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Olivine wrote:

Unless I missed something while reading, is this the paragraph from that link you are referring to?

Erica Friedman article wrote:

More insidiously, Fans become so attached to the way they believe a thing should be, that they begin to think it is the way that things are. They start to feel as if the creator of a series actually *owes* them for being so engaged in the series - even if they have never once financially supported the series in any way. "My love," this kind of Fan says, "is worth something. You *owe* me for my loyalty." This leads to what I call "Fan Delusion."

Forgive me if I didn't find the right paragraph, but I'm confused. What sort of argument are you trying to make about digital distribution, based on the article?

That there's something delusional about thinking having no DRM is a great idea or a necessity. How do you expect companies to control distribution? There has to be some kind of DRM or security to keep products from being distributed without their permission. Just look at the One Piece leak. I think fans have to keep reality in mind when considering digital distribution.

I mean, if there's no DRM, they can just share the copy they buy infinitely with their friends- more or less making it the same as a fansub, just one companies have dumped their money into making, You're just asking them to become the fansubbers, and put their content out there with no controls, no way to manage it, and no way to monitor how it's used or shared. Streaming works because it's in a fixed place, numbers can be monitored, and content can be managed, that's why companies are jumping into it moreso then free, DRM-less downloads. They're going to places like those I listed in other posts where they can manage content, and expect to get a fair idea of it's profitability, rather then a mysterious promise from fans it'll be successful with no real evidence to back things up [aka Underpants Gnomes Economic- put anime online + ?????? = PROFITS!..........something about that is questionable].

Not saying you shouldn't be able to switch devices or other such stuff, but you have to keep in mind companies have to protect themselves as much as they have to serve their audience. It's just one of many different forms of fan delusion.

Paploo wrote:

How do you expect companies to control distribution? There has to be some kind of DRM or security to keep products from being distributed without their permission.

Um...Paploo. Their products are being distributed without their permission. They can't control distribution. That's why we're all here arguing.

Look, I understand their concern. At the same time though, DRM feels like a lost cause. The stuff is almost universally already out there if people want to pirate it. What does it matter if they pirate the legitimate release instead of a fansub? You might as well at least maximize revenue from those who choose not to. Besides, it's not like DVDs are really much more secure.

Paploo wrote:

Edzeiba's statement made is sound as if it was domestic distributors who have a problem with fansubs, not the japanese industry.

Nope, I was talking about the Japanese distributors in the first place.

Paploo wrote:

The problem with that is if their product matches the free alternative- no DRM, no ads, Free- it's not really something they can make any money with.

This is the problem that needs to be solved. Not 'how to stop unauthorised distribution', but 'how to monetize free distribution'. Look to the music industry: a lot of artists are figuring this out.

edzieba wrote:

]This is the problem that needs to be solved. Not 'how to stop unauthorised distribution', but 'how to monetize free distribution'. Look to the music industry: a lot of artists are figuring this out.

again you compare two completely different markets with completely different sales, and completely different issues.

also, monetize free music what? that makes no sense to me. most artists today get most of the money they make from concerts, which is sort of how the music industry has recovered from the blow dealt by piracy. hence the 50 dollar price tag on most concert tickets (at least where i live anyway).

and you know what i'm gonna do? immma cite sources! *GASP*

here
and here

Zac wrote:

Welp, Eric is our guest on ANNCast this week so get ready for round 2!

You mean he didn't run to the mountains to hide from all the angry fans his words worked up into a frenzy? The guy's got some guts, that's for sure.

It'll be interesting to see if he backs his words or plays on the "Well, I didn't really mean it this way." Looking forward to this podcast, that's for sure.

Here's my question for him, if it's not too late: If Bandai pulls out and everyone buys Section 23/FUNimation products, how will this help Bang!Zoom since both have their own studios?

Leon Evolon wrote:

You have to admit though, it's rather amusing to watch people bickering

Why the rolling eyes? Money can't buy entertainment like this. Very Happy

It's not as though anyone forces others into reading this.

At 60 pages, I've got to throw this into the "Thread of the Year" nomination bucket. It'll be interesting to see if it gets topped after this week's podcast.

I'll ready the popcorn.

I want to hear what he has to say extensively. How about making the podcast longer to ask the maximum questions?

The next big boom is about to be heard Razz

!

ROUND 2 - FIGHT! Razz

Or

PEACE AND LOVE MY FRIENDS! Cool

Olivine wrote:

Erica Friedman article wrote:

More insidiously, Fans become so attached to the way they believe a thing should be, that they begin to think it is the way that things are. They start to feel as if the creator of a series actually *owes* them for being so engaged in the series - even if they have never once financially supported the series in any way. "My love," this kind of Fan says, "is worth something. You *owe* me for my loyalty." This leads to what I call "Fan Delusion."

Forgive me if I didn't find the right paragraph, but I'm confused. What sort of argument are you trying to make about digital distribution, based on the article?

I think Erica was referring to the situation that the article was addressing. Obviously, as the founder of a small niche publishing house, she will have a different window into the market than the CEO of BangZoom. She is also more engaged with anime and manga fans on social media on a regular basis than the CEO of BangZoom, so she'll probably have a bigger window into the attitudes of some segments of the fanbase.

Olivine wrote:

Paploo wrote:

Olivine wrote:

I wasn't saying that. I was saying that he (or rather the R1 industry in general) is crying foul instead of changing their business model to suit reality. The reality is that the digital market is where the growth is going to come from. Its where most of the potential new customers (I believe) are. If the industry wants to make the freeloaders customers, they aren't going to win them over with physical media. They need to match the format that those potential customers like. Those potential customers simply don't want DVDs. They want DRM free, H264 encoded files in an .MKV container. Thats it. They need to match, or beat, the free alternative in video quality, and put a price tag on it. Right now, the paid alternative is lower quality than the free alternative. Paid online streaming is a step in the right direction, but they aren't going to completely win over those potential customers until their product at least matches the free alternative.

The problem with that is if their product matches the free alternative- no DRM, no ads, Free- it's not really something they can make any money with. ...

I meant matching the free alternative in quality. Of course they need to charge for it. I thought that pretty much went without saying.

On the discussion of the original paragraph - the streaming segment of the market is already superior quality of the free alternative streaming. And its not like all the anime production committees in Tokyo are banging down the doors to get streaming deals signed to be part of it - of the new anime broadcast in Spring 2010, six are simulcast streaming - four on CR and two with Funimation - and the Funimation simulcast is US-only.

New business models take time to get established not only because it takes time to work out all the kinks, but also because a new business model will normally not sync up precisely with the system of financial rewards already in place. There will be both winners and losers with a new business model, and for the net losers, the fact that its better "for the industry as a whole" is no big argument for jumping on board.

And the Japanese production committee system amplifies that, because everyone wants to wait until everyone else has said its OK. So if the merch partner, or the mangaka, or the Japanese DVD distributer, thinks that its not a net benefit to them, then it becomes a gridlock situation getting the rights.

So it may take a year or two for the streaming model to settle down - in that year, the financial situation on DVD sales will becomes even worse, and currently ongoing experiments with digital downloads may make it easier to get production committees to go "all in" on high quality, multiple audio and subtitle channel, DRM-free, redundantly digitally fingerprinted downloads at a reasonable price point.

Paploo wrote:

That there's something delusional about thinking having no DRM is a great idea or a necessity. How do you expect companies to control distribution?

The distribution point that is capable of being controlled - even if the models to do so are not presently in place - is the free anime streaming on places like Megavideo and Veoh and especially Rupert Murdoch's MySpace (despite all his noise about "piracy", he owns the biggest pirate support base faced by the US anime industry), where streams are uploaded and then pointed to by leach streaming sites.

For that, what is required is a subscription model and multiple redundant digital fingerprinting to the subscription. Then when a subscriber distributes a file by torrent, their file will make its way to one of the "open harbor" streaming sites, which detects the digital fingerprint (under commercial arrangement), the subscriber is caught and their subscription turned off.

That is not DRM in the sense of locked players - but may be more effective in creating a space within which downloads and streaming can be commercialized with ongoing "weeding" of competition from torrents and leach streaming sites.

agila61 wrote:

For that, what is required is a subscription model and multiple redundant digital fingerprinting to the subscription. Then when a subscriber distributes a file by torrent, their file will make its way to one of the "open harbor" streaming sites, which detects the digital fingerprint (under commercial arrangement), the subscriber is caught and their subscription turned off.

I actually heard about this from one of the software engineering professors here, but I forgot what the proper name for it is. It sounded like a good way to catch uploaders - a small piece of code is changed and acts as a "fingerprint" which can be traced back to the source. I wish I could remember the proper name for it - it's bugging me.

Olivine wrote:

ArsenicSteel wrote:

I just don't support the numbers companies provide as "loses" because of downloads. There is no proof that that majority of downloaders would become buyers.
Strictly from a numbers standpoint. Some downloaders can be converted, I agree downloading is a factor in poor DVD sales.

I can sort of support and sort of not support the numbers companies provide as "loses" because of downloads. I would say there are three main groups of downloaders. (feel free to help me refine this.)

1. Watch, buy later - This group is buying the DVD's, so the industry can't count these as lost sales.
2. Dissatisfied buyer - This group might buy something once in a while, but generally is dissatisfied with some aspect of the product. This is the group that can be count as lost sales. They are willing to buy, but they aren't really all that enticed by what is available.
3. Freeloader - They don't buy as long as free alternatives are available. Even more, if free alternatives suddenly weren't available, most would probably just leave anime for something else. The industry can't count these as lost sales, because they were never going to buy anything anyway.

Not even the american music and movie industries combined could keep free alternatives from becoming available. The freeloader group is just a lost cause. The watch, buy later group is nothing to worry about, the industry already has their business. I think what the industry need to do is work on accomodating the dissatisfied buyers. Thats the potential market that can save them, I think.

Your list is fair enough. It encompasses the 3 possible customer types; the will buyer, won't buyer, and possible buyer. Naming the Dissatisfied to Possible buyer would be less self defeating. I am also not sure if 2 can be qualified as lost sales, as any group that watches a product and then does not buy could be called lost sales too.
Number 3 hits the nail on the head perfectly.

2. Possible buyer - This group might buy something once in a while, but would rather not pay directly for a product until they are satisfied it is worth buying. This is the group represents potential sales. They are willing to buy, but they aren't really all that enticed by what is available.

There is no single benefit to DRM files. None. Control the medium? What's the point. There is not one single file that uses DRM that does not have a free DRMless alternative. Let's just say for one moment that Bandai (random example) was offering free episodes of Gundam 00 in 720p, with styled subs just like the fansubs, for free, but with DRM. The official release and the fansub release are now of the same high quality, both are free, both have no adds. One has DRM, one does not. Which one is better? And which one will people want more?

My point it, DRM does in no way help curp piracy. It actually makes it worse, because there are a crap load of douches out there who will go "Oh, you put DRM on this, huh? Well, watch me rip it and release it for free."

agila61 wrote:

Paploo wrote:

That there's something delusional about thinking having no DRM is a great idea or a necessity. How do you expect companies to control distribution?

The distribution point that is capable of being controlled - even if the models to do so are not presently in place - is the free anime streaming on places like Megavideo and Veoh and especially Rupert Murdoch's MySpace (despite all his noise about "piracy", he owns the biggest pirate support base faced by the US anime industry), where streams are uploaded and then pointed to by leach streaming sites.

For that, what is required is a subscription model and multiple redundant digital fingerprinting to the subscription. Then when a subscriber distributes a file by torrent, their file will make its way to one of the "open harbor" streaming sites, which detects the digital fingerprint (under commercial arrangement), the subscriber is caught and their subscription turned off.

That is not DRM in the sense of locked players - but may be more effective in creating a space within which downloads and streaming can be commercialized with ongoing "weeding" of competition from torrents and leach streaming sites.

Not realistic for multiple non-associated websites to all support a 3rd party security measure, which may or may not even apply to their area of the world. Websites would just move servers to the areas of the world the 3rd party security protocol does not apply to.

Turning of subscriptions that assumes there is a subscription process in the first place or that the subscription even offers something tangible for a person to feel a loss if it gets locked. There also would need to be a way to prevent multiple or the ability to make another subscription but that isn't a legal option anyway. Please don't say tie the account to their IP addy, not many ISPs give out statics. Statics can even be changed by customer request.

To implement what you are asking dances into 1984 territory and circumvents some consumer legal rights, at least in the US

Bang Zoom is a facilitator of anime not a distributor or license holder. So I can't fault them for feeling hopeless about problems with Anime in America. I'd figure someone like Funimation or Viz, would have more control over the Anime in America problem. For instance, the problem with anime in America is its lack of appeal to the mainstream, stagnant fanbase, and its inability to establish an identity in America.

Sure people who have a thing for Japan love anime but compared to the general American population that audience is nil. And really think about it, most US fans are "on the fringe" members of society. They are so insular that they can't and will not convert the mainstream masses over to anime. They'd rather scare it away. As they truly seek to make anime, only "theirs" and will cry the day they overhear Ms. Popularity say she adores Nana.

American Anime companies wouldn't mind pandering to this group. After all Star Trek, LOST, Star Wars, & Comic Book fans, are just a insular, but they enthusiastically support their passions with their money. Unfortunately, this US anime audience while confessing their love for Anime don't monetary support it. They'd rather hang out at bookshops hogging the Manga aisle by reading instead of buying, watching anime online for free, and spending all their extra money on buying digital clothes for their MMORPG character. Please don't tell me this demo is too broke. A many Japanese Otaku's live in borderline poverty to afford their Anime habits. Living in Japan is expensive, the US is far more economical. So if a Japan otaku can afford to have 100s of Anime DVDs than an American fan can afford 1000s.

Other than that, US anime companies need to figure out how to get anime that will appeal to the common youth. They did it with Dragon Ball, Naruto, Speed Racer, Transformers, Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Hayao Miyazaki films, and to some extent Hamtaro . Why can't they repeat this success again? Something as cute as Fruit Baskets could be played on the Disney Channel or Nick and something as mature as Nana could be played on MTV. Cowboy bebop and Samurai Champloo could have been played as a summer shows on Fox. I'm pretty much shocked that Naruto hasn't been given a live-action movie deal yet.

In all honestly, Why would Cartoon Network choose to air the French produced pseudo-anime Amazing Spiez/Totally Spies over an authentic and far superior Japanese equivalent? Because they are owned by Marathon Media Group, who has contacts with the movers and shakers in important International TV markets. Something that US and Japanese Anime Companies severely lack.

Japanese anime companies couldn't care less about the non-Japanese market. But US Anime companies, if they want to survive, they need to talk to Media Network execs, convince them to take a chance. Network TV is doing abysmal now. If you can sell them a show that can be produced under $2 million per episode, you've got a deal (see: http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118018597.html?categoryid=14&cs=1&query=undercovers ). Action-Anime would fair best on network TV over the Summer. Kids are out of school. Older Adults don't watch network tv until Fall. Adults under 35, don't think cartoons are just for kids. IF US anime companies take advantage of TV Network desperation they could sale Anime to the American public. If they sell it to the American public, then they could go like Marvel and make movie licensing deals with major motion picture studios. Anime DVD sales would significantly pick up as well.

They could also get shojo manga excepts in Seventeen Magazine, Teen Vogue, or J-14. Get shonen manga excepts in Video Game magazines. Get Manga and Anime in Gamestops. Setup up booths at College Campus around the US and give away free manga. Sponsor youth oriented events and puts free manga in grab bags. There are so many ways manga/anime companies can extent their reach beyond the anime/manga freeloaders.

People claim that fansubbers are just as harmless as pirated movies/music/tv shows. But I feel there is a huge difference. For one, all of the previous products are firmly established in America and ingrained in our culture. Even though many people illegally download Britney's newest song, enough people will still legally buy Britney's music and attend her concerts. This number is still big enough to keep her and her music company in their cozy mansions.

The problem is anime isn't established in America. So every viewer needs to be officially counted, either by DVD sales, Merchandise sales, or TV viewership. These, the money makers, are the only things that count. Bittorrent downloads numbers and fansub popularity means nothing. These viewers are invisible. In fact, every viewer lost to fansubbing is one viewer less to legitimize Anime in America.

If everyone who fansubbed, brought one Anime DVD a month or watched Naruto Shippuden everytime it aired on Disney X D, they would be aiding to the cause of Anime in America. Even if they "hated" dubs and think Naruto sucked. A TV exec will be more convinced to put more Anime on TV, if they saw that Anime was ranking impressive DVD sales or viewership on a its or its rival's network.

If Anime becomes more popular in a legitimate way, anime companies and their facilitators can afford to hire more people. They can afford mainstream anime as well as the very niche ones. This means that people with fansubbing skills could get real jobs. Anime enthusiasts can work for their favorite Anime company in the PR, Legal, Licensing department, or as Anime reporters. But it won't happen, if things stay the way they do.

Fansubbers aren't impenetrable. They can be easily sued out. Pirating music doesn't require translations. Pirating American movies/tv shows do, for foreign viewers, but English-French/Italian/German/Chinese are translators are plentiful and live outside the US. So it wouldn't make sense to sue them. However, somewhat fluent Japanese-English translators are very rare (fully mastered native Japanese speakers who are masterful English translators are ultra rare and are never apart of any fansub team) and most often all anime translations from Italian to Spanish hinges on the first English fan-subbed release. If the US Anime companies would sue the best English fan-sub teams (who live in the US) than the whole international fan-sub market would crash. Sure other teams might pop up but their translations probably won't be as good, accurate, and/or consistent. And if the industry keeps suing the best, than fansubbers may just die out or go super underground where only very few anime fans will tread. Hence, Fansub teams aren't a hard problem to get rid of, its just that US anime companies are just playing "nice."

archyteckie08 wrote:

If the US Anime companies would sue the best English fan-sub teams (who live in the US) than the whole international fan-sub market would crash. Sure other teams might pop up but their translations probably won't be as good, accurate, and/or consistent. And if the industry keeps suing the best, than fansubbers may just die out or go super underground where only very few anime fans will tread. Hence, Fansub teams aren't a hard problem to get rid of, its just that US anime companies are just playing "nice."

Why would the international fansub scene crash? Do you REALLY think that the best translators are in the US? Why would you think that? Fansubs are VERY hard to sue out. How are you going to sue someone from say, Moldova?

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