Forum - View topicReading Between the Lines
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Andromeda
Posts: 119 Location: Florida |
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And that is the crowd, I think, that Zac and many of the rest of us dislike so much. 
I download a little... mostly to preview series or catch series I can't get over here (Sailor Stars, PGSM live action, Marimite, obscure old stuff). However, if there's a licensed version, even if I do download it, if I enjoyed the first two episodes, I usually buy it. It was this way with me for Fruits Basket and for Someday's Dreamers... though these I usually see at cons.
If a person uses fansubs just to see if the show's any good before they buy... well, I can accept that, that's no different from borrowing a DVD from a friend. If they watch them because they can't get it over here, fine. I do that too. It's when they get really snotty about not paying for anime, and start insinuating that anybody who buys the DVDS is a moron, that's when it gets annoying. Or when they try to tell you it should be free (not, "I can't afford to pay for it", not "I don't wanna shell $25 out for something I haven't seen", but "people who make anime don't need to be paid"). Look, in a perfect world, people would just give each other food, clothing, water, shelter, etc., so that they could just do their art without having to worry about a paycheck. In a perfect world, the artists who make anime would be able to do it just for the joy of it, just to be making great animation and sharing it with the world, and then because they didn't need to be paid, people would be able to see it or have it for free and everybody would be happy. But we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world where people DO need money to get by, and where artists can't do it for free, as much as they'd maybe like to. So if you have loads of money, way more than you need or use anyway, lots and lots of spare money, and yet you get EVERY anime that you "absolutely love to pieces. It's the best TV EVER!", etc. etc... and then you don't buy the legal DVDs nor any related merchendise that would support the creators in any way... then yeah, I'm going to consider you a less-than-nice person. If you can't afford it or are the type who's always nervous to spend money because you worry about the unexpected, that's one thing. I personally can live with that. But if you DO have money for it, and you don't pay for, then you are being disrespectful to the people who actually made it possible for you to see the anime in the first place. Plus, the video and sound and translation are usually better on DVDs, and nowadays, you usually get extra features like audio commentaries or bloopers or some production sketches or music vids... you can't really get all of that with a fansub. That and art boxes. I like artboxes. 
So me? I use fansubs, sure (about as often as I borrow DVDs or watch Adult Swim, actually ). But if I really, really like a series, I usually buy it eventually, because simply having an affection for it doesn't put food on the table of those that made the effort to make it available.
Besides, you can get DVDs for $7 or so if you wait long enough on RightStuf.com I figure, $8 a piece isn't too shabby for a series I love and that has the bonus of having awesome DVD features and funny menus to boot (I speak here of Excel Saga, of course).
Of course, though, I also think people should only be buying stuff they really, really want, because then what you're supporting is the good stuff.
My 2 cents. Not that it makes much difference... -Runa27 |
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shenlongmizuno
 Posts: 51 |
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I disagree, for example take professional sports. Do you think that football would be anywhere near as popular as it is today if the oly way you would watch a game was to either buy the dvd, pay per view or buy tickets to go see them play live? Popular entertainment needs some sort of free/cheap method of mass distribution. Anime on tv like Cartoon Network, the anime channel, fox kids, tech tv have done great work in becoming part of popular culture but I doubt anime would have as many hardcore fans as it does now if fansubs didn't exist. Lets be realistic, anime gives very little bang for your buck compared to other forms of entertainment. The $35 I paid for HalfLife has lasted me 4 years and thousands of hours on the mods. World of Warcraft is only $14.99 a month and people spend hours a day playing that. Pro sports only costs your cable bill and however much you want to spend on beer and snacks. Anime simply cannot compete and IMO would be pretty niche with mainly casual fans without. Anime has been on tv since the voltron days, but never really got big and the majority of fans didn't feel the urge to explore other anime titles. Free stuff always generates interest and the more time spent around anime the more money goes towards anime stuff if not necessarily dvds. Last of all I believe it is very dishonest to say that fansubs are robbing you of the money from the little kids who watch their illegal pirated fansubs to refrain from buying anime dvds because anime companies never had a chance of ever getting money from them in the first place. If not for fansubs they would be pirating games, vg roms, music, movies, ect. They certainly won't start obediently start buying anime dvds if fansubs did not exist. They are lost causes |
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ACDragonMaster
 Posts: 405 |
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Andromeda: I agree. As I commented before, I effectively never buy series without having watched a few episodes first, and fansubs are just one of many ways to do so. Though I borrow, rent, and watch in anime club far, far more titles than I watch fansubs of.
And similarly, my criteria for buying a series is simple: do I want to rewatch it? If watching it through once was enough for me, I'm not going to be interested in buying it. If I've watched the fansubs all the way through twice, and am watching the dub as it as, and want to watch it again when showing it to someone new, then I'd definitely buy the DVDs. Also because of that, I actually do delete fansubs. Because if I'm not gonna watch it again, why should I keep it? And if I'm going to watch it again but therefore am buying the DVD, why should it waste space on my hard drive? Though there's the notable exception of Air, which I would love to see liscenced just so that I could actually afford the DVDs, but you get the idea. Well, it works for me, at least. |
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Bahamut God
 Posts: 113 |
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Leaving my past argument behind. (mostly because I don't really want to try and defend it 80 some odd posts later...) Let's imagine for a moment that all fansubers were effectually stopped, and their was no illegal anime available for download. How much more revenue could we expect to see gained? What would be the outcome.
Some believe that if forced to those who are not buying anime now would begin to spend money on various products. However, it's been stated that these people are not fans of anime. Is it not just as likely that these people who are either unable, or unwilling to buy anime would slowly slip from the community at large. I don't see how that helps the anime industry. In fact, it might severely dampen convention attendance. Perhaps you don't see it as hurting the anime industry, and thus it's worth the risk. (Or perhaps some may want to weed others out of anime.) For the record, I'd like to note that I've spent a significant amount of hard cash on japanese entertainment, in it's many forms. However, when I was my poorer self, I downloaded almost everything. With out those downloads, I would have never developed an interest in anime, and would have not become the "fan" I am today. ...I'd also like to mention that for those of us with credit cards, www.animetakeout.com and it's clones are quite wonderful for watching legal anime on a budget. |
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Lady Multi
Posts: 675 |
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Yes, I do enjoy reading between the lines, ANN, free speach thing and all...and you only made the topic span two reply topics instead of one...
Yeah, I agree with that...and what's more is that these "so-called boxset" sellers can be found so easily...they give their address for goodness sakes in order to sell such things...and they are doing it for profit. This is what really damages the companies...not the weekly fansub release that is done for fans for free access. I've watched one of those bootlegs before...talk about truly lousy subtitles... Another scary thought is that there are some "Anime/Manga/Comic stores" that sell fansubed anime (typically older ones like those in the Sailor Moon fansubbing age)...and get away with it legally... It all seems kinda screwy. --- On another topic, anime is a hobby... I used to download fansubs all the time...I've pratically stopped recently on my own account being as that "patience is a virtue" and the fact that there are a lot of anime being released so quickly now and I don't have to waste my time downloading the episodes (course I had to have my Tsubasa Chronicle fix even though it's past the part I really watched the series for...I still like the manga better). Anime is an expensive hobby but prices have gone down (if you know where to look). And...nothing is "FREE" even what you watch on TV...you pay for cable...you pay for satalite...if not...well that's stealing. Well, if you watch off antenna such things like "Mew Mew Power" *shudders* or any of the other FoxBox anime edits. Other than that...advertisements are paying for it... -- ...Another point...Answerman is bias...and should ALSO quit reading between the lines... Someone could even mention "fansub" in a question and he'd start bashing fansubers and the "bad" downloaders when he, himself, if doing something just as illegal buy infringing copyright by using an edited copyrighted image as a "banner". (I, personally, don't think Studio Ghibli said he could edit a picture from Howl's Moving Castle). Posting pictures without permission is copyright infringment...thus illegal...just as fansubs and fanfiction are... The only people I know who really don't mind people using (within bounds) their work is the manga-ka CLAMP (they say so on their website). See, I DO KNOW THE LAW~ Imagine that! Might wanna check up on that copyright law, Answerman, before you start calling other people theives~! I hate image-art theives the most because they tend to get away with it... ---- Well...I'll still be waiting for simulcast anime on TV or even a chance to watch it in my location (...I'm getting tired of Vandread and stuff I bought already) or even a local store that sells it (Wal-Mart is the only store that sells anime...and I was surpised when I saw the first DVD of Hellsing...Nearly laughed). But until any of those happen or until there is a system to purchase episodes online (yes, for some anime I would even pay , hear that, for RAW episodes)...I'll download anime until I can buy it or to test the series (.hack was a test...even though I downloaded the entire series and soundtacks...I now have a forture invested in it...dvds, games, and the entire soundtrack collection minus the game soundtrack I've never heard). Until then... Well, I've rambled enough haven't I. |
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ACDragonMaster
Posts: 405 |
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But that's the thing. No one in any of this discussion has said that all fansubbing should be stopped. The only point being made is that people downloading fansubs in place of buying DVDs, particularly when it's within their means to purchase them, is wrong, harmful to the industry, and should be discouraged. |
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Tyrenol
Posts: 398 Location: Northern California |
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I find the lack of honesty during editorials sickening.
If you're going to insult somebody, call them for what they are: People with a false sense of empowerment. Anybody with working braincells know that anime isn't free. In fact there's a lot of people who put in their best effort to bring these shows into fruition. And these people who watch TV, being brainwashed into thinking that the shows you watch are free, are still trying to figure out why there's so much advertising getting in the way of their favorite shows? A wise man once said: "You get what you pay for." Why do they think most of your favorite shows have such cruddy animation and directing? 
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Valyn213
Posts: 1 |
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Oh come on now. MR Answerman is awesome, he is hilarious. Just becasue some people take things way to personal is not reason to start this kind of battle.
Keep it up and dont change a thing MR Answerman! |
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mokitty
Posts: 106 |
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I have no time to read through this monster of a thread, and that may make me lazy AND repetitive, to boot, in the eyes of some, but after reading the first page and a half I feel this intense nerdy need to add my two cents.
I was amongst the group cheering answerman on in this case. I have met many a fan who seem to suffer from the dreaded "entitlement complex" he mentioned a week or two ago, and not just within anime fandom. This is an inherent problem with internet filesharing, and the reason various industry groups try to shut down things like napster and more recently bittorrent. But I will limit my comments to anime fandom. To put it simply: There is no doubt that anime fandom is as much about the community as about the product. However, please stop to consider the very term anime fandom. Sad as it may be, the production of any form of artistic expression en masse, such as anime, is a business. And yes, businesses will market things. But it all comes down to the simple fact that people who have no money can not produce things: we could discuss the monster costs of getting producers, directors, artists, sound crews, etc., and yes, the company's own profit, but getting down to the bare bones of the matter, the concept for an anime can not even come into being without a pencil and paper. In our capitalist world, even those things cost money, and to believe that anime could exist without people paying for it does fall (albeit rather harshly) under the header of "utopian" daydreams. Therefore, I would put it to you that the idea of buying to support anime is not some sort of marketing trick to make you feel as part of an "exclusive club" of owners or what have you, but it is necessary to the fandom. Even if you are only in it for the community, anime fandom and the anime community cannot exist without anime, and anime cannot exist without enough people supporting it financially. I do it myself: download fansubs, enjoy the community, share in the fun. Anyone who snubs you off the bat for these things needs their head examined. But when you become a problem, as answerman and this editorial seem to have tried to illustrate, is when you come to believe that bootlegging (and for the purposes of this discussion, I include 'viewing only fansubs' under this header) is a righteous alternative to supporting the industry that gives you your fandom. You can be a "true fan" without spending a cent, but don't try to tell others that it is your lack of spending that makes you a true fan. |
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zegron
 Posts: 19 Location: Ohio |
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I don't think ANN needs to make reparations for anything Mr. Answerman said, and in fact, they weren't in that statement. They were clarifying something, that in my opinion didn't really need to be clarified, so that people would stop spazzing out. Way too much armchair generaling going on here. Zach was correct in his statements.. let it rest.. 
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Kazuki-san
 Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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If you do know the law, then you are familiar with Fair Use. Posting pictures without permission is most assuredly permitted under Fair Use, so long as it is done for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Of course, like any other law, it is not something you can normally just look at and say "Yup, fair use." If someone decided to sue you over it, you'd have to defend it in court, and they would decide. Last edited by Kazuki-san on Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10426 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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And parody. -t |
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otimus
 Posts: 63 |
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I'll take the "communist" route now and say that all forms of art should be entirely public domain, and as such, free to the public. Anime would be included in this. How people would make money, or what incentive there'd be to make quality products, I don't know. That's not for me to decide! But in a progressive, forward thinking society, THAT would be a fact of life, the being free part.
...that said. I don't download fansubs. For one, I hate them. They tend to throw far too many useless swears and such into the mix. (and I love me some actual DVD quality, well.. DVD's.) I'd also like to say that I loathe the answerman for being a general dick to his audience before now, now, and he'll still probably be one in the future. He continues the pursue the path of internet elitism that states "YOU SHOULD RESEARCH EVERYTHING AND ASK NOTHING!!!" type thing. Ms. Answerman was a bit better, but she still suffered from this as well. A column like this should be a WHOLE lot nicer to it's readers, and try to keep itself as objective as possible. Not be a place that slaps around readers, letter writers, and other such things on a frequent basis. |
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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Ack, thought I had put that one down. 
Free anime is the least of the worries for a "progressive, forward thinking society." In an ideal world, money would not be needed, people would work soley for the betterment of society. But we don't live in that world. People latch onto the incentive for working, which is money. I'm not sure it will ever be any different. |
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ACDragonMaster
Posts: 405 |
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Why? It's an editorial, opinion(ated) column. Who says that all columnists have to be nice? There's plenty of columnists, talk show hosts, etc, who are a whole lot meaner than Answerman is, are you going to go tell them to change their ways? |
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