deconstruction." To deconstruct a genre, you first have to start with the setup of the genre. Getting pulled into a fantasy world where one fights monsters, gains equipment, and fights to free the world is not a common magical girl setup. If MKR deconstructs anything, it would be jRPGs, but that would give MKR too much credit--the sort of dark, depressing, and betrayal filled plot twists for which you credit MKR has already been done by at least the MegaTen franchise by that point.

Nowhere in my post did I mention the word "deconstruction", and by the time I posted, the thread had pretty much already established that none of the series on the list are really "deconstructions." MKR does, however, fit in with what the list has, which are mainly subversions and completely unexpected twists. Heck, one of them (forgot which, I haven't seen it), the whole point of it being on the list seemed to be "this is priestesses with mecha." And it came out in 2004. Priestesses (if they have powers) are close enough to being magical girls, and MKR predates that by almost a decade.

maaya wrote:

mh? There's a japanese word, and in one interview at least Urobuchi said this

Quote:

Q: Madoka is considered a deconstruction of magic girl shows. Are there any other genres you'd be interested in doing a deconstruction of?

Urobuchi Well, Madoka Magica is not the first show to deconstruct a genre; Neon Genesis Evangelion deconstructed the giant robot genre. Perhaps all the scripts I write will be deconstructions.

No, there isn't a Japanese word. I was at the panel, and the translator and him went back and forth to figure out how to explain the word. If you read the thread from that interview, in previous interviews, he apparently used a word that was a closer translation to "subversion".

cl-shojo wrote:

A lot of people seem to think that Princess Tutu is a deconstruction of the magical girl genre. While I can sort of understand that sentiment, Princess Tutu actually is more of a deconstruction of fairytales, or of storytelling in general than of the magical girl genre.

Yeah, it just uses Mahou Shoujo as the medium for its larger commentary.

I think in general everyone is moving way too far from the original point of deconstruction and instead mistaking it more for deconstructive analysis where in something, like a genre (We'll say magical girls) has a subject that is typically overlooked or never emphasized, is in turn emphasized by a new work. In Utena's case for example, we'll go with one of the major themes: sexuality. It's typically a taboo in the case of magical girls which tend to have the main character represent innocence and purity. We think of this purity as one of the main pillars of what defines the magical girl. Utena brings up the question of what happens when the heroine has a sexual awakening, and may be outright corrupted by it. Going into it, even further, what if it's the magic that brings about this sexual corruption?

By focusing on the sexuality of a magical girl Utena knocks down a supportive pillar that makes a Magical Girl a Magical Girl. Bringing down this pillar begins a revolution, if you will, into what makes up the definition of a Magical Girl, especially since Utena has the possibility of retaining that purity and in the end having a chance to return to the other typical values/pillars of a magical girl, things like sticking to your convictions and the power of love and friendship conquering all.

But hey, that's just my two cents in something that apparently has evolved a lot over the years in terms of how to interpret something you read.

In defense of Princess Tutu fitting deconstruction, yes it plays with deconstructing fairy tales quite well (I loved the focus on traditional story structure) but it stood out from other magical girl shows at the time for me for some particular details.

First off, Ahiru is not a girl, she is a duck. How can you be a magical girl if you're an animal? She was an innocent, pure animal who was given the form of a girl to help someone. That right there takes out a major requirement of what makes a magical girl.

Next, we have the goal of a magical girl, and how her actions affect others. Typically, it's all sunshine and rainbows, beating the baddies, and everyone goes home happy, and in this sometimes there's a collective reward element involved, like with Sailor Moon for example, we had various crystals or hearts or whatever. Cardcaptor Sakura we had the cards, and Madoka we had those horrible little grief seeds/soul gems. Typically there is a good result in the end of collecting such things, but as we saw in Madoka these was NOT the case. Princess Tutu is one of the first magical girls shows I can recall that ever had a serious negative element attached to it. At first it seemed like her collecting the shards of the Prince's heart was a good thing, but then we eventually see that her help is not wanted, and to the eyes of the people she's trying to help she actually is turned into the story's villain. Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, and Magic Knight Rayearth (CLAMP loves this theme btw) typically turn this into a story finale twist to show that the heroes have unwittingly brought about a sort of apocalypse, but Princess Tutu made it a part of her everyday goal, and it in turn began a lot of self questioning as to what exactly was she doing, and who she was helping. This was in my opinion quite revolutionary for a magical girl show, especially in one like Princess Tutu that targets little children, where as things like Utena and Madoka skew toward an older audience.

Then of course Ahiru doesn't get the prince in the end. She doesn't even get to stay a girl. What kind of magical girl ending is that? I'll tell you what it is, it's one of those damn annoying ones that force onto you the reality that life just isn't fair. Don't magical girls typically get the guy and have a happy, magical ending?

People can argue that Princess Tutu is a fairy tale show, and not really a magical girl, but when you break it down Princess Tutu has a LARGE amount of similar themes and scenarios to Utena, which also is heavily influenced by fairy tale stories and the archetype of Princesses and Princes. So what if it works in fairy tales? The best stories blur the lines and merge in themes. Then there's the whole being trapped in this weird little world they're all fated to play in till the end among, other things. And when it comes down to it, with the witch theme and magical objects and all that, isn't the root of a magical girl story a fairy tale?

So what if it deconstructs both the elements of a story/fairy tale, and a magical girl? As long as it fits the requirements for a magical girl show, it's a magical girl show. A show has to stick to just one thing? That'd make anime pretty boring. We'd have magical girls sticking to just targeting little girls, and then where'd we all be? Oh yeah, stuck in an argument about the shoujo genre and how a magical girl is only a magical girl when she's in that sort of show. Labels are a stupid thing to put on a creative medium to begin with. People need to quit limiting the thinking here, otherwise stuff won't ever evolve. All the best shows blur the lines, so we should be happy when we find them and recognize them for this.

nice post, littlegreenwolf Smile

Hope it'll get some people to pick up Tutu.

Dessa wrote:

No, there isn't a Japanese word. I was at the panel, and the translator and him went back and forth to figure out how to explain the word. If you read the thread from that interview, in previous interviews, he apparently used a word that was a closer translation to "subversion".

Do you have some links to these interviews or something? The japanese word for deconstruction is 脱構築, but it's possible that Urobuchi doesn't use it.

Well, looking for Urobuchi's interviews I'm now much more confused by the one where he apparently links breast size to a girl's fighting spirit. Saying that the smaller her breasts the more she has to fight, because girls with big breasts can take it easy and should be strong. And that's why he mostly turns his characters into "lolis" and doesn't feel very sorry about girls with big breasts getting killed off ... o_O Very confused by the otaku(?) usage of the word "bi***" as well right now ...

Oh let's not forget that KnM, had a giant robot premise. So that made it a little different, but then you got Magic Knight Rayearth which is also a shoujo show by Clamp but has giant robots.

I tried watching Yami to Bōshi to Hon no Tabibito or "Yamibou" and for whatever reason I could not get into it. I don't know why. In fact that it was the 2nd "yuri-esque" show that I tried tackling after KnM. Before that was My-HiME. I did watch Uta~Kata, and I could not wrap my head around that show. Probably because I was looking for something more straightforward. I did manage to get through the series and finally saw the special ep. (Elfen Lied did this same thing following the trend of the special DVD only ep) and still I was left with questions. I even recall one vlog site that hated this series because they too found themselves stumped analyzing it. Not to mention the found the series disturbing. I was surprised that it was picked up for release here. Talk about very unlikely acquisition.

I was always curious about Minky Momo for years. I remember it from many of my old obscure anime magazines. I was always curious what she was about. She looked like a regular girl then she's got all these different wands.

Hey does My-HiME count? Since it was a high cast of girls who were in charge of magical powers. I wonder if the new Cutey Honey counts. There was a debate about this some years back about whether Cutey Honey counted as shoujo. But we know it's not because of it's overall premise. Cutey Honey does fall into the category of transforming girls, but not magic. Not to mention CH's target audience were males. But what if CH was a sort of shojo comic done in Go Nagai's own twisted way. But later there was Cutey Honey Flash done with the shoujo flavor. Filled with large eyes, curls and color the likes of Sailor Moon. PC all the way, lots of tasteful nudity, no perverted old jii-jiis, no ripped panty jokes where butts are shown, or creepy lesbian teachers with mustachos. And of course there's Sailor Moon, and Pretty Cure (ass kickers all the way). Nuff said.

maaya wrote:

Do you have some links to these interviews or something? The japanese word for deconstruction is 脱構築, but it's possible that Urobuchi doesn't use it.

No video was allowed in the panel, so no, I don't. Perhaps the translator didn't know that word, but however "deconstruction" was translated, Urobuchi didn't seem to understand until she explained it differently.

Chrno2 wrote:

Hey does My-HiME count? Since it was a high cast of girls who were in charge of magical powers. I wonder if the new Cutey Honey counts. There was a debate about this some years back about whether Cutey Honey counted as shoujo. But we know it's not because of it's overall premise. Cutey Honey does fall into the category of transforming girls, but not magic. Not to mention CH's target audience were males. But what if CH was a sort of shojo comic done in Go Nagai's own twisted way. But later there was Cutey Honey Flash done with the shoujo flavor. Filled with large eyes, curls and color the likes of Sailor Moon. PC all the way, lots of tasteful nudity, no perverted old jii-jiis, no ripped panty jokes where butts are shown, or creepy lesbian teachers with mustachos. And of course there's Sailor Moon, and Pretty Cure (ass kickers all the way). Nuff said.

Magical girls are pretty much split into 3 categories. You've got the cute little magical witches, the magical warriors, and then the singing idol/I wanna grow up girls. Magick Knight Rayearth and Sailor Moon fall more under the magical warrior portion of a magical girl. Cutey Honey is sort of the main inspiration for the magical warrior girl (at least in Sailor Moon's case, which sort of created the subcategory), however since Honey is far from "innocent" and is a grown woman so I wouldn't count her, the magic portion not even being addressed (magic is a must for magical girl). No matter how many times they remake her, especially if they make her younger, she's still going to be a sex symbol in Japan. Also if you count her then you have to throw in the Devil Huner Yokos, and who knows what else you can dig up from old ecchi comics/anime. I think the general rule among magical girl shows/comics is that if there is blatant and continuous fanservice for a male audience then that sexualizes them and then it's not really a magical girl. This sort of means then that the Mai-Hime francise is already excluded, but if I recall correctly I believe it was more sci-fi that magical girl anyway.

Sailor Moon and Magic Knight Rayearth use magic.

littlegreenwolf wrote:

Magical girls are pretty much split into 3 categories. You've got the cute little magical witches, the magical warriors, and then the singing idol/I wanna grow up girls. Magick Knight Rayearth and Sailor Moon fall more under the magical warrior portion of a magical girl. Cutey Honey is sort of the main inspiration for the magical warrior girl (at least in Sailor Moon's case, which sort of created the subcategory), however since Honey is far from "innocent" and is a grown woman so I wouldn't count her, the magic portion not even being addressed (magic is a must for magical girl). No matter how many times they remake her, especially if they make her younger, she's still going to be a sex symbol in Japan. Also if you count her then you have to throw in the Devil Huner Yokos, and who knows what else you can dig up from old ecchi comics/anime. I think the general rule among magical girl shows/comics is that if there is blatant and continuous fanservice for a male audience then that sexualizes them and then it's not really a magical girl. This sort of means then that the Mai-Hime francise is already excluded, but if I recall correctly I believe it was more sci-fi that magical girl anyway.

Sailor Moon and Magic Knight Rayearth use magic.

Just about Mai-Hime -- the girls abilities *are* magical, not scientific (except for one person who had HIME powers but was not an actual Hime, and another that was actually an android). I would consider the Hime in Mai-Hime to be magical girls, though they may not be Magical Girls according to the standard definition.

My~HiME is not really a magical girl show, it takes more than females using magic to be Mahou Shoujo.

Now, My~ZHiME, despite the powers being more obviously scientific in nature, is much closer to being Mahou Shoujo.

Fencedude,

From my understanding about My-Hime, the writers wanted to basically do a shonen anime, but only with all female characters. And, in addition to that reveral, have all the male characters be effectively useless. I don't disagree with your assessment (which is why I used the small case magical girl to discribe them and said they wouldn't meet the upper case Magical Girl definition.

And yes, in the later show, it is *specifically* stated that the Otome couldn't have sex with men as it would cause them to lose their powers (by making them incompatible with their nano-machines), and that issue actually came into the plot. So, yeah, according to the standard definition, in this respect the Otome were closer to being "pure" Magical Girls than the HiME, where that issue is never directly addressed. Kinda weird, huh?

maaya wrote:

nice post, littlegreenwolf Smile

Hope it'll get some people to pick up Tutu.

Dessa wrote:

No, there isn't a Japanese word. I was at the panel, and the translator and him went back and forth to figure out how to explain the word. If you read the thread from that interview, in previous interviews, he apparently used a word that was a closer translation to "subversion".

Do you have some links to these interviews or something? The japanese word for deconstruction is 脱構築, but it's possible that Urobuchi doesn't use it.

Well, looking for Urobuchi's interviews I'm now much more confused by the one where he apparently links breast size to a girl's fighting spirit. Saying that the smaller her breasts the more she has to fight, because girls with big breasts can take it easy and should be strong. And that's why he mostly turns his characters into "lolis" and doesn't feel very sorry about girls with big breasts getting killed off ... o_O Very confused by the otaku(?) usage of the word "bi***" as well right now ...

Doing some minor research on that term, I have concluded that you are, indeed, right. To think they had a specific word for the actual term... but either way, I can't remember if anyone gave the term he used in Japanese in the topic that included the interview where he said it.
I also want to know which interview the breast size thing came from, though. Whether or not I read it before, I have no memory of it. And I have been trying to compile as much Urobuchi information as possible.

mh, i was more thinking of links to interviews where he supposedly talks about "subversion" etc. Haven't been lucky in finding those on the internet yet.

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The List - 6 Trailblazing Shojo "Deconstructions" You Should Be Watching