Forum - View topicANN Book Club: Texhnolyze.
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Sorry for getting around to this so late. Had a particular family issue come up, so it was hard to get back to any kind of entertainment the past couple days...
Though I must say I'm disappointed at the lack of discussion so far! Anyway, episodes 17 and 18 are relatively straightforward and speak for themselves, with a few oddities that are likely to confuse a lot of people -- specifically Kano and Ran. Then there's episode 19... oh boy. Episode 17 - With the interval between the last episode set and this one, I found myself a bit emotionally distant from the plot than I care for. (Damn your schoolwork, AG!) Also felt that the episodes went by too fast... - The invasion of the Shapes leaves all of the factions of Lux in disarray. Onishi is losing men both to the Class and being killed; Kimata is in the same predicament. After meeting Hal (who has been Shaped), Shinji calls the Rakan together and effectively disbands them. - Kano is talking to his sister, telling her to look herself if she is so concerned about "it" (which is note made specifically clear... yet). Kano's immediate assistant, Zushi (hey, we get a name), comes in and informs him that the weapon supply from Gabe has been delayed. - Hal meets Shinji at the Rakan's former headquarters. They begin to fight. Hal tells Shinji that he's not garbage like the rest of them in Lux, that he's different from them. (Also note the red color of Hal's vision.) He reveals that he was ultimately jealous of Shinji: he wanted to be stronger and freer than him, though Shinji scoffs at Hal because of what he has become. As Hal is about to kill Shinji, Yoko strikes him with a chair. With the Shaped-man distracted, Shinji charges at Hal and kills him by thrusting his texhnolyzed finger through the latter's eye. (God, I've seen the scene three times now, and I still cringe at that. What a way to go.) - Ichise seeks out Doc on Onishi's orders. He finds away from her lab. Ichise presses her to come with him to help others -- she is a doctor, after all. She rejects the offer, seeing no point in assisting those about to die. Doc also tells him that she despises what Kano is using texhnolyze for: even though Ichise is her masterpiece, the Class still did not find him suitable for their aims. And, when Ichise remarks about his texhnolyzed limbs containing his mother's cells, she reveals the truth: she dumped them out because they were dead and useless. Ichise is furious and nearly kills Doc by strangling her before letting go. - Kimata reveals to those that remain in the Salvation Union that he was texhnolyzed when he sought "the body beyond body." It resulted in not only the contamination of his body (note the almost rusted area surrounding his shoulder and on his rib cage), but his soul, as well. Even with this revelation, those that remain stay with him; indeed, they blindly follow him to all of their deaths, as Kimata charges in vein to strike the opera house where Kano is located. - Kohakura and Toyama are conflicted. The former has been ordered to be Shaped by Kano, though is quite unwillingly to undergo the change; he is forced to, anyway (anyone else find that shot of Kohakura before he is "assembled" to be ridiculously creepy?). Toyama changes sides to whomever will enable him to survive, and has gone to support Kano. - Kano makes a visit to the Mothers, demanding that they return his "toy." (Uh, got anything on that, halfadeckshort?) They claim that he is incorrigible and has gone too far; that they need the people of Lux in order to sustain themselves. - Meanwhile, the Elder of Gabe is informed that their Seer is gone Ran has gone on the train, not wanting to stay in her position any longer. Without her willing to speak to them, they have no guidance. - Speaking of Ran, we witness a couple odd scenes: she is on the train to Lux, talking to... someone. (Others should hopefully figure out what I'm alluding to here.) Episode 18 - To continue from the last episode, Ran arrives in Lux. She motions for "herself" to come follow (using the same motion that she uses for Yoshii in episode one), and she does. - Incidentally, Sakimura also "sees" Yoshii when watching Shapes slaughter some Lux citizens. He runs up and asks the Yoshii-illusion if this is what he wanted, before being knocked down by the Shape. - Anyone else think that seen where the Onishi-double blows himself and the Shapes up in the former Organo main office to be hilariously amazing? - Onishi and his group advance. He departs from Hirota and gives her a gun, stating that the Shapes aren't attacking women and children (more than a cliché here). - There's a bit more to Shinji's comment to the dead Hal about having sex with a girl in the latter's Shaped-state. Specifically, it's an obvious commentary to enforce the visual metaphor: the Shapes resemble Hungry Ghosts. Check out this description:
Remind you of anything? - A large portion of Gabe leaves to find Ran. They leave some of their citizens left to protect Goto. - Telling scene here: Kohakura informs Kano that his right arm has become pained and that he has a severe headache. Kano tells him that that is a consequence of too much exertion, and Zushi also states that the gangrene may have already reached his brain. (Keep this in mind for next week's episode set.) - Ichise and Doc arrive at the library Onishi and the surviving Organo members were at. (Incidentally, check out the oddly-formed letters, once more. Also, we see numbers on Shinji's and Onishi's license plates on their respective vehicles... but the language is still vaguely familiar yet intagible.) She tells Ichise that the Organo is finished, and that he should just go back to the way he was because he never involved himself in Lux before. He says he can't do that. Frustrated, she tells him that Onishi and him can only see what's in front of them and lash out at it. Then, in a touching moment, Doc orders him to embrace her -- he does, and she tells him that this is what texhnolyze should be meant for. Scene ends with Doc saying that they should leave the city for Gabe. - Upon avoiding certain death, Onishi sees the Mothers in his vision and travels to the Class, with Shinji following him. After being challenged by the Mothers, they are allowed in and asked to warn the surface world of Kano's goals. (Also, take note of the Mothers telling them that Kano went a bit mad after receiving Onishi's legs. They also remark about Onishi's legs giving him privilege to their conversation.) Onishi and Shinji plan ahead, with the latter remarking that Yoshii was right: Shinji is ignorant of the world beyond. - Interesting scene: Kano somehow learns that the Mothers have advised Onishi to inform the surface world of the current situation. (How? Can't say for now.) He mentions one exceptionally crucial piece of information: his father was conceived by them, and then they mated with him to birth Kano. He remarks that he wishes that he had torn those wombs apart when he was born (and we are shown an image of three headless, pregnant statues) before having Toyama kill the Mothers in retribution. - Ichise and Doc encounter Ran as the latter continues to gather the citizens of Lux around the Obelisk. (Doc later remarks that this should be enough of a sufficient guard against the Shapes.) Our blond protagonist then hears a train, and she and Ichise head towards. After dealing with a Shape, assistance courtesy of Onishi and Shinji, they plan to go to the surface via Sakimura's train, albeit with some reluctance on Ichise's part. - Also, Ran's duality is emphasized here throughout this episode -- is that a smirk I see when she gazes up at the Obelisk? Episode 19 - God, where to begin? This episode is just heavily allegorical and contains numerous crucial plot points. Can't cover them all yet. - Doc gives Ichise a back-up of sorts in order to supply his texhnolyzed limbs with partial power. The further one is away from the Obelisk, the less capable they become -- and if you're on the surface, the limbs are practically useless. Also, another vital piece of info: Doc tells him that she had put her cells in Ichise's arm and, at the very least, wants him to protect it. Keep this in mind for later. - So, the surface... Anyone care to share their thoughts and feelings on it? - When they step off the train and onto the station, they pass a neon-green barrier. halfadeckshort has some speculation that I think holds a fair bit of credence concerning this, so don't forget it. - Extremely, extremely important image here: the statue the trio see when stepping out into the town. It has no head, no arms and no legs. What could this be telling us? - As the trio heads for the government building, we're bombarded with bright, surreal landscapes, people, infrastructures and buildings. Street lamps become swirling and disorienting as they trudge forward. The sky is blindingly blue and clear (though with one exception at a key moment). Doc witnesses a hazed-out woman peering out from her window. Ichise touches a flower and it quickly decays. (Curiously enough, his texhnolyzed vision also becomes fuzzy.) Shadowed and unclear people appear and vanish, most of them never completely facing out protagonists. Sakimura warns Doc that there may not be anybody remaining who could be considered a full human anymore. And then we meet... - ... Saginuma, the apparent leader. Doc is the one who spots him first, seeing him as a young girl with a ball. Later he interviews her and Ichise as a chair. He vanishes and reappears at an alarming rate. All of these are clues that must be remembered for episode 20. He speaks to them as if through a speaker, his voice booming. - Random observation: a small Obelisk model sits in the government building. Hm... - Sakimura returns to his workplace. He informs his boss that he has returned and that he's killed Yoshii. As he breaks down, his boss only tells him "good work." - Alright, the remainder of this episode delivers arguably the most important information delivered so far in the series: when Doc gives warning of Kano's plans, Saginuma tells her that it's of no consequence. They are superior whatever strength Kano can amass. Texhnolyzation is limited to the environment, and otherwise people with such technologies become ineffective -- he points out Ichise as an example. Doc then asks why the Raffia demand has declined. Saginuma's answer: they don't need it anymore. They accept it as a mere formality, and have since moved on from any dependence on it. They don't need their bodies as they were, and thus texhnolyzation is also beyond their care. He tells her that with the dominant gene (ridiculously, hugely significant; this will be echoed in my final point of this episode, as well as the last set of episodes) have perfected themselves, and thus lack any need for further advancement. All that awaits them is slowly waiting for their passing. Doc protests and says just shouldn't be, but he vanishes yet again. In short: the entire purpose of Lux -- the gathering of Raffia, as well as advancement of texhnolyzation -- is utterly useless to the people they're giving and supposedly making it to. - As they leave the government building, Ichise spots a man. He says that he looks familiar. He goes after him, with Doc close behind. They eventually enter a movie theater, with a film about to play. In one of the more quiet, subdued moments of the series, we witness Lux's chilling creation. People are massacred without any hesitance by masked executioners. An ambitious project begins and an enormous hole is creative, crosscut with privileged men overseeing its progress. Families are gathered and forced down into the hole that shall be known as Lux. Shots of construction and poverty are shown just before the film ends, with the repeated, washed-out text it began with. |
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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That image will haunt me until my dying day, no joke. In terms of the surface world, spoiler[the reality turned my imaginings on their heads. The surface world was portrayed throughout the series as a place of privilege, and to the viewer an escape from the hellhole and grim palette of Lux. The palette may have brightened, but the world itself was frightening, empty, dystopian and wasting away. Why does Kano even want to conquer it? What is he going to do with it? Doc's actions surprised me. I thought for sure she would be your archetypal sell-your-soul type of doctor, but it seems she had a noble purpose with her experiments. And I am confused about why she wanted Ichise to comfort her. I don't think it was because he was just "available" since she was close to Onishi in a non-sexual way, but I can't figure out if her feelings stemmed from the fact that he was her achievement or were on a personal level... I find it interesting that the people of Lux were considered the tenacious survivors of the world while within Lux itself people didn't seem to give a damn about anything. It's all rather depressing and apocalyptic in a gradual sort of way.] As for everything else, I'd rather just sit back and read HellKorn's excellent commentary. |
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Labbes
 Posts: 890 |
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I fell ill last week, and have yet to fully recover, so my concentration was probably not enough for episode 19
I can't really add anything useful to what HellKorn and halfadeckshort wrote, so I will just wait another day for the next set of episodes. The above world gives me the creeps, honestly. PS: That shot with Kohagura, his head only connected to something which looks like the part of a bee where the sting is, reminded me of a shot in Mouryou No Hako where spoiler[Yoriko is dissambled and later gets "new limbs".] I felt it was so horryfing, I couldn't even sleep well that night... |
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halfadeckshort
 Posts: 49 |
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/hastily scrambling to clear away the mental cobwebs, and extremely glad that this thread has been revived...
This image also recalls the sight of Ichise, swaddled in the black bag (with only his face visible) on Doc's table way back in... episode 3? It's another version of the cocoon/womb imagery that changes throughout the series. I'm not sure that we need the spoiler tags for other parts of your discussion, but I'll preserve them for now.
spoiler[One of the things I learned while doing some research on the series is that some of the backgrounds for the surface world were taken/translated from the works of the American artist, Edward Hopper. According to HellKorn, that fact was part of the old Wikipedia entry on Texhnolyze, and I'm not sure why someone decided to remove it because I think it adds an interesting angle to the whole surface world. I put together a few comparison images in order to facilitate discussion: Texhnolyze vs Corn Hill Texhnolyze vs Early Sunday Morning Texhnolyze vs Railroad Sunset There's another prominent one that appears in episode 20 that I'll post later, and there are definitely more scenes that are taken from his paintings. What do you all make of the fact that the imagery of the surface world is borrowed from a particular modern artist? What might that say about the mentality of those who are in charge of the surface? I'll hold off on any more discussion about this until we get through the next set of episodes, but I'm curious as to whether or not this changes how all of you view the surface world (if you didn't know about it already)?]
Doc's relationship with Ichise is rather complicated, but I think that this will become clearer in episode 20.
It's all about perspective. 
I've got to watch a couple of scenes again to refresh things before I make any further comments, even though it appears that HellKorn has just about everything covered anyway... back in a bit. [edit, a bit later]
Though there are probably several ways to take this, I think the key to the toy comment is earlier in the episode, when the eyeless servant Zushi (nice catch on the name, btw) reports on the delayed weapons shipment. Kano goes on to say: "is it possible that it's held up at Class Hill?" It seems that Kano believes that the Class may have something to do with the delay, and so he goes to resolve the situation by visiting the Mothers. |
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Labbes
Posts: 890 |
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Of all things, I would not have made a connection to Edward Hopper - until maybe one year ago, I found paintings without people boring). However, I think there is no deeper meaning behind it, the paintings are used as "source" because they show something I would think is a nice, comforting place. The plain visual aspect of this image stays in Texhnolyze, however, a little village in a nice countryside is not only comforting because of the environment, but because of the people who live there. Texhnolyze twists the image of a little village where one would want to go to relax - that is all, I think. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Makes for a nice deconstruction of a heaven-like setting, no? In fact, the episode title is "Heavenward"; curiously, this is followed by episode 20, "Hades." (I also believe that there's a connection with one of the six realms of Buddhism, but I'll leave that for later.)
Wait for the last episode set -- there's a lot of key information revealed. (Kano's actual goal is, perhaps, the whole point of the series, or at least most of it.)
Episode three, yeah. Same one with the 2001: A Space Odyssey homage.
I think it was removed because the whole article itself was more or less wiped. There was a lot of speculation in the original article, and by Wikipedia's standards it was eventually done away with altogether before becoming the meager piece it is now. (Then again, that hasn't stopped even more controversial and dumb statements from existing on there.)
Oh, that makes sense. And so when Kano learns that the Mothers have told Onishi to warn the surface world, that's the straw that broke the camel's back: he has Toyama kill them, supported by a division of Shapes.
I agree that there isn't any particularly commentary about Edward Hopper's paintings. Texhnolyze does a lot of subversion, though not necessarily with respect to post-modern ideals (in that it is not referntial and self-referential and draws attention to its sources and inspirations, even though it's an amalgamation of multiple genres and schools of thought). However, I don't think that's the point raised by halfadeckshort: it's actually already evident in the show itself. The whole look of the surface world is incredibly pristine and harmless -- so much so that the whole setting reeks of artificiality. The sky is as almost as perfectly blue as can be. Houses and businesses are spotless, lacking any sort of blemish or any quality to make them individualistic. The buildings themselves, in fact, evoke a different time period and setting that shares more in common with the Western world of the early 20th century than anything else. The cars, technology and attire also point towards the same age and environment. It's all centered around an important plot point that's strongly hinted at in episode 20, and also related to one of the points in my previous point:
I also forgot to mention in my summaries how the presence of wires seems to be increased here. They didn't attract as much attention as before: check out episode 18 where we're shown a multitude of dead dragon flies with wires criss-crossing over a particular section of Lux. And there they are again on the surface. I'm not entirely what to make of them, as the type of communication Texhnolyze examines is connected (haw haw) to the wires like in, say, lain. One other thing: I did mull over the fact the first two times I watched the series, but the theme of genocide with expulsion only really hit me this time around. A lot of conspiracy theorists like to talk about a sort of New World Order that can find enough justification and power to get rid of the undesirables and treat them no better than expendable slaves. That's only served as an outlet of paranoia; in the world of Texhnolyze, however, that type of mass-murder and enslavement became a reality. |
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BrothersElric
 Posts: 1996 |
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Man, you know, a scene like that you'd think would stick with me for a lifetime, especially watching it at pretty close to midnight like I did, but for some really odd reason I just can't seem to recall it..... I think I know what you're talking about, but I'm not sure at all and even so I only remember it vividly....... Hmmm, I think I'm going to skim through that episode again and see if I can spot it to refresh my memory. I don't know, I guess it's partly because a lot has been my mind lately not having to do with anime, plus that and I was really tired that night and if you remember me saying on the AA, I even fell asleep and had to go back and watch the last half of one of them, didn't even get around to the third one. So a complex series like Tex is the last thing I needed in a situation like that...... to tell you the truth that wasn't the only thing you talked about from these episodes I didn't recall, although I was able to recall and follow basically what was going on, so I don't need a rewatch or anything. At least not right now anyways. In any case, I should be done with episode 19 by tonight, hopefully. |
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Aromatic Grass
 Posts: 2424 Location: Raleigh, NC |
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HK suggested we move the date for the next episodes to this Thursday, and I agree with him mainly because I haven't even posted for this set of episodes yet! Until now, at least... Plus, I know a few others haven't either. Thanks to those who're still hanging in there. Date extensions all around!
I know, I'm such a terrible person right? At least it's almost over and I'll have an entire week dedicated to doing nothing (aka watching anime). This thread deserves much of my attention over that period since I left it sitting for about a month.
God, these two really do have one of THE strangest relationships I've ever seen... And even after having seen the entire series, I still don't understand them. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about them when we get to the last set of episodes.
Would it be strange if I said no?
Ugh. These scenes bother me so much right now, but obviously I can't say why. I can say that Ran felt really distant these past few episodes.
Is it really an illusion? Or could that particular Shape actually be Yoshii?
I've already told you this, but I felt it was worse than Lux as a sort of "hell." It feels like a completely wasted world. Most of you guys have already covered anything else I might've said about the surface world. I liked rainbowcourage's use of the word "dystopia."
Ugh, this was just terrible. For me this scene was even more creepy than any of the others (that I can remember), even the previously-mentioned one with Kohakura. These lifeless people scare the crap outta me. I can totally see why Yoshii was basically insane and why Sakimura always seemed distressed.
I found everything Doc and Ichise learned from the surface world pretty depressing, but this in particular made every part of their existence below ground seem so pointless. Really, a "formality"?! I dunno, it just made even me feel completely hopeless for these people. And yes, that video at the end of the episode was crazy depressing.
Haha, good to know. We'll have plenty of time to get everyone back into the groove! (I think I need it most of all...) 
You bring up an interesting point about the paintings. Totally didn't know about the artist or the connection between his paintings and the series, but I could easily tell what was trying to be shown about the surface from the way the landscape was presented in just those first few minutes when Doc and Ichise arrived. Looked pretty flat and cartoony. The first thing I thought was, if this place is so perfect and clean, where are all the people?! And HK brings up a good point about the time period of the buildings, etc. in the setting. And he brings us back to his earlier point:
Didn't pay much attention to that statue either the first or second time I watched this episode. Had to go back and look for it again. Interesting that it has angel wings, too. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Like halfadeckshort said, wait for episode 20. (Though I found their relationship quite straightforward on my first viewing.)
Nope. Yoshii's dead as a doorknob. It's essentially Sakimura wondering if this mass-murder and chaos is what Yoshii was aiming for -- I can't give a full response to this yet, but it's both yes and no.
Well, since I've indirectly asked this twice now, I'll ask: what do you think that statue represents? |
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halfadeckshort
Posts: 49 |
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In the interest of moving the discussion along I'll throw my interpretation of the statue out there. I think it's important to recognize that there is more than one way to read the statue, and there are several interpretations that are closely linked. Those linked interpretations share the same important core, however, and that is related to the limbs of the statue. spoiler[The significance of limbs in Lux has been discussed in this thread several times. As Yoshii notes in the series, the destruction of limbs is an expression of power in Lux. It gives rise to two distinct classes of people: those who are able to afford Texhnolyzation, and those who are not. More than that though, the destruction of limbs is a way of dehumanizing the victim as it removes some of their ability to enjoy basic human interactions, such as touching. The importance of human touch has been highlighted during numerous moments in the series: Ran's hand on Ichise's at the Rakan hideout, Doc's insistence that Ichise hold her and then later her hand on Ichise's during the train ride to the surface, and parts of Yoshii's encounter with Mari, to name a few. Though the context of the interactions was different in every case, the importance of the act of touching as a very human form of communication/expression is made very clear. Doc explicitly points out in episode 18 that such expression is how her work, her texhnolyzation, should be used: not for violence, or mere mobility, but for heartfelt human contact. What then, to make of the limbless statue of the surface? At its core it is a human figure from which the means of human contact have been removed. There are no arms to hold, no mouth to kiss, no legs to carry the figure toward another human being. That the wings of the statue are the only intact appendages flies in the face (pardon the pun) of the importance of human contact that has been established in Lux: they represent flight and freedom ("free as a bird"), but they also represent solitude, the necessary consequence of the freedom of flight. Taken in combination with the missing limbs of the statue, the figure can be seen as the Theonormals rejection of the importance of the body, a rejection of the earthly form of humanity.] spoiler[This rejection is made very clear by Mr. Saginuma in episode 19 when he tells Doc and Ichise that the people of the surface have no further need for Texhnolyzation. Mr. Saginuma goes on to question the very idea of Texhnolyzation: "what are you going to grab with such an arm?" Not only have the Theonormals abandoned the idea of replacing parts of their bodies, they have dismissed the significance of the human form entirely. This is further expressed in the "ghosts" of the surface world, who play out their vignettes without any true human contact [more on that soon]. If you accept the idea that the statue represents the rejection of the body, why the statue is there is a little more open-ended. Was it a triumphant declaration that the body-bound misfits have been cast below by the Theonormals? Is it somber recognition that for the Theonormals, freedom from the body (death) is the only future? Is it simply an assertion that the Theonormals have rejected the need for the body entirely? Or is it a gentle reminder that in order to move on, truly evolve, it is necessary to rise above the concerns of the body? As with any piece of art, there is definitely a subjective element to its interpretation, but I think it is safe to say that the statue in the fountain is the antithesis of the very idea of "life" in Lux, a dismissal of the very humanity that the people of Lux are trying to cling to through any natural or Texhnolyzed means [note - I'm thinking pre-Kano here, the Lux we see at the beginning of the series. The post-Kano stuff I'm leaving for later]. Having said all that, I think that another perfectly valid way to interpret the statue is through Yoshii's words in episode 5 about "true freedom" not having to lean on anyone or anything else. Not to be facetious, but the statue is clearly a figure that lacks the means to lean, a figure that has no choice but to be independent. Taken that way, the lack of limbs is less about human contact and more about the rejection of dependence; freedom from all things, not just the body. Obviously, my more detailed interpretation is the one I favor, but like I said before, there is definitely more than one valid way to interpret the statue.] I was really hoping to hear a few more people chime in before I gave my interpretation(s), and I still hope to see some alternate takes on the statue (as well as everything else in the series). There is so much more to discuss, and so many things that I left out or glossed over (some intentionally, with an eye to the end-of-series discussion), so please folks, feel free to throw your interpretations out there. Dissent, agree, expand upon... just get to talking. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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spoiler[So does that mean that the higher-ups who can afford texhnolyze rejoice in their further removal from mankind? From love and compassion? I agree that being truly free involves freeing oneself from other people, but I have other requirements for true freedom beyond that. Lux is presented to us as a prison, with freedom and the search for meaning in life the ultimate goal--or rather, missing piece--of its inhabitants. That is why I cannot say that the surface world is truly free. It's all subjective, I suppose, but they're not free just because they're beholden to no one. They're not free because they're stagnant--they've become entrapped by their own laziness. They lack the ability to change or alter their own fates.]
spoiler[Because I reject the notion that the surface world is "free" even if it once was, I see the wings more as a symbol of conscious removal from mankind--the symbol of an angel, one could say. This is further reiterated by everything you've expressed about missing limbs, and thus missing humanity. The surface world has evolved past humanity, and ascended, not into freedom, but into a static state. The Christian (and thus most popular) interpretation of an angel: angels don't grow, don't age, don't die--they watch the world below from the above, and they are always serene. And don't get me started on the Jewish angels, because they scare me. 
And interestingly enough, Jewish interpretation of angels passed down to Christianity to some extent, including the idea that angels are messengers of God specifically without free will. ] |
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Ardlien
 Posts: 59 |
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"If there's anything you want, anything at all, come to me, I'll be your guardian angel"
I made a late start on the current episode set, and this line from the opening theme hit me. Ichise is most often compared to a dog, but I'm starting to wonder if his more errand-running tendencies stem from a desire to protect/watch over people. spoiler[it's been a while, but isn't there a scene later on about protecting Ran?] I'm afraid that's all I've come up with thus far, I'll go through 18 and 19 again soon. |
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halfadeckshort
Posts: 49 |
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Spoiler tags aren't working exactly like I want them to, but since there's not anything particularly spoilerish here:
What I was saying is that in clinging to their human forms by whatever means necessary, including pre-Kano texhnolyzation, they seek to retain their basic humanity. I'd say more, but I really think we need to be able to discuss the full series in order for me to clarify things further.
While I agree that the Theonormals have pushed themselves into a static state, looking at the example of Yoshii, they do have the ability to change their fate, or at least their method of death. Laziness or apathy doesn't equate to inability.
But the Theonormals do age, decay, and die, and in the obvious case of Yoshii and Sakimura, they are not always serene. And while I seem to remember some rather non-serene hands-on angels in the Bible, I'd rather avoid that conversation and ask something that I'm curious about... what in the series points to a Christian world view? I'm not trying to be rude, but just because something shares a form with something else, it doesn't mean that it has the same connotations. There are plenty of other series with winged personages that fit the "angelic" form (Dotta in Sorcerer Hunters, the Haibane in Haibane Renmei) that have nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. What else in Texhnolyze is leading you to your reading of the statue? I mean, besides the line in the OP as Ardlien pointed out.
Yes. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Yes, but Yoshii in the end couldn’t change anything in the surface world. He failed, and he came to Lux looking for something different. I also don’t think that choosing one’s own method of death is freedom—being given a gun and a sword completely negates a third possibility of living and prospering. In this instance, apathy and laziness are the reasons why the surface world is dying out. At one point they could have saved themselves, but now it’s too late, as evidenced by the trip to the surface world. I actually think that that is one of the key messages in Texhnolyze; it’s exhorting us against apathy.
Hold on. I did not say Texhnolyze has a Christian world view—I’m not even Christian. My purpose in bringing Christianity up was to define the type of angel I was referring to, the type which has become commercialized, i.e. New Testament angels. These angels are in contrast to the severe, wingless excepting Seraphim, ugly angels of the Old Testament. So let’s just say that the angel I am referring to has the qualities of a “secular angel”; and you can’t deny that there are certain qualities attached to angels. A staple of white-winged characters in anime is that they come with a host of pure qualities, while the villains and bad-asses are given black wings. What is leading you to the conclusion of a bird? Bird wings symbolize freedom, which I have already said I do not believe the surface has any longer. Birds also do not possess a higher level of intelligence. Angels seem to have transcended human intelligence because they are able to see the larger picture and view the world from a removed position. I also find it interesting that angels are bound by fate, and do not possess free will, much like the surface world. I am aware that the similarities cease at a point, but to me an angel is a more apt explanation for the qualities the wings represent than birds are. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Man, I want to go crazy on these thoughts so badly... except we've not watched the final episode set yet. Gah.
Love discussing this series, though. I'm always in awe about how much can be dissected from it, even after extenstive analyses.
Gonna side with rainbowcourage here. (Interesting bit about angels, by the way. Hadn't thought about that, but it fits in nicely with my take on this.) I'd argue that it's the exact opposite of freedom: liberation of the body has essentially limited themselves. For "perfect beings" they have nothing else left to achieve, no goals to meet: they can only waste away, living out their twilight years before the lifespan of the human race is extinguished. Saginuma even states as such. If anything, I'd say the show supports the notion of having a corpreal body in order to quantify one's self as a human being. Sakimura states to Doc that there may not be anyone else remaining on the surface that can be considered human. There's also the obvious dichotomy between having the will to live (Lux) and stagnation to merely exist. (There's a great quote by Jack London I want to use once we've come to the end of the series.) Obviously it's quite a bit more complex than what I state above, given what episode 20 reveals to us, but that will wait for later.
I think options two and three are the most likely. Option one wouldn't make sense if you're proposing that the statue was erected shortly after Lux was established. The rejection of texhnolyzation and raffia has been a recent development -- if not that, at the very least it occurred sometime well after Lux was created a 100 years prior. As for option four, I think that's in contradiction with the ultimate message of the series... well, partially so. Can't really explain why without going into great detail yet, as the last episode holds a lot of key information to resolve this question.
One important thing to consider, given this line of thought: what precisely IS true freedom? Those in Lux obviously have it taken away from them, contained and left to rot by those above. Yet the Theonormals are in no better of a position, as you note -- they can go no further and have burdened themselves by giving into their definition of perfection. My advice: pay attention to what Kano says in this last episode set. There's another important piece, but I think that may be evident enough by the time the end credits roll...
Yep. spoiler[At least as he becomes later on in the serious. He's very inward-looking at the beginning of the series -- considering what he's gone through, I can't blame him. But, we've seen him change as the series goes along, trying to find a purpose in life. And that purpose is...?] I'll talk about it in the next episode set.
Someone like Yoshii is an anomally, I think. There's obviously a continuing process where they send someone else down to stir up Lux: the comments towards the last few episodes of the first arc are revealing enough (Sakimura questioning if Yoshii's actions are part of orders; Yoshii stating he doesn't care about orders anymore; Onishi remarking that this reminds him of 10 years ago), as well as Yoshii's book and Sakimura's underplayed story arc. The prevailing trend for the Theonormals is that they don't see any reason to move themselves any further -- as stated earlier, they believe themselves to be perfect.
Texhnolyze doesn't have any type of Christian world view, though I do think there's a thematic similarity between rainbowcourage's take on the statue and what I think it simply means: the Theonormals have "abandoned" their bodies and feel as though they've ascended to a new, higher level of existence (hence the wings). However, there are two references to ideas not totally unrelated to Christianity in the final episode. The first one can be caught rather easily (and it also reinforces a Buddhist concept at the same time, oddly enough), though the other one is far less obvious. |
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