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Puella Magi Madoka Magica (TV + movies).

spoiler[Homura's time travel and Madoka's wish may have resulted in multiple universes, or may have reset/altered the current universe. I actually think it was the latter, so I disagree with Veers here. But I don't think it matter much for the purpose of this particular discussion.]

spoiler[Homura retains her powers, as well as her memories. Why? Well, because the nature of her wish already made her an existence outside the normal flow of time and the universe. Homura's wish allowed her to reset time/go to a new universe where Madoka had never died. Regardless of which, she was suddenly in a place where Madoka had never died, thus, the reason she made her wish no longer existed.

And yet, she still had her powers, and her memories. Because that was required by her wish. Her wish wasn't just to go back in time. It was to be able to go back in time as someone who could protect Madoka, and to do that, she had to remember why Madoka needed protection in the first place, and she had to have powers so that she could actually protect her. Homura's wish made herself a being that could retain memories of previous timelines and maintain her powers as a magical girl even when the event that gave her those powers in the first place no longer occurred in the current timeline. ]

And finally there's the whole thing where, you know, Kyoko's spoiler[self-sacrifice is the climax of her character development, the affirmation of their friendship ("greater love has no man than he lay down his life for his friend") AND an important foreshadowing of Madoka's wish.] In a way this may be the most important reason from the narrative standpoint (while the first two answer the question from a character standpoint).

If what you say is true, why is that a bad thing. It was stated by Kyuubi quite a while ago that Madoka's potential was so great that she might be able to do things like alter the very laws of the universe or become an all powerful goddess. So, why is spoiler[Madoka's wish doing something quite like that a dues ex machina?]

spoiler[The main cast are still magical girls, and some of them still know each other, because Magical girls still exist, they just work a bit differently now. Regardless, the people with both the potential and the desire to be Magical Girls are going to pretty much be the same people as before. Sayaka is still going to want to heal her friend, whether or not there are Witches to fight or not.]

spoiler[Homura retains her powers, as well as her memories. Why? Well, because the nature of her wish already made her an existence outside the normal flow of time and the universe. Homura's wish allowed her to reset time/go to a new universe where Madoka had never died. Regardless of which, she was suddenly in a place where Madoka had never died, thus, the reason she made her wish no longer existed.

And yet, she still had her powers, and her memories. Because that was required by her wish. Her wish wasn't just to go back in time. It was to be able to go back in time as someone who could protect Madoka, and to do that, she had to remember why Madoka needed protection in the first place, and she had to have powers so that she could actually protect her. Homura's wish made herself a being that could retain memories of previous timelines and maintain her powers as a magical girl even when the event that gave her those powers in the first place no longer occurred in the current timeline.]

spoiler[And so, perhaps with a little extra help from Madoka, Homura retained her memories even in the new universe Madoka created.]

Huh? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.spoiler[ Just because Magical Girls exist and fight majuu doesn't mean that every battle is going to go exactly how it did when they fought Witches. That makes no sense. Even when they fought the same Witches over and over again thanks to Homura's time travel, the battles sometimes went differently, so why would it be the same when they were fighting rather different beings?]

spoiler[I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say that, but... how do you know there aren't a crapload more Magical Girls? But actually, there shouldn't be a ton more, because Madoka's wish doesn't mean "Magical Girl who falls into despair and would normally turn into a Witch doesn't, instead she lives on and has a long life." It means "Magicial Girl who falls into despair and would normally turn into a Witch doesn't, instead Madoka takes on the corruption and the girl disappears."]

This is where a common misunderstanding of dues ex machina comes into play. A dues ex machina, despite it's name, does not mean "a godlike power solves the problem." It means a case where a power (godlike or otherwise), character, tool, etc, that was never established or hinted at in the story beforehand solves a problem. A dues ex machina doesn't have to even involve anything particularly godlike, the basic idea is that it's something that comes from nowhere and couldn't have been predicted beforehand.

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spoiler[Homura retains her powers, as well as her memories. Why? Well, because the nature of her wish already made her an existence outside the normal flow of time and the universe. Homura's wish allowed her to reset time/go to a new universe where Madoka had never died. Regardless of which, she was suddenly in a place where Madoka had never died, thus, the reason she made her wish no longer existed. And yet, she still had her powers, and her memories. Because that was required by her wish. Her wish wasn't just to go back in time. It was to be able to go back in time as someone who could protect Madoka, and to do that, she had to remember why Madoka needed protection in the first place, and she had to have powers so that she could actually protect her. Homura's wish made herself a being that could retain memories of previous timelines and maintain her powers as a magical girl even when the event that gave her those powers in the first place no longer occurred in the current timeline. ]

Thanks for articulating this for ChibiKangaroo et al. I wanted to but didn't have time to work it into my previous post.

I think the rest of the show was innovative, and the ending fell short of the expectations built up from that innovation.

[spoiler]I don't see how you can make this point while disregarding my point about spoiler[ Mami still being killed by a demon thing. You are saying here that everything would occur the same but just with demons rather than witches, but when I make the point about Mami dying you say "well maybe that would be different." ]

Mad_Scientist wrote:

If what you say is true, why is that a bad thing. It was stated by Kyuubi quite a while ago that Madoka's potential was so great that she might be able to do things like alter the very laws of the universe or become an all powerful goddess. So, why is spoiler[Madoka's wish doing something quite like that a dues ex machina?]

I don't think him hinting at the possibility totally fixes the problem of deus ex machina. It would be like if in the movie Titanic, one of the characters said that Leonardo de Caprio's character might suddenly become godlike and lift the ship out of the water and carry it to safety, and then if it actually happened people would simply say "Well, they indicated it might happen so, it's not a bad plot device." Just because the writers hint at something doesn't mean that it is a good thing to do story wise. Also, I said before, it's not that I found the ending offensive in some way, I just thought it was too easy, too safe, and something that is totally expected in a magical girl show. spoiler[ i.e. all comrades who were tragically killed or defeated come back to life, memories are wiped, and the earth-ending crisis is avoided at the last second by some sudden god-like power of the protagonist. The mere fact that this time around the writers hinted beforehand that Madoka might gain that god-like power doesn't make it suddenly new and innovative in the genre.] I think the rest of the show was innovative, and the ending fell short of the expectations built up from that innovation.

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spoiler[The main cast are still magical girls, and some of them still know each other, because Magical girls still exist, they just work a bit differently now. Regardless, the people with both the potential and the desire to be Magical Girls are going to pretty much be the same people as before. Sayaka is still going to want to heal her friend, whether or not there are Witches to fight or not.]

I don't see how you can make this point while disregarding my point about spoiler[ Mami still being killed by a demon thing. You are saying here that everything would occur the same but just with demons rather than witches, but when I make the point about Mami dying you say "well maybe that would be different." ]

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spoiler[Homura retains her powers, as well as her memories. Why? Well, because the nature of her wish already made her an existence outside the normal flow of time and the universe. Homura's wish allowed her to reset time/go to a new universe where Madoka had never died. Regardless of which, she was suddenly in a place where Madoka had never died, thus, the reason she made her wish no longer existed. And yet, she still had her powers, and her memories. Because that was required by her wish. Her wish wasn't just to go back in time. It was to be able to go back in time as someone who could protect Madoka, and to do that, she had to remember why Madoka needed protection in the first place, and she had to have powers so that she could actually protect her. Homura's wish made herself a being that could retain memories of previous timelines and maintain her powers as a magical girl even when the event that gave her those powers in the first place no longer occurred in the current timeline.]

There is good reasoning here but it still doesn't work. spoiler[ Homura's wish was born from Madoka's death at the hands of Walpurgis Night and her desire to protect her. However, remember that Homura never actually "saves" Madoka, she simply tries to keep Madoka from becoming a magical girl again and again, so Homura's wish is never actually completed in a manner which would cause an infinite time loop. (even when she and madoka kill Walpurgis Night, Madoka becomes a witch so she has to go back again). Thus, there is never an event which occurs which would cause Homura's wish to be nixed, EXCEPT Madoka's wish. Yes, Homura does exist outside of normal time to a certain degree because of her wish, but only so long as her wish is necessary to try to protect Madoka. Homura's wish can't cancel itself as long as Madoka is in danger of being killed by a witch or turn into a witch, and those two factors are present throughout the series until Madoka makes her own wish. Thus, Homura's wish should cancel once Madoka makes her wish. This was my point.]

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spoiler[And so, perhaps with a little extra help from Madoka, Homura retained her memories even in the new universe Madoka created.]

This I could accept, but again, it would be something unexplained and unexpected. If spoiler[ Madoka's god-like powers allowed her to specifically remove Homura from having her own wish nixed and place her back on Earth with her memories intact,] then that is what happened, but to me that is at a minimum somewhere in the realm of deus ex machina.

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Huh? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.spoiler[ Just because Magical Girls exist and fight majuu doesn't mean that every battle is going to go exactly how it did when they fought Witches. That makes no sense. Even when they fought the same Witches over and over again thanks to Homura's time travel, the battles sometimes went differently, so why would it be the same when they were fighting rather different beings?]

Addressed this above. You aren't being fair if you say things will happen the same in one aspect, but won't happen the same in another... unless, again, spoiler[ this is an unexpected outcome of Madoka's god-like powers.]

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spoiler[I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say that, but... how do you know there aren't a crapload more Magical Girls? But actually, there shouldn't be a ton more, because Madoka's wish doesn't mean "Magical Girl who falls into despair and would normally turn into a Witch doesn't, instead she lives on and has a long life." It means "Magicial Girl who falls into despair and would normally turn into a Witch doesn't, instead Madoka takes on the corruption and the girl disappears."]

I thought the old method was spoiler[ they turn into a witch once they run out of grief seeds that they gathered from witches. So that would by its nature ensure that there would be a steady stream of girls becoming witches and similar influx of new girls to fight the witches. However, if they no longer need the grief seeds just to survive, it seems likely that there would be a ton more of them still alive.]

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This is where a common misunderstanding of dues ex machina comes into play. A dues ex machina, despite it's name, does not mean "a godlike power solves the problem." It means a case where a power (godlike or otherwise), character, tool, etc, that was never established or hinted at in the story beforehand solves a problem. A dues ex machina doesn't have to even involve anything particularly godlike, the basic idea is that it's something that comes from nowhere and couldn't have been predicted beforehand.

From dictionary.com:
Deus ex machina
1. (in ancient Greek and Roman drama) a god introduced into a play to resolve the entanglements of the plot.
2. any artificial or improbable device resolving the difficulties of a plot.

I don't think the definition requires that it be something that was never hinted at or comes from completely out of nowhere, although those are probably common versions of it. It seems to me like its more just about #2 above.

It would be like if in the movie Titanic, one of the characters said that Leonardo de Caprio's character might suddenly become godlike and lift the ship out of the water and carry it to safety, and then if it actually happened people would simply say "Well, they indicated it might happen so, it's not a bad plot device." Just because the writers hint at something doesn't mean that it is a good thing to do story wise.

Also, I said before, it's not that I found the ending offensive in some way, I just thought it was too easy, too safe, and something that is totally expected in a magical girl show.

spoiler[Homura's wish was born from Madoka's death at the hands of Walpurgis Night and her desire to protect her. However, remember that Homura never actually "saves" Madoka, she simply tries to keep Madoka from becoming a magical girl again and again, so Homura's wish is never actually completed in a manner which would cause an infinite time loop. (even when she and madoka kill Walpurgis Night, Madoka becomes a witch so she has to go back again).] [...] Thus, Homura's wish should cancel once Madoka makes her wish. This was my point.

I thought the old method was spoiler[they turn into a witch once they run out of grief seeds that they gathered from witches. So that would by its nature ensure that there would be a steady stream of girls becoming witches and similar influx of new girls to fight the witches. However, if they no longer need the grief seeds just to survive, it seems likely that there would be a ton more of them still alive.]

@Veers I'll wait to comment on your theory regarding timelines till I re-watch the last episodes on crunchyroll with the official translation.

No, it's totally different than your Titanic example. Titanic is (at least hypothetically) a historical movie set in the real world where magic and the like do not exist. Madoka Magica is a supernatural fantasy where magic and miracles are core parts of it's premise.

Wait, since when do wishes get "canceled" out or anything like that?

Now, after doing this and using her powers to heal Kyosuke, do you believe that Sayaka would automatically lose all her healing powers?

Homura is somewhat unique compared to some Magical girls, in that she wished to have certain powers in order to be able to accomplish a specific goal, but I see no reason why succeeding in accomplishing that goal (if you even count the ending as such a thing) would automatically remove her powers.

Once again, I'm not sure where you're getting this whole "wish nixing" thing.

Generally speaking, for it to be "artificial or improbable", it needs to be something that was not clearly established as one of the defining premises of the story.

Boomerang Flash wrote:

Two questions: 1. Is there some place besides Crunchyroll that's streaming this? Crunchyroll is only up to episode 9, slightly ahead of the DVD/BD release

1. Not now, no.

2. Yes, mostly. This page in particular though is mostly spillover from the discussion about the ending that was spillover from the volume 2 review talkback. This is still kinda the go-to thread for Madoka discussion, though, so if you want to discuss the streaming/homevideo release then go for it!

My argument was always spoiler[ that only Madoka's wish would cancel Homura's in an alternate timeline/universe theory. Someone else introduced the idea of Homura's wish cancelling itself, and I was rebutting that based on the substance of the premise that it could cancel itself. Again, my main point is that I don't think that the final ending took place in an alternate timeline/universe, but that Madoka simply altered the current one. Homura's prior adventures on the other hand, I can accept those being alternate timelines.]

I don't agree with that. Something can be both artificial and improbable even if it was firmly established in the story. These are not antonyms to "established" or "defining premise." Much of what happens in anime is improbable and artificial. Whether or not it works well is more based on execution.

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

My argument was always spoiler[ that only Madoka's wish would cancel Homura's in an alternate timeline/universe theory. Someone else introduced the idea of Homura's wish cancelling itself, and I was rebutting that based on the substance of the premise that it could cancel itself. Again, my main point is that I don't think that the final ending took place in an alternate timeline/universe, but that Madoka simply altered the current one. Homura's prior adventures on the other hand, I can accept those being alternate timelines.]

So wait, this is ENTIRELY based on your (flawed, by the way) interpretation of how things should go, an interpretation I've seen exactly NOWHERE else ever (and consider how many pixels have been spilled in discussion of this show) and then complaining the show is not hewing to your interpretation? That makes no goddamn sense.

Homura spoiler[still has her powers and memories because its the exact same Homura as in every other timeline. She was PRESENT for Madoka becoming Madokami. She WITNESSED the destruction and rebirth of the universe (when Madoka destroyed Kriemhild Gretchen, creating a paradox that booted Madoka up to godhood) and was then returned to the normal universe. That is why Homura still has her memories and powers. ]

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. What do you mean by "this is ENTIRELY based on"? That particular argument spoiler[about it not being an alternate timeline was based on my point that in an alternate timeline, Homura's reason for becoming a magical girl never would have happened. This is pretty simple in my opinion. If you disagree with that point then you can say so, but simply saying it "makes no goddamn sense" isn't very convincing. Tell me how in an alternate timeline Homura would have still witnessed Madoka being killed by a witch? There is no possibility of it happening if Madoka erased all witches. That's why I was saying that it makes more sense for the final event to be in the same timeline as the last one, but with alterations. Are you arguing against that or something else? ]

This is all good and well, but the show doesn't explain why she was present and witnessed those things, if in fact this is an alternate timeline. Now, if you agree with me that it is not an alternate timeline, then maybe we could put that argument aside.

Will only go back over the biggest points in this post, these responses are getting too long lol.

Mad_Scientist wrote:

No, it's totally different than your Titanic example. Titanic is (at least hypothetically) a historical movie set in the real world where magic and the like do not exist. Madoka Magica is a supernatural fantasy where magic and miracles are core parts of it's premise.

I could use another example other than Titanic. I used that one simply because it was the first one that came to mind. Lets use another one. Say in Death Note, Ryuk had told Light at some point that maybe if Light ate a death note then just maybe he would become the god of the new world and all who opposed him would instantly die. Then say everything happens the same all the way up till the ending, then when he's about to lose he pulls out a Death Note and eats it and becomes the god of the new world, all his enemies die, and peace reigns throughout the land under his new order. I don't think many people would be satisfied with that ending, although some might.

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Wait, since when do wishes get "canceled" out or anything like that?

You might have forgot, but the discussion before was about spoiler[whether or not this was an alternate timeline/universe created by Madoka's wish or just an alteration of the current universe. The point I was making is that if it were an alternate timeline/universe, that would mean that the event which occurred to cause Homura to become a magical girl would never have happened due to Madoka's wish. Thus Homura would not be a magical girl. Thus, I was proving that its not an alternate timeline/universe. Then Veers or you, I forget who, said that if Madoka's wish could cancel Homura's wish, then that same logic would cause Homura's wish to cancel itself. Then I made my above argument to say that that is not the case. I know it gets confusing with such long posts lol.]

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Now, after doing this and using her powers to heal Kyosuke, do you believe that Sayaka would automatically lose all her healing powers? Homura is somewhat unique compared to some Magical girls, in that she wished to have certain powers in order to be able to accomplish a specific goal, but I see no reason why succeeding in accomplishing that goal (if you even count the ending as such a thing) would automatically remove her powers.

My argument was always spoiler[ that only Madoka's wish would cancel Homura's in an alternate timeline/universe theory. Someone else introduced the idea of Homura's wish cancelling itself, and I was rebutting that based on the substance of the premise that it could cancel itself. Again, my main point is that I don't think that the final ending took place in an alternate timeline/universe, but that Madoka simply altered the current one. Homura's prior adventures on the other hand, I can accept those being alternate timelines.]

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Once again, I'm not sure where you're getting this whole "wish nixing" thing.

see above

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Generally speaking, for it to be "artificial or improbable", it needs to be something that was not clearly established as one of the defining premises of the story.

I don't agree with that. Something can be both artificial and improbable even if it was firmly established in the story. These are not antonyms to "established" or "defining premise." Much of what happens in anime is improbable and artificial. Whether or not it works well is more based on execution.