Forum - View topicFullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood (TV) (w/ index).
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amarielah
 Posts: 178 |
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Um...when, exactly? spoiler[His name alone doesn't count as foreshadowing. It always seemed to me to be about the fact that he takes on the forms of others.] spoiler[ Also, all the foreshadowing in the world wouldn't explain why Envy suddenly starts crying, and even admits that Edward is right. Even if Edward was right, Envy's reaction was...weird, and completely at odds with how he'd behaved in the past.] His dialogue, IMO, should have gone more like this: spoiler[Envy: "Ha...Hahahaha! You're such an arrogant little midget. Why the hell would I envy pathetic humans?" [He grins, and turns to Mustang.] "If this guy's the example of human friendship, then I have nothing to envy. He's too weak and selfish to even avenge his friend's death!" [He laughs again, reaching into his body to take out the Philosopher's Stone.] "And now you'll never have the chance, Mustang. Guess it's just too bad. You can tell me how that 'being human' stuff worked out for you when you're all dead!" [And then he kills himself.] ] That would have been much more consistent with how he'd behaved in the past. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I didn't like the Roy versus Envy showdown.
#1): spoiler[Envy took a stupidly large amount of damage considering his stone must have not had all that much power in it. It had virtually none when he was in the bottle, and then all he did was absorb a few mooks; they wouldn't have given him much, since the quality of their stones would have surely been lower. Lust was killed with far less damage than Envy received, and Lust presumably wasn't running so low on power. So that's a big plot hole/problem.] #2): spoiler[Envy should have killed Riza when he had the chance. He also should have run away when Roy turned up, instead of fighting him head on.] #3): spoiler[Using fire in such tiny tunnels should have sucked all the oxygen out of the air, causing everyone to suffocate. It did not happen like that, which is disappointing from a story which is supposed to know a thing or two about science.] #4): spoiler[So all of a sudden Roy goes crazy? Eh, I knew he'd be pissed, but that was ridiculous. I didn't think he liked Hughes that much to completely lose himself to revenge.] #5): spoiler[Envy's final moments were daft. Why the heck would he envy humans, when he is so superior to them? It isn't like he thinks that he doesn't have a soul and therefore wants one really badly. In the first series, the Homunculi wanting to be humans was really stupid, and it seems as if they've carried it over. Also, the fundamental plot of the series, that of the Elric brothers trying to get their bodies back when pretty much it is their new and improved bodies that have kept them alive, is also ridiculous.] #6): spoiler[But back to Envy. He is superior, and he's repeatedly put humans down. And now we're to believe that he secretly admired humans all along? Why? Where was the foreshadowing? The scene as described by amarielah would have been much much better.] And then there's the Sloth battle. #1): spoiler[How on God's green Earth does someone train to take those sorts of blows? Yet that's what Olivier claimed of her brother when he was being pummelled by Sloth. A single blow could have - should have - killed him, and he took seventeen blows that we saw, many of them to the freaking head. Alex - nay, even his corpse - shouldn't have been able to survive, but not only did he do that he then started mauling Sloth. Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid.] #2): spoiler[So Sloth is bullet proof, and pretty much explosive-proof as well, but pointy rocks can pierce his skin? Right? Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid.] And then there's just the general mayhem in the city: spoiler[Where are all of the military's alchemists? I know Scar killed a few but there should have been someone to fight against the forces of Briggs. Their being absent without so much as a word of explanation is a major plot failing.] Once again, I wonder how the Manga is supposed to be so great if these are the story and characters it is telling. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2633 |
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[quote="amarielah"]
Um...when, exactly? spoiler[His name alone doesn't count as foreshadowing. It always seemed to me to be about the fact that he takes on the forms of others.] I never said it did. You are misinterpreting what I said Give me a chance to go through my manga I will give you the exact chapters. It's going to take me some time to find it. But I will edit this post as I do. And yes I am sorry it will have to be the manga not Brotherhood because I have better references to that. And weren't we talking about "subtly" on the other thread. This is a perfect example of what I mean. You took everything Envy said at face value. But you never paid attention to what Envy was really saying or why he was saying those things. And his spoiler[crying & downfall] is also perfectly in character. edit: It was actually much easier to find than I thought because I forgot I had written something about this when the chapter first came out And yes I am starting with the character's name because the emotion is important and I want to explain how well it fits the character in the end: I hate that I have to put this all in spoiler tags spoiler[ Envy (also called invidiousness) may be defined as an emotion that "occurs when a person lacks another’s [perceived] superior quality, achievement, or possession and either desires it or wishes that the other lacked it."[1] It can also derive from a sense of low self-esteem that results from an upward social comparison threatening a person's self image: another person has something that the envier considers to be important to have. If the other person is perceived to be similar to the envier, the aroused envy will be particularly intense, because it signals to the envier that it just as well could have been him or her who had the desired object. To feel envy at or towards; to be envious of; to have a feeling of uneasiness or mortification in regard to (any one), arising from the sight of another's excellence or good fortune and a longing to possess it. Envy's power: Envy's power lies in the fact that he can transform into anyone. Envy can use this to trick someone (as he did when he acted as an Amestrian soldier who killed the Ishbalan child) or manipulate (which he did several times by turning into a character another character cares about thus rendering them defenseless: examples Gracia for Hughes, Ran Fan for Ling). This power is certainty convenient because even though another character might have the upper hand in an actual fight Envy can use his technique to mislead his opponent. Basically many times Envy doesn't win the fight because of his own actual strength. Envy's power also ties into his name. He is envious and thus desires to be someone else. Then in Vol 13 we see Envy's true form a grotesque beast who is made up of the pitiful souls of Xerxes. In this form Envy is physically strong but in the end he still needed Ed to get him out of the situation with Envy (not to mention Ed was not in top form during that fight because of Envy's body and his extreme value for human life)- Ch. 51 His form when his stone used up is even more pathetic Also See Chapter 94 How does Envy feel about humans Humans are so easy to manipulate such fascinating living things. I was so happy Chapter 51 They're so easy to break apart...humans Chapter 49 I am sure there are more examples but these are two I already had and I think they get the point across: So you are saying he is not envious of humans. But why always mention this. Why is Envy (unlike any of the other homunculus who are just doing their jobs for the final day) so focused on the suffering of humans. He absolutely relishes in it. Envy lives off the suffering of humans. He is miserable and always has been. He is pathetic and has to rely on manipulating his enemies. His true forms are grotesque. Seeing humans suffer is what he lives for. Thinking I am at least better than these pathetic human beings. But in the end Envy witnesses the truth strength of humans. He see how they pull through for each other and support one another. The truth comes out. The real pathetic one is Envy and he could not live with this. Thus his suicide is perfectly in character not only that it is a pathetic death for a pathetic character. Also Envy has cried before when he was first reduced to the embryo form my Marcoh. Showing you just how much he hated his real self in Chapter 79 As for Envy telling Mustang "Ha Ha" you didn't even get your revenge for Hughes, well that kind of misses the point. Roy in fact overcame his need for revenge. In the end he realized Envy was not even worth killing. Seeing Roy and the other humans emotionally stronger than ever and working together (even Scar) is more than Envy can bear. And then Ed sees through Envy's weakness and this is something Envy can't bear at all. Envy who has always looked down on humans is now being looked down on by them, that Ed even pities him. It doesn't matter if Envy would lie because he knows that Ed knows the truth. ] Last edited by Maidenoftheredhand on Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:46 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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amarielah
Posts: 178 |
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You also seem to misunderstanding me, but you probably haven't read my response in the other thread.
So explain why he was saying those things.
Not based on his previous behavior. The only way he's reacted in the past to, for example, being called "ugly", is murderous rage. spoiler[ Why would he ever admit that Edward got it right, and when has it ever been shown that he'd cry over Edward being right? Envy is a petty, vindictive asshole. And he should have gone out like a petty, vindictive asshole.] |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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Did you not read my post I said I was going to go and edit in the stuff with chapters but it would take me time to find it all (It ended up being a bit quicker than I thought because I ended up writing something about this before, but I just added more to it).
So as you can see I meant to explain exactly what I meant and I just did in a very long post above yours. |
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amarielah
Posts: 178 |
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The thing is, none of those instances can be taken as solid proof. When I was reading those scenes, I always just took them as Envy being a sociopath who has a superiority complex. Your understanding of it is perfectly valid, but it's not black-and-white correct, either. I'm not wrong in taking those scenes a different way.
Again, my biggest issue with the entire thing is not the fact that spoiler[ Edward was right about Envy. It's the way that Envy reacted to Edward being right. Why would somebody who hates you admit that you were right? Especially when that somebody is Envy. It just doesn't make any sense given how he's always acted.] spoiler[ I also dislike that any and all ambiguity was removed from Envy's character. The entire scene seemed more about showing Edward's character development, rather than of giving an explanation to Envy's actions. ]
Fair enough. It still doesn't explain why Envy spoiler[ admitted that Edward was right.]
spoiler[ Actually, Envy should have missed the point. That's exactly it. Envy is an envious, petty little douchebag, and is not the kind of character who lets somebody else get the last word. If he had said what I suggested, not only would it have illustrated in a far less Anvilicious way just how pathetic he is, it would have shown once and for all that Mustang was over his vendetta, as he could have brushed off Envy's words and said something triumpant in return. Thus, Envy would have illustrated how, in the end, his manipulations proved fruitless, and Mustang would have illustrated how he was stronger than Envy in the most important way.] Last edited by amarielah on Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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You were talking about ambiguity and subtly in the other thread weren't you. Not you but someone else said everything about Arakawa's writing is "in your face". And in this case I am trying to show that Envy's motivation (until it was spelled out in the end) wasn't exactly in your face. That we never had Envy say these things until this chapter but if he did then it would have given away this subplot, And that's fine that you read those scenes differently. But I do feel my interpretation of those scenes fit perfectly with Envy's actions. But again there are similar instances to the first series. Like we don't know why Envy of the first series acts the way he does until we see who he really is. As for spoiler[why Envy is admitting it to Ed well I can sort of see your point. If Envy had just killed himself that might have been enough, although from that action he still would have been admitting it. I think Arakawa just wanted Envy to put into words his true feelings. It was more for the audience than Ed in the end. It wasn't necessarily needed. As for ambiguity being removed, it doesn't really matter to me that Envy's true colors were shown at the end. I never really liked Envy, in this series or the other one. I didn't feel anything for the character. But in the end I actually felt pity. And considering all the horrible things Envy did I was surprised I could feel that for him. ] About your Edit: spoiler[Why would Envy go Ha Ha I killed Hughes when he is in his little work worm like state and can do absolutely nothing. At this point Envy is terrified of Mustang. So instead he does bring up all the horrible things the characters have done to each other, hoping they will turn on one another. Instead they don't do anything and Ed sees right through Envy & Envy knows it. Whatever Envy says would not matter. It's not even worth it to Envy to get the last word in because he knows how pathetic he is to them. This is Envy's true character, the Humans are so pathetic was just a front. He was the pathetic one.] Last edited by Maidenoftheredhand on Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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amarielah
Posts: 178 |
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No, I don't think Arakawa is unsubtle all the time. In fact, she's a master of weaving subtle plot foreshadowing into the narrative. But I do sometimes find her characterization to be quite heavy-handed. Anyway, I would have preferred it not be spelled out. Envy isn't a big favorite of mine in either series, but I just prefer it when certain things are left to the imagination. It's probably because I'm a fanfic writer. And, for the record, I didn't mind that spoiler[ Edward spelled it out, although it did strike me as a little Narmy. I minded that Envy confirmed it to be true, when he could have shown it to be true in a "the homunculus doth protest too much" kinda way.]
I think it's a valid way of explaining why he's such an asshole, but it still doesn't reconcile a lot of his behavior before his spoiler[ suicide].
Yeah, but he was a complete douchebag from start to finish, and I feel like he revealed his true identity more as a means of distracting Ed than anything. spoiler[In a way, anime!Envy also committed suicide. But he did so in a way that provided him with the most satisfaction.]
Yeah, you're probably right. But I feel like she was almost coddling the audience. She can trust us to draw the right conclusions without spelling it out. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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That's possibly true although Ed's words only say why spoiler[Envy was envious of humans, Envy's words tell us why he specifically killed himself because Ed saw through him. So they are two different things. She could have left it up in the air but I know I would have been annoyed by all the people asking for Envy's reasons which I am sure would have come. Also Envy did technically get a last word in when he said to Ed how long will your simplistic outlook take you]
Well in my opinion his reasons for not being such a nice person and his reasons for you know what are exactly the same. Or precisely it's spoiler[Ed learning the truth and Envy realizing this] |
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amarielah
Posts: 178 |
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Oh, don't get me wrong. spoiler[ I never had a problem with Envy actually committing suicide. It's just the whole "admitting Edward's assessment was right" thing that bothered me. His "getting in the last word" just didn't gel with his tearful confession, and his tearful confession didn't work as well as another reaction could have.] Question: spoiler[ When Envy cried after Marcoh saw his true form, did he cry in front of Marcoh?] |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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About question:
spoiler[He actually cried in front of everyone that was there. Admittedly it's not as noticeable as what he did in this past episode/chapter but when he is reduced to his little worm form you see tears coming out of his eyes.] |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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Sorry missed this post before
That's nice
spoiler[Roy was purposely prolonging killing Envy. He was literally torturing him. So yes Envy should have died quicker than Lust but Roy was making sure it would last such as doing things like burning his eyes. That's not going to kill him but it's going to hurt. It's also been said before in the series that Roy can control the intensity of his flames]
spoiler[Riza is not a push over and he didn't have the chance to kill her, Roy came and stopped him. Also he did run away from Roy when he had the chance. You are missing the point that Roy didn't give him many chances. When Envy realized he would not be able to fight Roy it was too late.]
Oh come on suspension of disbelief. It's not a science series, it's a fantasy series.
spoiler[What do you mean "all of sudden". Please show me where Roy was faced with a similar situation where he would go berserk before. Roy has mentioned that he would find Hughes killer at any cost. Every time he met a homunculus he asked "did you kill Hughes". It was one of the things that was driving him. As I said in the Adult Swim thread he once said that he was only going to find Hughes killer to help him rise to the top, but obviously that was not true. It was only when Roy was actually faced with Hughes killer (and how Envy so blatantly showed how he killed Hughes) that Roy's true feelings came out. He was able to keep it inside before because he was not directly faced with it. As for not caring about Hughes...he was his best friend. The person who first said he would support him. The person that got him through Ishval. But no he doesn't care that much about him. ]
spoiler[Way to miss the point. Envy is not superior to humans and doesn't think he is superior to humans. It's called a FRONT. Read my long lengthy reply on this. Al's body does have its conveniences but as been said many times in the series he's literally a walking time bomb. The armor was not meant to hold his soul and eventually it will reject that body. Not to mention he can't feel, sleep, eat, cry, etc. So yeah I see exactly what you mean why he would want that body just because he can fight better in it. ]
spoiler[Again just because Envy says something doesn't mean this is how he really feels. He put humans down to make himself FEEL superior.]
spoiler[Again it's a fantasy. I am sure everything in the first series made perfect logical sense within the rules of our world too. The thing is nothing doesn't make sense within the context of the FMA world and that's what matters. I have to watch the episode for the Sloth fight but I don't recall anything illogical about his body just that like the other homunculus it takes many times to kill him. [/spoilers]
spoiler[Actually Scar killed A LOT and there were not that many to begin with. They also are not all necessarily fighters (remember Tucker). It's pretty obvious Roy, Armstrong, Marcoh and Ed are all that are left and that is all there is too it. And while they never said precisely this is who is left during the Ishval flashback we saw there weren't that many. One state alchemist can do a considerable amount of damage. So no the major plot failing is you not paying attention to the plot.]
No the manga is great, its just your comprehension that's the issue. edit: Although i have some comprehension issues too because I did misread your first point. Edited it though to answer it correctly this time. Last edited by Maidenoftheredhand on Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:09 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Dune
Posts: 223 |
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My post was probably more flippant than I intended it to be; it's a bad habit of mine to go off like that. Anyway, I'm aware that there's character-work going with the action but I do have a few issues with the execution. Like with what I've seen so far of the Roy/Envy confrontation. I'm fine with this being culmination/payoff for Roy's character issues (and boy was I pissed when Brotherhood cut out all of the subtlety/ambiguity with Roy earlier in the story, mostly during the Maria Ross arc; they dumbed that down big time. Breda pulling a gun out on Maria was cut for absolutely no reason whatsoever, except to simplify Mustang as 'the hero'. Like I said in the other thread, ARGH). But I would have preferred if Envy wasn't already defeated by Dr. Marcoh and the others. While I can understand this new fight being one-sided to emphasize Roy losing himself in vengeance, I'd rather it happen to an Envy who hasn't suffered so much defeat prior to this event. It seems... convenient somehow that Mustang is going all out against someone who has already been thoroughly defeated, someone who just happened to walk directly into Roy's path. I haven't seen episode 54 yet so it's possible my opinion of this portion will improve. |
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amarielah
Posts: 178 |
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Wait. spoiler[Didn't you just say before you edited this post that Roy was attacking Envy with far more power and ferocity than he did with Lust? I don't agree with every point made by dtm, but this one is valid. They should have either shown Roy practicing more restraint, or had him accidentally kill Envy. It's silly to have it both ways, given his comparative restraint with a much more powerful Lust.] |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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Well thank you for explaining that. A lot of times my response to criticism is how the criticism is delivered. Such as the post above mine. I admit I was probably a little rude, but I thought the original post was rude. And I do bring up those character points because for me they are always more important than the action. The action is pretty (especially animated) but it's not what makes me a fan of the series. So yeah it does bother me when people imply that FMA is just action/explosions because I entirely disagree with that.
This I can understand and I admit in some ways Envy's first defeat against Marcoh seems a bit wasted in the scheme of things. However I guess in both cases Marcoh and Roy had their own issues dealing with Envy. In Marcoh's case he finally stood up to Envy, who had mentally tortured him. In Roy's case it's the culmination of his dealing with Hughes' death and us finding out really what this did to him. As I made reference in the other thread he only thought "he wasn't mixing personal with business" and he indeed did take Hughes death way too personally that he forgot his true ambitions. I also don't necessarily think Marchoh defeating Envy means less because he came back. Marcoh still defeated Envy regardless of the later out. Also I will say that first defeat might be foreshadowing to something else about Envy's character. |
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