Forum - View topicNEWS: Bandai Cracks Down on Bootleggers at Anime Expo
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Kazuki-san
 Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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I feel sorry for the small players too, but that's the way the whole nation is going. Wal-mart and those kinda stores are shutting down mom and pop stores all the time, it's not confined to just anime. I can appreciate him not making enough money on his domestic dvds, but that doesn't mean that it becomes ok to sell boots. I do wish the best for him though.
Well that depends on if you're trying to lump all anime together or not. One single anime series would almost certainly make more over there than it does here, but probably nowhere near what even the worst hollywood movie makes. It also depends on if you are speaking of just the series itself, or all the extras such as toys, apparel, etc. From what I have heard, the reason they charge what they do for the license is because that is how they primarily make money in the deal. Everything they get after the license is a very small amount. But in any case, the US companies can't make the Japanese charge less for a series, so if they want to bring it here, they have to pay the price, and so they have to pass that price onto us somehow so that they will not lose money. I don't see what the fuss is about with having to wait a couple of days to get a dvd. If you want it badly enough they have express and overnight shipping, of course you will pay more. I don't know of any site that gives you overnight or 2nd day shipping for free on anything. I buy computer parts online, but I don't get them next day unless I pay for it. It's not like the anime sites are having a conspiracy to keep people from getting their orders sooner or anything. |
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Abel
 Posts: 143 Location: AnimeTen.com |
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I know of one anime business that started out by slashing prices and only making about 5% margin on their items. Many of these items were imported. While his sales were good initially he did not get the return business he desired and soon he began to choke when he had to restock. His expenses started to catch up to him and he eventually was never able to restock. He ended up going bankrupt. Animate USA in Los Angeles suffered with poor planning even though they tried to drop the market value of anime goods here. Movic refused to listen to me that they could not succeed with how they planned the store or with their pricing. They felt they could dominate the market they way they have in Japan. Anime is a small niche and I have long catered to the smaller niche that is the elite fan. I have found that if you stand by your service and have good quality products, the fan base will appreciate it. You can not go hog wild and fight a price war by whoring yourself and win. There are only survivors whom have to lick their wounds. The dot com bubble is an example of this. I would not be able to expand on the series we offered or offer new items if we were not able to profit from the sales of items and use that profit to expand. It gets to me that profit seems to be evil when consumers think about it. I doubt most people would take a pay cut as their way of giving their employer a discount on their wages so that their products or services can be cheaper. Some other employers now go overseas for cheaper labor. Hey though... it's ok cause you can get that product cheaper now. Last edited by Abel on Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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xxmiyuxx
 Posts: 109 Location: Bordentown, NJ |
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The choice between legal and bootleg to me is simple. I choose to legally purchase my anime because I want to ensure that I will still have anime to buy. If we aren't supporting these companies by purchasing them...then they will close. No more anime for me. Every time I purchase legally, it's like saying, "please make more".
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TiredGamer
 Posts: 246 Location: Florida |
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Yeah, ADV used the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), which is really good in these circumstances as it allows a company to just send a complaint to a site/host instead of filing one in court. As for whether this site will adhere, they've gotten a reputation as being kinda flakey... but we'll see. Their willingness to host trackers for "groups" that just rip off the domestic DVDs doesn't endear them much. 
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TiredGamer
Posts: 246 Location: Florida |
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FYI, but Kenshin is availible in two boxsets that capture most of the manga storyline as covered in the anime. Viz recently announced the first of many Inuyasha boxsets as well. And if you can't buy today, why not save for tomorrow? These goods are not going to disappear forever. Also important to note is that you're not being asked to spend a week's pay. The release schedule assures you can save your nickles and dimes. And if that doesn't satisfy, then be patient and a boxset or rerelease will appease your desire for 50-75% price reductions per disc. First releases are usually aimed at the impatient buyers and the curious mainstream to begin with. And if THAT doesn't satisfy, join an anime club or form one yourself. There's really no "reason" to buy bootlegs other than you don't want to pay the reasonable cost. |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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Naturally, you can't argue with vending machines; they won't accept anything less than the listed price, no matter how thirsty you look.. but that aside: Sure. Go to a farmer's market and ask for eggs at a discount. If you buy them (or offer to buy more with the discount) you'll probably get it. It CERTAINLY can be done. From personal experience, I've done it before with electronics, computer equipment, games and more, from major retail stores (Sears, Radio Shack, K.B. Toys), mom-and-pop stores (the local computer store) and anime-selling companies (various vendors at cons). You can go to a car dealer, and offer less-than-sticker price and you'll probably get a discount (or they might even accept your offer). If you're in the market for a new home, you can usually knock thousands of dollars off the market price if you inquire properly. The important thing is that you have to find someone who has the authority to make sales for less than what's being offered, and deal directly with them. The cashier usually won't want to (or can't) authorize those kinds of sales, so it's not worth talking to them. Knowledge of the price of what you're going after is important, too, as well as a rough idea of what the mark-up of the store typically is. It also helps to know what the store's sales patterns are. If you walk in and want to buy a PS2 at a discount, and they've sold several per day at the full price, it'll be harder to wrangle the price than if those same PS2s have been sitting there for two weeks, untouched. |
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Abel
Posts: 143 Location: AnimeTen.com |
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Perhaps a better example I should have provided in the first part would have been to haggle with a concession stand the price of a soda and a hot dog or haggle with the registration staff at a con about discounting addmission (or concert or sports event). The examples provided in the previous post are businesses that normally ask for the SRP on their goods and most of the time they are willing to match competitor's prices.
If a fan asks me to match the price of a domestic manga or DVD at an event to a lower price that another vendor requests I have no problem with it at all. It is after all a domestic item and I did not travel over 10,000 miles and have to deal with the expense of importing the item into this country to the event. Quite often due to lower production runs in Japan I can not easily restock the same item again at times. Since I put effort in obtaining said item I have no problem keeping the item if someone refuses to pay the requested price. It's also a curse since I am a fan and I do not mind buying it for myself as well. I don't really have many fans ask for "deals". Heck many of them at AX were extremely happy that our booth had Ragnarok Online character goods which were signable. None asked for a deal. We even had the anime shitajiki which was supposed to be out the 2nd of July. I love that the fans were excited and appreciative. It reminds me of why I love to do what I do. When one fan buys a bunch of items I feel that if I lower a price for another fan that is buying one item I am disrespecting the fan that paid full price and bought a lot. This is why I have a frequent buyer program online and one in development for cons. I try to treat everyone fairly. I wish haggling would work on other venues. I would love to haggle on the taxes I owe, advertising rates, or the cost of a stamp. Would it be proper for me to haggle with ANN and ask if the monthly advertising rates are written in stone or if they be negotiated? "Can I get a better deal without having to pay for more months in advance?" I doubt it. The rates are reasonable and there is already a discount offered for buying time in bulk. However would not ANN feel a bit insulted? I just feel that some things should be haggled and others should not. Ultimately it comes up to how much of a markup the item in question has. Computers generally have a 9% markup but the software and games has a much larger mark up. Eggs at a farmers market can be negotiated since it is a smaller enterprise and the person who can approve the discount is there. Not as easy at a normal supermarket. The mark up on some other items is significant however and the profit permits them to stock items with a smaller margin and pay for expenses. Radio Shack, Sears, J.C. Penny's and K.B Toys have larger mark ups on their items and there is room for negotiation with some sales reps. I have gone to Circut City, Best Buy and Fry's with prices on components or items I have wanted to purchase and because they have price matching polices I am able to negotiate a better price. Again these are domestic, easily restockable items that there is constant competition for. However these business do not really serve a niche market like anime as a specialty vendor would. I often tell fans to get the best deal possible and they should look for two of three things. Quality, Service and Value. While we may not be the cheapest on the block with say... DVD we do maintain decent quality product and service. Take DeepDiscountDVD. They offer great prices, good quality product but if you need service good luck. Yet vendors like AnimeNation and AnimeCorner can still sell their DVD at higher prices then DDD. Why? If I sold bootlegs items and got wallscrolls for $4 and CD for $1 I could have a higher markup on the items and I would also be in a much better position to offer "deals". I have a harder time offering a "deal" if I get a Japanese scroll for $15.00 and ask $22.50 for it. It does not matter to the fan if I had to pay shipping and duty for the item. It's too expensive compared to a legitimate Great Eastern one what wholesales for about $10 and has an SRP of 14.99 then say the bootleg which is $4.00. and sells for $14.99 or more. If you think about it whom is ripping off whom? Should not the fans get a CD for a much better deal then the $15 the fake CD sells for? A department store can get a pair of pants for a production cost of $2.00 and sell them for $45.00 thus making it easy for them offer a "Big Sale!" which consumers can save 50% of their price. I wish anime goods had that kind of cost. However in reality they do not. I don't really wish to discuss haggling though in this thread as I would really prefer to stay on the topic of Bandai finally taking care of business. 
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somedude67
Posts: 9 |
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Actually that is not completely correct anime is created for the Japanese market. What is popular is Japan is what is made. If we like it after it has made its run in Japan then if companies here in America feel that it is marketable then they will sell it. The Japanese will continue to make anime for their people whether we buy it or not. |
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Alias
Posts: 33 |
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Cracking down on bootlegger should also start during custom inspection so that U.S. companies and stores cannot import illegal copies that are made mostly from Hong Kong, Taiwan, China, Malaysia, etc.
U.S. custom should be given a list of item that infringes on coyright. And cease bootleg products before it enters U.S. markets. I know that it's troublesome, but it will at least stop a domino effect that will eventually kill the entire economy. I not speaking just anime stuff, it's everything. |
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Abel
Posts: 143 Location: AnimeTen.com |
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Bootleggers are smart about how they ship the items. It is not just a matter of US customs but Customs in Canada and Mexico. They have to be aware and educated on what to look for. When US Customs was stopping packages from Hong Kong and Taiwan due to Pokemon bootleg, the bootleggers started shipping the items from locations in Japan. Customs would not inspect a shipment from Japan for Pokemon bootleg the same as they would from Hong Kong/Taiwan. It will not be an easy task. |
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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Indeed, however I believe the point was the if the selling of boots could hurt companies enough that they all stopped licensing anime in the US, then the only source of anime for us would be fansubs and boots. And if that was the case, you could bet that the prices of boots would be a lot more than they are now. |
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nagash
Posts: 280 |
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Bandai's actually been cracking down for a while, but the stories I heard made them sound like a bunch of thugs when trying to shut down a bootleger. What made it worse is that Bandai was going after suspects with no proof when they started.
I remember talking to a guy at a convention that had unlicensed material. By that I mean that the anime he was selling at the time was not licensed by any American companies (which won't get you in trouble from an American compay, but you'll still have to worry about the Japanese company coming after you). He was very good at keeping track of who owned what and pulled the anime as soon as it was picked up by an American distributor, thus keeping his business as legit as possible. Bandai didn't like it (he was carrying Gundam long before Bandai bought it). One day, two people from Bandai show up at a smaller con he was set up at. They pulled the classic bad guy/good guy routine where one guy acts as a thug and the other acts as a reasonable guy. The thug, naturally, threatened him with physical abuse if he kept selling Bandai material. I say this to Bandai out of concern for your employees: bad move. Don't threaten a shop owner, for it does not bode well for business, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find out one or more of your thugs wound up impaled on something or worse. The shopkeeper in question, thankfully, kept his cool, flipped off the thug, turned his laptop around and told the Bandai guys to show him the proof they held the rights, which would be posted on-line. Another point to make: if you're interested in buying and don't have the rights yet, you can't complain. Buy the rights first, then go after the bootlegers. If the guy is still selling the anime after you've bought it, then you've got your case. Until then, you really can't do much about him. I am happy to hear Bandai has apparently cleaned up their act and is going after people in a more reasonable fashion now. Will it make much of an impact, though? Hard to say right now. The problem is that it's just as likely that other companies will pop up to take the place of the companies that got busted. How many do you have to bust to before they get the message? A point I'd like to make about companies selling merchandise at anime conventions. I was at AB this year and I noticed something so painfully obvious I gaped when I saw it. I didn't notice any bootlegs, although I wasn't really looking for them. I walked around and looked at what everyone had and finally spotted the guy in the left corner. Upscale businessman, dressed more sharply than anyone else and an air of arrogance that you could cut with a knife. He had a serious problem and he must have known it the minute he walked in to set up because he only looked more and more angrier as the weekend went on. If you are planning on setting up at an anime con I highly suggest that you scout the local anime stores and check out their prices. Do not do what the guy I'm describing did. His primary product was animation cells. Problem is, before him, I've never seen a cell go for $1000 or more. I've seen them go for $500, but never more. HIs othe rproducts consisted of figures and plushies. He never checked who was going to be there and never scouted. His asking price for any item on his table was at least $5 more than anyone else in the dealers room, including myself! A case in point was a tiny set of Gatchaman figures (think lego versions) that he wanted $20 for. I was selling them for $15 at the shows I did. Needless to say, he did not make much money if he sold anything at all. Do your research if you're going to do a convention, please. |
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Retro Anime Podcast
Posts: 5 |
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The bootleggers have shown that American anime licensees are greedy. I agree that there is some rubbish boots out there but there is also alot of very good quality stuff as well.
I admit that I own alot of boots, and I have to admit I would rather not, but there is not a great deal of anime released in the UK and boots is often the easiest to get it and the fact I absolutely refuse to buy 6 or 8 discs with only 3 or 4 episodes per disc for a series like Evangelion for example when bootleggers have shown that use can easily fit 7,8,9 episodes on a DVD with absolutely no loss of quality. A good example over here is that Gundam Wing was released on 10 discs (like in the US), but after poor sales, it has now been released on 6, why couldn't they have done that in the first place, more people would have bought it. To me that is just plain greed and and the licensees are milking the market because they know they can. I love anime with a passion and have done for the last 25 years, but it is just too expensive, and currently the DVD's that are sold are not good value compared to other stuff sold on DVD. I think the likes of Bandai and ADV are their own worst enemies sometimes and are driving people to boots. I think its about time they woke up and realised that alot of people think they are ripped off. The the legit stuff was was more reasonable then people wouldn't feel the need to buy boots. |
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Nagisa
Moderator
 Posts: 6128 Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh |
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How?
So would you rather domestic distributors put 7 episodes per disc on all releases and not have the money to license half the titles they do now? Would you rather there only be maybe twenty or thirty anime titles commercially available outside of Japan instead of hundreds? Anime is still a tiny niche market around the world, and the companies distributing it reflect that with the fact that they have to release anime like this in order to stay in business. If you'll notice, as anime's increased in popularity in recent years, the number of discs per series has decreased? Last year, a 26-episode series was almost always being released over eight volumes. This year it's between six and seven volumes. As the companies are reaching better financial stability, they're able to put more episodes per disc and inevitably lower the price we fans have to pay. The more commercially successful anime is, the more episodes ADV, Geneon, etc. will put per disc.
Because Bandai's anime DVD division wasn't as big back then as it is now. It needed the profits from stretching the series out to stay alive. Maybe if they did put it over six volumes it would have sold, maybe it wouldn't. But remember, anime was still very much a fledgling market in this country when Wing was "big," so the fact that it didn't sell could also be contributed to the fact that an anime that was a "big success" back then still didn't amount to squat.
Or because ADV isn't Columbia Tristar, and isn't able to release full seasons in single collections right off the bat because the low profits on their end would lead to financial ruin.
So you turn to bootlegs, which are almost always inferior in translation, video, & audio quality to the domestic releases? I'm confused...
Even with three episodes per DVD, we're getting almost twice the deal the Japanese are. Anyway, check my earlier observation that distributors are slowly putting more episodes per disc as they turn a greater profit. Within the next couple years (assuming certain people don't keep spreading boots around and allow the "bad bad evil Mordor people at ADV & Bandai" to make some damn money), I'd expect a 26-episode series to span four or five discs easy and a 13-episode series to span three...even only two. Any niche market has to start somewhere. If all the domestic distributors started off by releasing all their series in one or two-volume collections like the larger motion picture studios do for the likes of Stargate SG-1 & X-Files, ADV, Geneon, AnimEigo, etc. wouldn't even be around today. They had to "rip us off" because that was how they gained enough money to stay afloat while anime took hold outside of Japan. As it gains a firm hold in the market, they gain a firm hold financially, and they're able to cut us a better deal. Give it time. You're riding the edge of a growing market and impatience (as seen in bootleg fanboys and fansub supremacists) will only slow or damage progress. |
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Dejiko
 Posts: 276 Location: Holland (between Great Britain and Germany) |
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Oh, if I didn't pay a penny for my source materials, I'd probabely could even make you a better deal. Stealing is cheaper, but it won't make things last. In fact, the more bootleg bloodsuckers play parasite to people who actually have the decency to buy anime, the harder it will be to keep the industry alive. Anime IS often expensive and a luxury product, but the reason for this is that it IS a costly product to make and license. If 3-4 episodes per DVD at a good price point ensures future quality anime, I'll be more than happy to pay for it. That way, both you and I can look forward to more good releases... so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop mooching off other people's money, thank you very much. Or did you think your precious HK pirates are contributing to anything else, except their own fat wallet? Watching anime is not your god given right and it doesn't justify your behaviour of buying boots at all. I have absolutely no respect for 'fans' who advocate piracy, but obviously don't understand the very basics of real-life (DVD) business at all. And as for your idea of '9 episodes on a DVD with absolutely no loss of quality', I passed that one around the office and we had a good laugh. Thanks! 
Last edited by Dejiko on Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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