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REVIEW: The Moe Manifesto

@Zac:
The problem is, coming in with the "It's unhealthy/self-absorbed/narcissistic" angle doesn't really add anything to the discussion, other than that you think it's self-absorbed and narcissistic, which is fine, but then don't pretend that you're trying to have a discussion on this and that the people pulling out articles & statistics, providing counter-arguments, and recounting personal experiences aren't.

When you start with "It's unhealthy and self-absorbed," and return everything to "It's unhealthy and self-absorbed," for every argument, it looks like you're only here to talk about how unhealthy and self-absorbed you think this phenomenon is. It's 100% a-ok if that's your perspective, but don't accuse the people who dispute that as not being interested in discussion. That's dismissive.

Your explanation (and certainly TEAnubis' explanation which I think I've heard approximately 700 times now) isn't new to me. It isn't a perspective I haven't heard before - in fact it's the most repeated "take" on the subject I've heard over the last decade or however long this has been a thing.

What I said was directly in response to someone who is clearly a true believer on this matter coming in and telling everyone that 1. this is perfectly healthy and helps people and 2. don't ever raise questions about it or express your concerns about this lifestyle with anything other than deference, positivity and acceptance, otherwise you're a mean stupid bully who doesn't get it and is victimizing us.

I expressed how I feel about "waifuism" pretty plainly, laid out the mental health issues at play, why retreating into fantasy isn't a particularly good way to grow as a person, and then left it at that. I didn't call any names, I didn't victimize anyone, I didn't subjugate anyone or try to force anyone to change their lifestyle, but the way some of you argued against me, it's like simply having the opinion I did was somehow doing all that and more. Like it's dangerous and mean and abusive for someone to say "this doesn't seem healthy, here's why". If you're that fragile about your lifestyle choice, why are you going into a discussion thread, insisting it's 100% A-OK and nobody should question it ever, and then proclaim that everyone who takes issue with it is a mean bully who lacks basic human empathy? You do understand that people are going to take issue with that in particular and push back against it, right?

If I'd said "what a bunch of stupid neckbeard losers" like you tried to claim earlier, then maybe I'd get the outpouring of "you're mean and you don't understand us!!" but this seems like an overreaction to someone having an opinion that you don't agree with. I do understand "waifuism", it isn't a particularly complicated concept. Being told I don't get it because I don't share your view of it is just another "you don't agree with me so you're intellectually inferior and objectively wrong" internet posturing thing and it's disappointing that you still apparently can't have a conversation about this subject at all without it immediately turning into "you're bullying me! you don't have any empathy!". Doesn't matter what I say - you're not interested in a conversation or a debate, you just want me to parrot your opinion, celebrate your lifestyle, make you feel good about it and walk away. Any language other than that is verboten, apparently.

By all means, live whatever lifestyle you want. My opinion on the matter doesn't change anything and doesn't impact you beyond having read something you don't agree with. I don't think people who subscribe to this lifestyle are a danger to others, and they'll keep doing what they're doing regardless of what I or anyone else says about it on the internet.

But don't pretend like you want to actually have a discussion about it, because you clearly don't.

You really think "no you" is the best possible argument in every situation, man. Every time; this is #2 in this thread alone. "No it's you who lack empathy" and "no it's you who doesn't want a discussion". It isn't this rhetorical trump card you seem to think it is. You're a smart guy and I respect you but this is super repetitive.

None of that "evidence" was particularly compelling to me, but I did read all of it and took it into consideration. Aside from the statistics - which I've seen before - it's mostly rejecting even the idea that this is a little self-absorbed. There is zero acceptance or admission that any of this is even somewhat unhealthy. Which is why I argue the way I do. What I see is denial. So I keep trying to make my argument, which is probably a waste of time.

When your position is "this is potentially unhealthy and seems rooted in self-absorption" and not a single person on the other side of the discussion even kind of accepts a kernel of truth to that or even seems to hear what you're saying - rather they cast you as a bully and put words in your mouth so they can feel insulted - it's frustrating. I accepted that there could be and obviously have been positive side effects; where's the admission that this at least could be seen, and not unfairly so as a phenomenon of narcissism? It isn't there. There isn't even a good explanation as to why that idea is absolutely wrong, or why nobody will cop to it. Which is why this isn't a discussion. Anything less than positive acceptance and encouragement from me is seen as evil bullying and a sign that I lack basic human empathy.

So we're all talking past eachother and nobody's listening anyway.

I never said that you personally mock people with waifus as pathetic virgin weeaboo neckbeards. All I said was that it's condemned by society and such scorn is a common occurrence.

that does not make one a pathetic virgin weeaboo neckbeard loser to be demonized, and to imply that people with a waifu are such is downright offensive.

Perhaps if you'd actually read this thread you'd see that. Instead you've done nothing but spout armchair psychology, strawman arguments and projection (actual projection, not whatever you seem to think it is). You've ignored almost every post directed at you. You say we aren't here to discuss? I say "no, you".

With that, I'm done here. Feel free to have the last word.

Aside from the statistics - which I've seen before - it's mostly rejecting even the idea that this is a little self-absorbed. There is zero acceptance or admission that any of this is even somewhat unhealthy.

When your position is "this is potentially unhealthy and seems rooted in self-absorption" and not a single person on the other side of the discussion even kind of accepts a kernel of truth to that or even seems to hear what you're saying - rather they cast you as a bully and put words in your mouth so they can feel insulted - it's frustrating.

#1 Nothing wrong with being self-absorbed at times in the privacy of your own home provided it doesn't harm others.

#2 I only consider behavior "unhealthy" when it harms someone other than yourself.

Obviously, you disagree. We don't all share the same moral foundations (perhaps Haidt's Moral Foundations Theory is relevant).

For me, it's not about other people being flawed nor do I look at them through "Holden Caulfield-esque bitterness aimed at everyone around you." I genuinely like other people: flaws and all.

What it is about is me being irredeemable flawed from birth and learning to cope with that. While I am very aware of my flaws, I still desire friendship--to be liked--to be loved. To at least pretend to be who I always wanted to be. Escaping into fictional worlds is the sole reason I have survived as long as I have. Judge if you must, but I made the choices I did because of the life I had to live. The same is, of course, true for every other person on the planet. Most of whom, I'm more than willing to acknowledge, had it worse than I do.

So we're back to harm. Watching anime harms no one and keeps me alive. I wish you wouldn't look down on that, but I can't stop you.

I'd argue it's not personal--more it's because of a sense of lack of respect--which sometimes turns into mocking--towards fans from both the anime media and the industry. You want our money (eyeballs, etc) but don't actually like us. How it goes, I guess.

Honestly, I can even kind of see where you're coming from (you usually deal with the most vocal fans--who are often not the nicest of people just by the nature of who comments). Sometimes, I get frustrated with my customers too. But it can be kind of off putting when all that stuff is public, you know?

Hate to break it to you, kid, but the world is not fair. Never has been, never will be. Everyone who doesn't follow along is essentially dead weight and will be either kicked to the curb completely or given just enough platitudes to give them the illusion of happiness.

Have any of you tried to, I don't know, see a psychiatrist? I'm pretty sure they're well versed in treating anxiety and other social disorders, or at least know which pills help with that.

You really think "no you" is the best possible argument in every situation, man. Every time; this is #2 in this thread alone. "No it's you who lack empathy" and "no it's you who doesn't want a discussion". It isn't this rhetorical trump card you seem to think it is. You're a smart guy and I respect you but this is super repetitive.

None of that "evidence" was particularly compelling to me, but I did read all of it and took it into consideration. Aside from the statistics - which I've seen before - it's mostly rejecting even the idea that this is a little self-absorbed. There is zero acceptance or admission that any of this is even somewhat unhealthy. Which is why I argue the way I do. What I see is denial. So I keep trying to make my argument, which is probably a waste of time.

When your position is "this is potentially unhealthy and seems rooted in self-absorption" and not a single person on the other side of the discussion even kind of accepts a kernel of truth to that or even seems to hear what you're saying - rather they cast you as a bully and put words in your mouth so they can feel insulted - it's frustrating. I accepted that there could be and obviously have been positive side effects; where's the admission that this at least could be seen, and not unfairly so as a phenomenon of narcissism? It isn't there. There isn't even a good explanation as to why that idea is absolutely wrong, or why nobody will cop to it. Which is why this isn't a discussion. Anything less than positive acceptance and encouragement from me is seen as evil bullying and a sign that I lack basic human empathy.

So we're all talking past eachother and nobody's listening anyway.

Here's the rub, though: Is it healthier to form a romantic connection with a fictional character, or to put oneself out into the dating world and face constant rejection from the opposite sex, breaking you down bit by bit? Because that seems to be what a lot of these people are facing.

The 2D>3D thing. I've seen that everywhere, and if it isn't rooted in outright hatred for women who can think for themselves, it's based in deep egocentrism that the world isn't good enough. Maybe these are all edge cases but it is the majority of the attitudes I've seen from people who are really in to this.

Based on plenty of the reactions I've seen from people who embrace the idea, it has screwed up plenty of heads and has resulted in some really toxic attitudes toward women, toward society and the world in general. "2D>3D because it's easier to handle and never questions or challenges me" isn't a healthy way to deal with adulthood. That obviously isn't who you are, and you're one of many examples where the idea isn't taken to that level, but that level is what I'm reacting to.

The expectation that you can tell someone every last thing about your private life - your sexual fetishes, your fantasies, everything - and they're going to react with nothing but warmth, empathy, respect, celebration and encouragement isn't realistic.

I do think, especially after this exchange with you, that people like me, who feel the way I do about it, would do a lot more good by simply saying nothing except in the most extreme cases.

Here's the rub, though: Is it healthier to form a romantic connection with a fictional character, or to put oneself out into the dating world and face constant rejection from the opposite sex, breaking you down bit by bit? Because that seems to be what a lot of these people are facing.