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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 1350

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:32 pm Reply with quote
getchman wrote:
i too think that Horizon is a very good show. very unique and likeable cast a of characters and a very well written story


Horizon in the Middle of Nowhere? I'm watching it now and it's one of those shows I'd start by describing with "It's not bad but..."

I don't hate it, really I can't but there's no depth. They don't even look like the same {well, they are different species, I guess} but they're still a unified class backing their respective pervert? Why? {Well, they wouldn't have a show then}.

It's outlandish, it's intelligent {yes, that's how I would have won that debate as well. That was ingenious and devious}, it's bouncy but it's also too wrapped up in telling the audience how awesome everything is.

Yes, telling, not showing.
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Svidrigailov



Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:43 pm Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
It's the subjectivity/objectivity that gets people excited. Dropping Descartes is not very safe either, especially on imageboards. Also this picture may ruin him forever for you.


Laughing

It would be difficult to ruin Descartes for me. I hold his Meditations--when his correspondence on duality with Elizabeth is included--to be one of the single most embarrassing works ever penned by a famous philosopher. His use was that 1) in thoroughly disproving himself, he essentially handed La Mettrie modern materialism, and 2) he unintentionally demonstrated why syllogistic logic is...well, poor logic. I mean I could go on for hours about everything that's wrong with his metaphysics. For the record, Deleuze and Guattari are my current brand of cerebral pulvarizer.
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Zump



Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:34 pm Reply with quote
I don't think Cowboy Bebop, FMA, Gurren Lagann, or Evangelion are the best anime ever. I love the first three and am kinda lukewarm on the fourth (I think it's well-made, but something about it rubs me the wrong way), but I don't think they're the greatest ever.

I think G Gundam is a very underrated show. I kinda wish somebody would try to make another Gundam series that deviates from the formula while still keeping the overall thematic elements of the franchise like G did. I actually wouldn't mind seeing another super robot Gundam show, but another tournament-based show.

I think Golgo 13: The Professional is one of the best anime Osamu Dezaki directed and an underrated anime overall. I'm glad Daryl Surat called attention to it on the 80's podcast, because the art direction in the film is top-notch. It used to get a lot of hate from the fandom, but I'm starting to notice more appreciation for it. Oh, and I think the complaints about the CGI helicopters are overblown because those helicopters are onscreen for not even two minutes.

I think Ghost Hunt is a terrible show with one-dimensional characters (the annoying bubbly schoolgirl, the bland bishonen who knows more than anyone else, the cool guy ("Monk"), the snob who's not as good as she thinks she is, the Rei Ayanami-esque creepy girl who also has no personality, the foreigner who speaks with a funny accent and has blonde hair to remind viewers that he's foreign, etc.) and cookie-cutter plots (possessed doll). The show is all drab and brown, and there's no tension or atmosphere. Also, the second story arc ends on a deus ex machina followed by clunky explanation of said deus ex machina.

I think Elfen Lied is a horrible, amateurish, poorly-written anime that thinks it's smarter than it is and features violence and nudity to give the false impression that it's mature ("SOOOO DARK AND EDGY, MAN"). Also, the Gustav Klimt artwork seems to have been stapled onto the OP more or less to say, "Yes, viewer. We (the production crew) know our art history. We smart!" It carries an air of pretention seldom found in other anime programs. It seems more intent on pelting the viewer with disturbing and tasteless imagery in a desperate attempt to make the viewer care about the characters rather than creating something resembling interesting characters. The assertion I've seen among fans of the show that it "defies/demolishes conventions of anime" strikes me as laughable, seeing as how manga authors/artists such as Go Nagai, Buronson, and Kazuo Koike pioneered adult storytelling and violence in manga long before Elfen Lied with titles such as Devilman, Fist of the North Star, and Lone Wolf and Cub (and did a much better job to boot). I have noticed that its popularity seems to be fading though, as it wasn't mentioned anywhere on the Revenge of the 2000s podcast not even as an honorable mention or on any of the user lists (I remember JesuOtaku calling someone out for labeling it as "mature and intelligent" on the forums though). Maybe time has told on this one? I think a lot of people only liked it for the same reason they liked Gundam Wing: because they had never seen anything like it before. Plus, I think a lot of them (READ: not all of them) were still in that "fanfiction.net/livejournal/teen angst" period of their lives. It certainly seems geared towards that audience despite being based on a seinen manga.

I liked the ending of Lupin III: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine, and I don't think it was a copout at all. I also think it's the best Lupin title in years.

I like Dragon Ball more than DBZ. It feels more like a cohesive story, and even the filler arcs are fun to watch and feel like they contribute something to the story (e.g., showing how Goku trains and improves his skills before tournament arcs). I also like it for the dirty old man humor (gotta love Muten Roshi).

I really don't care for Gunbuster or its sequel Diebuster. Gunbuster is well-made, but I really don't see what the big deal is. Maybe it's because I saw it after Gurren Lagann?

I have never been a fan of Hellsing, which is strange because I dig ultraviolent anime like Fist of the North Star and Mad Bull 34.

I couldn't get into Higurashi - When They Cry. The one clip I saw of the show (which featured a character being tortured) reminded me of the Gummi Bear sketch from Robot Chicken, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

I don't think Miyazaki is the best anime director who ever lived. I like his films though (Porco Rosso being my favorite).


Last edited by Zump on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:44 pm; edited 8 times in total
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 1974

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:20 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
You must not have seen "My Cousin Vinny" where Atty Vincent Laguardia Gambino's wife, Mona Lisa Vito states "That's a fact!" when asked if her statement that tire marks were made by a 1965 Pontiac Tempest and not a 1965 Buick Skylark, was an opinion or a fact.

So, it's a fact! Wink


Um....that has nothing to do with supporting your statement at all....


Svidrigailov wrote:
...but the tire marks--and Mona Lisa's analysis of the situation--are all objectively verifiable while what a "mind" is, how one classifies its presence or absence in a creative work, etc. are not.


Yes, this.
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guildmaster



Joined: 17 Dec 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Hot & Humid FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:19 am Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
Quote:
You must not have seen "My Cousin Vinny" where Atty Vincent Laguardia Gambino's wife, Mona Lisa Vito states "That's a fact!" when asked if her statement that tire marks were made by a 1965 Pontiac Tempest and not a 1965 Buick Skylark, was an opinion or a fact.

So, it's a fact! Wink


Um....that has nothing to do with supporting your statement at all....


Svidrigailov wrote:
...but the tire marks--and Mona Lisa's analysis of the situation--are all objectively verifiable while what a "mind" is, how one classifies its presence or absence in a creative work, etc. are not.


Yes, this.


You haven't figured it out yet.
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Svidrigailov



Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:45 am Reply with quote
What, that you were just making a joke? Otherwise, please enlighten me.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 1431

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:55 am Reply with quote
My biggest heretical anime opinion is that I think FLCL was mostly silly, meaningless, and perhaps a bit pretentious.

It's silly for obvious reasons. Haruko runs around at a mile a minute, bouncing off walls and speaking crazy talk pretty much non-stop. The whole situation between her and Naota's dad felt kind of gross in a way that seemed equivalent to potty humor. As far as her interactions with Naota, sure the whole thing with her hitting him on the head and having crazy stuff come out of him is funny and somewhat entertaining, but his reactions to her seem kind of fake. If some crazy space chick was hitting you on the head and forcing interdimensional objects to come out of you, would you still be having her staying with you and hanging out with you? Often, Naota will protest what she is doing but it is always fake protest, like the writers were thinking "He has to tell her to stop, but if he actually escaped from her abuse then we wouldn't have a show anymore, so lets just have him say 'no' and then come back for more punishment." It seems like the motivation behind creating Haruko was just to have this space chick who is as outrageous as possible, because extreme outrageousness is "cool."

As for the show being meaningless, I think FLCL was one of these creations where someone decided to take all of the coolest, wacky/off-the-wall ideas that had been floating around in their head and slap them all together in one product. The only consistent theme throughout the show is Naota being hit on the head and Canti coming out and blowing stuff up in spectacular fashion. Yes, it is a spectacle, and that can be fun to watch sometimes, however the rest of the show is just one sight gag or goofy Haruko scene after another, sometimes in rapid fire. The supposed "story" is highly convoluted, and yes some people interpret it as this grand "coming of age story," but I don't think it is ever made clear how exactly Naota came of age or how his character changed in a significant way. It seems more like the writing just relies on symbolism rather than storytelling to accomplish this. Naota is a somewhat normal angsty kid for the whole show, then at the end he's suddenly able to "swing the bat", so now he's a man? I just didn't see consistent growth in his character.

As for the pretentious part, that has mostly to do with the fact that the show is constantly marinating in its own "artsy coolness." Everything in the show is abstract, but abstract is cool and artsy, even if it often makes for convoluted storytelling. Haruko is super duper crazy and over the top, but super duper crazy and over the top characters become cool and artsy when they swing guitars and ride vespa scooters. Naota's dad is bizarre like Haruko, but he kind of looks like a hippie, so that's cool. This Amarao character from the Bureau of Interstellar Immigration is creepy, but he has fake big bushy eyebrows, and those are cool and artsy so they need to get as much screen time as possible...

I will say despite all of my criticism, I didn't hate the show. I've seen it a few times, and it is mildly entertaining, but I don't think it is nearly as good as a lot of people say.
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Thatguy3331



Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 1107

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:52 pm Reply with quote
I like Robotic;Notes a bit better than Psycho Pass...

I mean, PP is interesting, but I don't especially care for any of the characters whereas I do in R;N...

*puts up flame shield*
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danilo07



Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 1399

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:21 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Often, Naota will protest what she is doing but it is always fake protest, like the writers were thinking "He has to tell her to stop, but if he actually escaped from her abuse then we wouldn't have a show anymore, so lets just have him say 'no' and then come back for more punishment." It seems like the motivation behind creating Haruko was just to have this space chick who is as outrageous as possible, because extreme outrageousness is "cool."

It has been pretty much established that Haruko presents to Naota his link to the child inside,which he so desperately tries to get rid off but simply can't (do you see some symbolism here).
Quote:
The supposed "story" is highly convoluted, and yes some people interpret it as this grand "coming of age story," but I don't think it is ever made clear how exactly Naota came of age or how his character changed in a significant way. It seems more like the writing just relies on symbolism rather than storytelling to accomplish this. Naota is a somewhat normal angsty kid for the whole show, then at the end he's suddenly able to "swing the bat", so now he's a man? I just didn't see consistent growth in his character.

The whole point is he is on a line of manhood and childhood.He deosnt know which one to choose due to him witnessing what boring life adults have and what devastating effect staying a child can have(his dad).You can make an argument that his inner struggle was not portrayed well,but I thought it was.Perhaps you should rewatch the show with this in mind.
Quote:
As for the pretentious part, that has mostly to do with the fact that the show is constantly marinating in its own "artsy coolness." Everything in the show is abstract, but abstract is cool and artsy, even if it often makes for convoluted storytelling. Haruko is super duper crazy and over the top, but super duper crazy and over the top characters become cool and artsy when they swing guitars and ride vespa scooters. Naota's dad is bizarre like Haruko, but he kind of looks like a hippie, so that's cool. This Amarao character from the Bureau of Interstellar Immigration is creepy, but he has fake big bushy eyebrows, and those are cool and artsy so they need to get as much screen time as possible...

I disagree,I see the show as two dimensional.On the front you have this surreal comedy filled with amazing action and in the background this incredibly well written story of adolescence .Now that story of adolescence is told through this surreal comedy so I can see why somebody would have an impression that it is just randomness for the sake of randomness.But trust me when I say every detail in this anime is actually pretty important.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
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Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 2051
Location: Bellevue, WA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:03 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Naota is a somewhat normal angsty kid for the whole show, then at the end he's suddenly able to "swing the bat", so now he's a man?

I'm not sure how you can say that, since the last thing Haruko says to Naota is, "Forget it. You're still just a kid."

The issue was that Naota (and Ninamori as well) was acting like he was grown up... or how he thought grown-ups act, but it wasn't true: he *was* still just a kid. But in acting "grown-up" he was shutting himself off from his emotions. The more he came to terms with himself (which *is* a part of growing up), the more his N.O. Gate opened up. Eventually, it grew large enough that Atomsk could pass through it and escape from where Medical Mechanica had been keeping him.

The opposite is what happened to Amarao, who refused to grow up and whose gate never got any bigger (and might have actually shrunk).

I'm not saying your not entitled to your opinion, but at least parts of what you said are explicitly denied in the show.
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3477
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:16 pm Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
Both Kant in the Critique of Judgement and Hume in Treatise hold that aesthetic judgements do not talk about a property of the object (which beauty is not), so they're subjective (sure, it's more complicated than that). And I don't think that worries them much.

It would be a wiser summary to say they are only pro tanto subjective. As you'd agree, to be less specific than that is to do no justice to the Deduction of the third Critique or the 8th paragraph onwards—or thereabouts—of Of the Standard of Taste.
Zump wrote:
Maybe time has told on [Elfen Lied]? I think a lot of people only liked it for the same reason they liked Gundam Wing: because they had never seen anything like it before.

There is perhaps less of a cause to be zealous in the programme's defence than once there was, but its fans persist. I shall bring to your attention that a local distributor where I live has recently re-released this series for an above-average price, which is more than can be said about several more refrained titles.
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FloruOtaku



Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 19
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:16 pm Reply with quote
Elven Lied is a hodgepodge of wasted interesting ideas and psychological themes, instead exchanged for shock gore and fan service.
Wolf's Rain is a beautiful, complex gem with many great themes on the nature of survival, love, and corruption. For all its corniness, the shows overall quality makes up for it in dividends.

Sorry if I'm changing the subject a bit, just didn't really have anything to contribute to the conversation behind me.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 1974

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:37 pm Reply with quote
Svidrigailov wrote:
What, that you were just making a joke? Otherwise, please enlighten me.


Seconded.
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Ghost_Wheel



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:57 pm Reply with quote
I thought Geneshaft was both a great anime and a great modern work of science fiction.

It remains my personal favorite because I can watch it over and over again, take in the beauty of it, and be at a peace I don't often experience.

However, no one seems to know the show, and those who do often hate it.
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Parse Error



Joined: 09 Oct 2009
Posts: 378

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:22 pm Reply with quote
Zump wrote:
I think Elfen Lied is a horrible, amateurish, poorly-written anime that thinks it's smarter than it is and features violence and nudity to give the false impression that it's mature ("SOOOO DARK AND EDGY, MAN").

FloruOtaku wrote:
Elven Lied is a hodgepodge of wasted interesting ideas and psychological themes, instead exchanged for shock gore and fan service.

Wasn't this supposed to be the "Unpopular Anime Opinions" thread? Sorry, I just find it odd seeing as how I haven't heard anything but this about the show for many years now.

I think my take is the less popular one to mention aloud in public nowadays, which is that it's actually a pretty good show if you can enjoy both the cheesy sci-fi splatterfests of the 90s or late 80s, and melodramatic contrived tragedies along the lines of a Key VN. The frequent and vicious bashings it gets are completely disproportionate to its flaws and shortcomings, but do seem closely linked to its popularity, as is so often the case.

It's certainly no sophisticated masterpiece of fine art, but it does know how to push all the right buttons of a certain audience. Some anime fail to even accomplish that much, while still succeeding at having far worse writing and drastically lower production values. Of course, if it is indeed true that many fans try to push it as something more than it is, then I can understand the backlash, but again I haven't heard anyone speak positively of it at all for some time.

Chiibi wrote:
Seconded.

I think they were just wondering when people would get the joke they mentioned earlier.
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