Forum - View topicKoi Kaze -- how many people accept it?
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daxomni
 Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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How the hell can a child give consent? Consent implies you know what you're doing and are willing to accept the consequences. A child has no frame of reference for starting a sexual relationship and has no idea what kind of consequences can result from it. Also, you used to be a father, right? What the hell kind of father views incest as being a perfectly acceptable relationship? As for your comment about nobody complaining about homosexuals, well, you need to visit us down here in Texas. It was illegal to commit homosexual sex until the (previous) Supreme Court struck down the law a couple years ago. Gay marriage and civil unions (gay marriage lite) have since been banned by law. Come on down and see all the anti-gay bumper stickers and tell me nobody complains. I'm not gay, in fact I typically take offense whenever another guy tries to make a pass at me, but down here in Texas I'm about as liberal as anyone gets. On ANN, however, I'm one of the most conservative folks on here. I think there is something seriously wrong with some folks in both groups. Some Texans need to chill out about silly issues like gay marriage and some ANN folks need to knock it off with all the real life incest is harmless nonsense. |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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I know this is a thread dedicated to people who mostly appreciate Koi Kaze, so I know I'm basically in the minority, but daxomni, I pretty much agree with you about the "I'm down with incest" type of attitude having some issues. Beyond both people needing to be "of age", and the complicated issues of how you decide when someone is old enough to give consent (an issue largely based on opinion, and the country you're in), there is an even larger, more fundamental issue here-- namely, the basic, emotional issues re: incest, in all but the most amazingly rare circumstances. The attitude that an incestual relationship, between two like-aged individuals who have given their consent is somehow ok emotionally, and doesn't carry all sorts of other damaging ramifications and altered family dynamics regarding trust and the long-term non-judgemental accepting love one typically gets from family is mis-guided. The idea that a sexual relationship between family members is somehow just like a sexual relationship between two non-family members is a fallacy. That's just my opinion.
Of course, Koi Kaze may represent one of those amazingly rare situations where you have two siblings who really love each other, and who are really not like a brother and sister at all, and who could possibly, in some way, be a real couple. ..... Even so, .... even so, I think it's farfetched and not very thoughtful to equate your opinions of incest with your opinion of this show. To watch KK and say that incest is ok if you're both consentual is a joke. This show isn't representative of 99.99% of all sibling relationships. It just seems more truthful and honest to me to say that the characters in Koi Kaze, given their very specific and rare circumstances, are, in your opinion, star-crossed lovers who you hope would get together, even though they are siblings... than it is to say that you'd like to see them get together because you're ok with incest in general. To say that, without any caveats, implies a sort of blind acceptance of incest, which would be, in all honesty, a very complex subject emotionally for those involved (and all those who are around them). I mean, what do you do if you break up? if you have a fight? What do your parents do if you have a fight and break up? You've suddenly just destroyed your own family. Family is, at it's best, about non-judgemental accepting love. When you throw sex into that mix it would make things very, very complicated. If having sex with someone was only about sharing good feelings with that person, and didn't include any other issues re: emotional attachment, people would be having sex with anyone. But instead, sex makes lots of things complicated. Family is already a complicated issue. Putting them together would be, to me,.... not a good idea, in the long run. Perhaps others see otherwise, but I haven't actually heard anyone say why they think incest is ok, or who have actually given any retorts to these sorts of issues that I've brought up before in this thread, and as such, it isn't really much of a conversation. People just show up and say "The government really shouldn't decide what's ok for me" or "Incest, like all things, should get decided on a case by case basis" or "I'm ok with incest, if the participants are ok." But that's really not saying much. It's not responding to any of the real issues involved here. Look-- if you say "Incest should get decided on a case by case basis", but then you say that the participants in that type of relationship should be of equal age, should not be minors, should be consentual, and should not really have any relationship like siblings, then that's like saying you basically don't agree with incest, but can appreciate what's going on in the very specific example of Koi Kaze, as per what I said in the earlier paragraph. If you say that "the government shouldn't make things illegal for me", that's fine too-- but it doesn't really give me your opinion re: incest. For all I know, you might prefer to not have the government involved, but still don't agree with incest. And if you say, "I'm ok with incest as long as it's consentual" that doesn't really give me any real reasons why you think it's ok, there are no retorts there. Until someone is able to give that retort, they should just say that they like Koi Kaze, think it's a shame their siblings, think they should or shouldn't be together anyways because of their extenuating (spelling?) circumstances, and leave it at that. It's a little aggravating when people such as myself go through all the trouble of actually trying to engage in a real, honest, civil conversation about a subject as complicated and taboo as incest, giving examples and a detailed analysis of why we think incest is generally not a very good idea, and then we are ignored. If you want to just say that incest is kewl, that's fine, but then it's not really a discussion-- just a lot of people saying what they think without any real explanation or attempt to understand the details of the subject. |
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hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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I am not specifically talking about this relationship, so age itself is not a factor in what I'm on about.
This is a good point. Incest between either a matriarchial or Patriarchial figure and their children isn't an acceptable thing, mainly because of the added age gap issues and the ability of a parent to influence a child makes it too much like...grooming. How would I feel if it happened in my own family? I can't say, I never got that far. If I met two people who were then I certainly don't feel anything wrong with them. (at least I don't feel anything now, I've yet to meet a couple who are openly incestuous so I can't say for certain how I'd feel if I did)
fair enough, but pretty much no one where I live (the UK) and hence the majority of people I know feel strongly anti or pro feelings. By and large people I know are largely apathetic on most issues.
I never said real life incest is harmless. I said that if two people have a consenting relationship the other factors shouldn't matter as they should have already considered them before consenting(otherwise it's not a real consenting relationship is it?). I do agree if a relationship is harmful in a real way (potential break ups don't count) then it shouldn't be encouraged in the first place. But I don't think anyone else should get involved in something like this, who are you to say that these two people are having a 'wrong' relationship and then forcefully seperating them? On a great many issues I, and those with whom I often interact, take a partially apathetic view. If what two people are doing hurts only them (and others who invest themselves in the situation...you don't have to involve yourself do you?) then why should I interfere? I heard a good quote, I don't know who said it but it expresses my feelings on this and other issues. 'People would rather be free than happy' if these people want this relationship then let them, as long as they chose it and it's not harmful to others in the process then who are we to say that they are wrong? Steve Berry:- you raise an excellent point with the potential harm that this kind of relationship could cause to a family group. But the chances of this kind of relationship forming in a closer family group than that in Koi Kaze (whole family lives together, undivorced etc) would develop with the whole group knowing about it (at least partially) and likely these factors would be part of the whole 'consenting' issue. Families themselves split apart from many things, it could simply be that two members don't like each other and it spirals from there, marrying into different cultures, divorces, disabilities, genetic problems, etc all have these potential problems though and chances are you wouldn't raise it as an issue if someone married into a different culture would you? Essentially my argument lies on the word 'consenting' for a relationship to be properly consenting I feel that the parties involved must actually understand the factors, what could or could not happen etc or at least have a basic understanding of it. Not necessarily sit down and be all calculating about nit but they must have addressed these kinds of issues within themsevles and with their partner(s?). They must decide if the potential for harm is worth it for their circumstances. Only then can it really be a fully 'consenting' relationship. Clearly this requires those involved to be relatively intellegent (as intellegent as the average person anyway, someone with a mental condition that actually affects this kind of decision is a more 'grey' area) and relatively experienced with real life. As to Koi Kaze and age...Can you REALLY fall in love that young or in that short a time span? While I admit I married young I knew her in an emotional relationship for 4 years beforehand. It wasn't a short while whirlwind romance with eventual regrets. (I regret nothing except I couldn't stop what happened. I would have done nothing differently...well nothing serious anyway) So yes I am all for any fully consenting relationship regardless of the factors as long as it meets my standards of consenting and doesn't actively harm those around the relationship (unless those around actually invest themselves in the relationship). So if someone makes an informed choice they should live with it and we shouldn't interfere. |
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mushino
Posts: 7 |
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Incest: The game the whole family can play!
And some people ought to take themselves less seriously. I mean it, I'm going through these posts just seeing people repeat themselves ad nauseum. It's boring. |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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nice mushino-- great addition to the conversation.
hentai4me-- most of what you're saying sounds fine to me (not that that should really matter to anyone but me....)-- mostly because, as I said in my post, you've got a few.... "restrictions" about how you think about incest. I suppose my opinion isn't so different from yours, now that we're both spelling things out more clearly-- if two consenting adults, who happen to be siblings, want to have a sexual relationship, knowing full well the very very serious familial ramifications going on... then sure, power to 'em. It's not really my business. Generally speaking though, I don't think incest is a good practice, I wouldn't do it myself, nor would I want anyone I know personally or am emotionally tied to to practice it. Does that mean I think incest is ok? Or not ok? To me, that means I don't support it-- perhaps to others that means the opposite. That may be what is going on between the two of us in this conversation. It seemed to me though, that there were others, previously, who didn't explain their positions as thouroughly as you did. Whatever. It really isn't any of my business I suppose, what others think and post on this board-- but it just seemed like such a loaded topic that someone ought to post something that really looked at the real, honest, complex ramifications of being incestuous. That just didn't seem to be going on here before. :¯\_(ツ)_/¯: |
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mushino
Posts: 7 |
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Take yourself less seriously, okay? Son: Mommy, Mommy! What's an Oedipus complex? Mother: Shut up and kiss me! |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Whatever.
You've made 3 posts here, and this is what you have to offer? Look, if you don't find the subject interesting, or find us annoying, don't post in the thread. It's easy. |
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mushino
Posts: 7 |
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Actually, I would like to talk about Koi Kaze and that specific case, but instead you and the other guy are going off on a morality tangent about incest which I find mundane, boring and cliche. I already know what the mainstream think about it. Incest = teh bad. There's no need to reiterate every page.
I made more than 3 posts, but I am using a new name since I tired of my old handle.
Actually, it's funny that people consider incest so bad because humans are one of the most inbred species around. Marrying your own cousin wasn't all that uncommon until the late 19th early 20th century. Incest has a basis in genetic sexual attraction. But scientists recently discovered that people are least likely to mate with or marry with the people they grew up with. This is not only to do with families, but also in communes and kibbutz where nonrelated people are close as children. Koi Kaze presents the situation in such a way that it gets around the repulsion (growing up apart) and presenting the genetic sexual attraction side of it. I would think that would be most of it, because honestly, Koshiro isn't that much of a catch, to be honest. |
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daxomni
Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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I guess I never got the memo that explains why anime fans are so forgiving of taboo relationships like incest and loli. Then when a guy who used to be a father chimed in with similarly alternative views, well, I couldn't help but ask what the hell was going on. No other forum I've ever been too has such a blasé attitude toward such off-center views. I'm not sure when or why anime fandom and ultra-alternative viewpoints merged, but it strikes me as something rather odd and none of the answers I've received so far has explained it to my satisfaction. Also, did most folks with alternative views become anime lovers, or did most anime lovers become folks with alternative views? |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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erm...so. I find discussions about the psychological aspects of Evangelion boring and cliche. I dont reply to post about them (anymore). Steve, Daxomni and I are having a seperate but still on topic discussion which we consider a worthwhile topic to discuss. All you need do is post something on topic which you want to discuss rather than start making stupid posts about what we are on about.
I think the whole satisfaction is difficult to get across in almost any medium. For me to actually convince you to accept my viewpoint is difficult in the best of circumstances...to do it on the internet is almost impossible. Do you at least accept that if people are fully 'consenting' (as I've explained it rather than just making a snap decision) then they should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't harm those around them? (again if someone else gets themselves involved thats their own look out) As for the greater acceptance of these kinds of issues I thnk it's probably a combination of factors. 1) anime tends to cover things that mainstream media doesn't 2) most anime fans are teens to twenties and I find these kinds of people are more likely to question the world around them than the younger or older age groups. 3) this forum has a well controlled and mature (in general) userbase and so people are more willing to engage in these kinds of discussions here than elsewhere 4) this is the internet, annonymity coupled with these kinds of issues leads to people being more willing to be non-PC and say what they really want to say. I feel very strongly that in a free society people should be able to do what they want, say what they want and be what they want as long as it doesn't prevent others around them from doing the same. This priviledge comes with the responsibility of the people being educated well enough to make these kinds of decisions from an informed standpoint. Wether modern society actually meets this or not doesn't prevent me from wishing it to be true. I'm not saying that I would partake in this myself or encourage others to do so and I can't say how I would feel if it were to happen within my own family as it never has and most likely never will have the opportunity to. When you face what I did you tend to get philosophical and think about all manner of things and you come to your own conclusions. I don't like to be a hypocrite and so if I feel that homo sexuals should have equal rights then shouldn't others with sexual deviancies too? We're going to have to accept that each of us has a different viewpoint as we both have different experiences and we have both come to our own conclusions. Further to me what I have typed makes perfect sense (I did type it after all so I know what I mean) but due to the nature of this kind of thing it's very hard to convince someone else with a different viewpoint. Anyway this is what it boils down to. You see a happy couple, they clearly love each other and live a normal life (perhaps they have moved away from their other family, perhaps not) they may or may not have a child, perhaps they adopt or perhaps they have a surrogate or perhaps they have one of their own. You then suddenly find out they are cousins/brother/sister (but not parents/children...again the potential for grooming makes it much more likely it wont be an acceptably consentual relationship) do you shun them? Do you forcefully seperate them? Do you think 'I wouldn't do that but it doesn't affect me so I don't care' or perhaps another option? I wouldn't encourage incest and would probably try my best to prevent those of my family from doing it, but if they actually decided to despite this and go into the relationship with their eyes open then I feel they have the right to do it. |
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aya_honda
 Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
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There are still many genetic illnesses that can't be cured yet and it will take who knows how much more time just to make sure the most simple ones are being cured (if there's such a thing as a simple illness that can be cured). There are many genetic illnesses that are transmitted from generation to generation without any possibility of avoiding its apparition. It's seems to be impossible to cure some genetic illnesses especially because they have the random appartion. Now as to whether we accept the incest or not.... As I said before, I can't accept it in real life. You gave the example of the couple that we might know and like before fiding out that they have a blood relation... It's very easy to talk about such a topic when none of us has actually been confronted in real life with such a couple. I at least have not met people that have such a relationship (as far as I know) and it's very easy in this case to say whether it is accepted or not. Koi Kaze has told the story of incest in a very gentle way and even more interesting, in a neutral manner. It seems to be quite an appealing story but when thinking at this story in real terms, I'm not sure if I would accept such a thing. Why being hypocritical about it? While, unquestionably I approve other types of relationships like the homosexual ones, I wouldn't or I couldn't accept such a story in real life. So I agree with Steve Berry who better explianed my thoughts about this topic. Thank you, Steve! After reading your post, I realised you expresed better my ideas about Koi Kaze than I would have ever done. (all those courses of creative writing didn't work for me after all; well, that's life!) 
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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Actually, there was a whole lot of discussion going on about incest (as a general practice) long before either of us took part in the discussion-- I never felt like we "de-railed" the discussion going on about KK-- the discussion has always been about incest, IMO. As for my arguements being cliche or boring, I can't say. However, I don't think any of us has really said something as simple as "incest= teh bad", as you put it-- just that to go around saying you're ok with incest is a very bold thing to say, without any discussion about it. To me, half of the reason I wrote my post was because I thought people ought to be talking more specifically about their opinions of the very specific situation in KK, rather than their broader opinions re: incest in general (just as you are suggesting you'd like to be doing yourself). If you weren't able to get that from my post, I'm sorry. Of course, it's ironic that you almost immediately dive into the discussino re: incest as a practice, in general, after giving me grief over that exact point in your own post--
I don't think anyone's really talked about marrying your cousins in this thread. Genetics hasn't really come up. The point has largely been about incest within your family, and how that pans out-- mostly, incest that would be similar to what's going on in KK, since we've been trying to keep it on topic. As for this statement
it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Can you explain yourself further?? Are you saying that incest happens because we are attracted to those of us who share similar genetic makeup? Or are you talking about not wanting to have relationships with those we are really close to emotionally? I'm just not really sure what you're trying to say. Do these sentences have an arguement binding them together that I'm just not seeing? I don't want to get into an arguement or anything-- I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.
On this, I agree-- and I think that's what makes the show intersting. |
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daxomni
Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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Despite my ranting on a few specific subjects, I'm actually a very liberal guy on the whole and I strongly support the concept that so-called victimless crimes should generally not be considered crimes at all. However, that doesn't mean I think that every possible act allowed by law should be acted upon just because it won't land you in jail.
I think points 1 & 4 carry the most weight. 2 & 3 seem a bit too subjective IMO.
Even though I'm not gay I still don't see it as being terribly deviant. As long as we're talking about two consenting adults of sound body and mind then I'm generally cool with almost anything people happen to be into. However, there are still some relationships I would not support, even when two mature adults are involved. A boss who enters into a relationship with a subordinate, or a psychiatrist who enters into a relationship with a patient, or a parent who enters into a relationship with their adult offspring is still acting well outside the realm of legitimate morality in my view.
Having alternative views is fine. If you're into some form of truly deviant behavior, then so be it. I do not support the concept of thought crimes and so long as you never act on any of it then you should not be prosecuted for any of it. However, as you can probably tell from my previous posts, I simply cannot stand it when people act like it's not even an issue. If you're going to harbor the desires of a deviant, then at least admit that there is a risk that you might one day choose to act on those desires. Also, if your desires do not extend outside the realm of deviant behavior, then at least admit that you're potentially painting yourself into a corner. A deviant who either has no interest in non-deviant behavior or who cannot participate in non-deviant behavior due to lack of social skills or other disability will likely live a life of unfulfilled desires or a life of guilt from having realized their desires. What kind of life is that?
In the one very specific example of two brother/sister/cousins that entered into their relationship as mature adults I do not have any particular desire to legally prevent or break up their relationship. However, in nearly every other instance of incest I would be against it, especially when a parent was involved. Thus, as a rule I'm still against incest since the situations where I would not be against it are so limited and presumably unlikely. |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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certainly, just because you can doesn't mean you should. But it's up to the individual to decide wether they should or should not.
while homosexuality is not particularly deviant it is different from the norm hence being classed as deviant. Just because adults are 'mature' doesn't mean whatever they do is acceptable. In the case of a parent and a child it's obvious that if the parent is harbouring sexual thought towards their child they have it easily within their power to 'groom' the child into the relaitonship hence maing it 'unconsenting'. With the psychiatrist again they have such potential control over their own patients that it can't realistically be 'consenting'. Boss or subordinate is more questionable, because it could be that neithe of them is looking to gain from the relationship in a carrer sense so thats more to do with the circumstances. If the boss is using his power to threaten the employee into it then no.
True, these kinds of things are issues. I think that I've demonstrated that I have considered this as an issue and come to my own conclusions.
How can you really control your desires though? If you really do love your sister/brother/cousin in a sexual sense then there's not really much you can do about it is there?
I agree on the parental side as I've explained above. I feel that as long as the relationship has been entered into by people making an informed choice who have considered both the positives and negatives then I can't really harbour any kind of ill sentiment towards them and so I don't. I think we agree in a general sense on most issues like this. Maybe not this one specifically but we do at least understand where we each come from, no? |
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mushino
Posts: 7 |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction All life is most attracted to reproducing with like members, that is how anything evolve, because it allows species to branch off easily. In nature, the thing keeping brother/sister from breeding is the Westermarck effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_%28psychology%29#Westermarck_effect Notice the Westermarck effect extend beyond relations and can effect your impression of anybody you grew up closely with. This has been scientifically studied in communes/kibbutzes where children growing up closely together rarely marry or even date once they are of age. In any case, the westermarck effect rendered useless in Koi Kaze by the seperation of Koshiro and Nanoka early in their lives. |
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