Forum - View topicKids on the Slope (TV).
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Svidrigailov
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A warning: this post was initially a short response to a quote which metamorphosed unbeknownst to me into this panegyric on jazz. Feel free to disregard it, but having written it, I now feel obliged to post it. My condolences. (I think it is still pertinent to the premise of the series, and thus this thread, in that it demonstrates, albeit perhaps didactically--and digressively--how captivating jazz can be.)
Of course, though my trumpet player would disagree slightly (his favorite saying is "just play"). Jazz is hugely different than any other music, save Debussy, if in nothing else that improvisation is the main course; rather than most music preceding jazz whose entire performance is pre-engineered--or really any other type of music--jazz is founded on a few thematic passages or motifs who often serve as an initial point of departure from which point through various 'solos' (where really, except in the case of drums or bass[1], it's more of a 'feature') accentuate a musical experience which is both similar and entirely different in each incarnation. The swing drum patterns are unpredictable and as unique to the individual as their fingerprint, with a massive focus on texture from rampant ghost notes[2] to brush technique. There's quite a bit more, but I'll spare you the theory jargon I'd need to describe what's going on tonally, since I fear I've lapsed into a lecture (namely in my DFW-esque endnotes) and I apologize. [1] The drums usually legitimately solo, the band ceases. This allows for the drummer to change tempo, metre, dynamic, etc.--really an un-leashing of a generally subdued instrument*. There are notable exceptions like Papa Jo Jones (among others) whose solos continued from and led back into the piece seamlessly. Because of both the relative softness of the upright exacerbated by its low frequency, the band usually stops for the bass solo, though the drums will sometimes continue at p or pp. *I know 'subdued' isn't commonly associated with 'drums', but listen to some older Monk recordings (with Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers, for instance) where the drums will be something like the capitalization beginning a sentence and the punctuation embellishing it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cAnY_DyJB8&feature=related). This undergoes a violent paradigm shift in the modern era...take Erskine, for example, in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKWrJYvd0T8 [2] Ghost notes are very light textural notes played on the snare drum (in traditional grip, it's like a slight closing of the left hand). Peter Erskine is a phenomenal example of jazz technique, so I'll use him as a demonstration here as well (these videos will also serve to demonstrate the verisimilitude of this series):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUVoPyv5eAE&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLDAAB915C3C5881C5 Last edited by Svidrigailov on Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23773 |
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Wow, footnotes in a forum post - and an asterisk in a footnote! Ya don't see that every day.
 Thanks for that, though. I am a complete jazz ignoramus and this kind of info is not only inherently interesting, but will probably help me appreciate the show even more.
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Svidrigailov
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It's a bad habit acquired to combat my outrageously parenthetical thought processes.
Just remember you opened this can of worms... 
I'll try to keep my rants to a minimum, because I really think this series will have the educational aspect to it, hence it's direction. I removed an endnote on Debussy from the previous post for brevity...but, what the hell. See, in Debussy's peak years--late 19th century--incipient jazz was already practiced in Afro-American communities. Rhythmically, the swung note[1] became the medium where blues, diminished, pentatonic and whole-tone scales[2], the circle of fifths modified chromatically[3], difficult-to-sum-up concepts like polyrhythms, etc. all came together. Sans extensive theory talk about 7ths, 9ths, dissonance, etc., the early mood of jazz was present in Debussy (like the theme of a favorite piece of mine to play, "danseuses de Delphes": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxZ9ouCVpOM) or Gershwin's[4] Rhapsody in Blue, but what was missing? The rhythm, the drums--and specifically the explosive potential for creativity they possessed. So a heaping paragraph and four endnotes later we arrive at the relatively simple point which is that this series is demonstrating the evolution of jazz, an introduction to its evolution beginning with that pivotal influence of the drums. This is also, I assume, why the bass wasn't introduced yet: in fact the big band's bass lines were initially played by the tuba. The bass didn't become a staple of these groups until 1915-1930 or so, this a result of smaller groups and even smaller venues. Now you may ask, "Well then, why not the trumpet in episode one?" Because they're introducing you by section, starting with the backbone: the rhythm section--of which bass is a part, so I suspect that its introduction will be next followed by the trumpet...unless they play the "it sounds good, but there's something missing" card to introduce the soft flavor that was the bass, providing calm low-key ostinatos whose importance most notice only in its absence[5]. [1] Most western music focuses on binary subdivisions (1/2, 1/4, etc. notes) whereas the swung note is nearer (depending on the piece and player, it may not be a precise subdivision) a tertiary division (1/3, 1/6, etc. notes). If you count the triplet "one and uh two and uh" etc., the basic feel would be "one - - two - uh three - -four - uh one" etc. You'll hear this pattern on the ride (big ping-ey sounding cymbal) or hi-hat (two cymbals inverted on each other operated via foot pedal) often varied by short shuffle patterns ("one - uh two - uh three - uh four"). [2] The blues scale is difficult to explain, so I'll describe the pentatonic and whole-tone scales, both of which were hugely important to Debussy's music (and jazz, of course). The pentatonic scale, as the name implies, consists of five notes--for instance, all the black keys on a piano--and is typically considered eastern, as these are used extensively in Asian music (along with quartertones). The whole-tone scale, as its name implies, uses only whole tones. There are essentially only two whole-tone scales: C and C#. You know them from the characteristic "flashback" music ubiquitous throughout entertainment*. Debussy's prelude, "voiles", (the entirety of which is C whole-tone, save six measures of Db** major) is a good example:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrVyQhUM5C4 *-I'll spare you the diatribe about Debussy's influence on all thematic music (everything from the television to the cinema) to-date. Suffice to say, it would not be what it is. **-"b" = "flat". [3] A chromatic scale is every key on a piano (C chromatic = C, Db, D, Eb, E, F, Gb, G, Ab, A, Bb, B, C. Compare to C major = C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C). Separating each note in the chromatic scale is what we call a "half step", so when I refer to chromatic motion, I mean moving in half steps. The first three measures of "danseuses..." have chromatic motion on the interior of the chord. [4] Gershwin had a major initial influence on jazz, but I maintain that Debussy, through Monk, shaped the greater movement. If you're interested, I'd recommend listening to Debussy's preludes, book I (12 pieces) followed by Thelonious Monk (I always recommend his recordings with Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers) with a focus on the mood, or image-feelings evoked by the piano. [5] Last one, I promise. This is a digression, but still on the topic of jazz--I can't be blamed for the way my neurons fire. Charles Mingus (I was dubbed "Mingus" by a percussion instructor in my freshman year of HS which led to me listening to him) is probably my favorite old time bassist, just because he's like me in the love of music, multi-instrumentality and desire to explore the unexplored rather than erect monuments on what's already been done; not a particularly virtuous player (before the electric bass opened the doors to chops like John Pattitucci, Victor Wooten, Richard Bona, etc.) but like Debussy, stayed true to his path, refused to go with the flow--and his compositions showed it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__OSyznVDOY&feature=related. This is a great example of polyrhythm, among other things. As a brief aside, my favorite modern bassist is the late great Jaco Pastorius...no joke, the first song I learned on the bass was his "Portrait of Tracy." : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEs5sKDXZuk Sadly, in a world of would be Victor Wootens, not many bassists appreciate this kind of playing. Wow, this is humongous...well, for an anime forum. Again, I apologize. I swear I tried to exercise restraint. |
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dirkusbirkus
 Posts: 699 Location: Manchester, UK |
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Long though these posts may be, they're relevant to the anime at hand, so I for one enjoy reading them.
We have a bar here in Manchester named Matt and Phreds. Most nights of the week it's like an open mic night for jazz musicians. Four or five will start with whatever instrument they happen to bring along on the night, then after a few songs someone else will come up and play the drums, maybe the saxophonist will be replaced by a trumpeteer, the vocalist will give way to someone with a deeper tone, whatever. Whilst I'd never claim to know any of the technical aspects behind the music, these nights have taught me that more than other genres of music, jazz can seem more... 'alive', for want of a better word, and due to the improvisational nature of these jam sessions, it's as if you can hear the tune actually evolving onstage. These guys don't play with sheet music, some have never played with each other before. They establish the key and from that point on, anything goes. Jazz fascinates me in ways other genres cannot. I listen to a wide spectrum of music and oddly enough, I own no recorded jazz. Live, however, there's nothing quite like it. I wouldn't even class myself as a jazz 'fan' since I'm always observing from the sidelines. This anime pushes all the right buttons for me though, and if there's education involved along the way, I'm all for it. |
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Svidrigailov
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Take it back 8 years, I was a sophomore in high school and had been playing drums for 3 or 4 years at this point, focusing on jazz. My dad mentions that one of his coworkers plays keyboard, does gigs around the nearest downtown-esque city to me. Long story short, he says they're looking for a new drummer, I show up for the gig, we play, I'm in. At this point it was just a trio, drums, keys, and bass, but after a few gigs we pick up a trumpet (and exotic wind instruments) player, an occasional alto and soprano saxophonist, a small assortment of horn players for bigger gigs, and later on the prenominate guitarist. Everyone had day jobs, none of which were related to music (excepting our trumpet player who taught it and an occasional bassist who worked in a recording studio). We never had "practice", we just got together and played (ergo "Just play.") and that's just how it went. I'd go to this one bar downtown on Tuesdays which had an open jam, assuming I didn't have tons of homework. But yeah, it happens. I had a drummer friend, much more talented than I, who at the fresh age of 16 had already played with the likes of Chick Corea and Pat Metheny. |
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Alakazzam
Posts: 5 |
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I have to say that I enjoying the fist episode. This show is definitely unique and I gotta say that I liked the jazz music. Really, really looking forward to the next episode. I liked the characters and the animation. This show could be something special.
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naninanino
 Posts: 680 |
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I for one only see another school anime with a music theme and coming of age elements. Not particularly exciting either.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23773 |
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Yeah, but you have to have a modicum of taste and discernment to see the value of KotS. So you are basically screwed. May we suggest Naruto for you? That seems more your speed. |
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naninanino
Posts: 680 |
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They may try to mask it with jazz, but that's just not enough for me.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23773 |
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'Kay.
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Svidrigailov
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Care to develop this point? Because all I see are a few claims. Don't get me wrong, I'm open to a discussion and I'm not trying to be condescending or anything, but your keyword is "exciting." Excitement is not a theme of this series, so I would think it poor taste to judge for not having something it's not supposed to have. It most certainly is a school anime (which there have been quite a few of) with a music theme (fewer) and some play on the ubiquitous "coming-of-age." Granted, but can you identify for me another school anime based around jazz (or any music) with dialogue that doesn't suck humongous hairy balls, and, judging from the first episode (yes, it's good to remember that we've seen roughly 20 minutes of the series), characters who seem more interesting than cardboard silhouettes of caricatures? This level of verisimilitude? Please demonstrate for me what warrants your implication of cliche. |
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naninanino
Posts: 680 |
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What you're trying to say, is that supposed refinement would win over its mundanity and turn it into something else. If you want to look at it that way, power to you. As for myself? I won't.
It's not like I'm thinking that the anime is badly made in pure technical terms. That just doesn't happen to be my primary motive to watch a show. I deter no enjoyment thinking about the production issues of an anime. Nor do I care that much about its supposed realism (which is more of a negative in animation anyway). If I would, that would mean that the subject matter isn't really interesting enough in itself and I have to look for other reasons to watch it. |
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Svidrigailov
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What I'm trying to say is that your criticism of this show has not been instantiated, especially this new claim of being mundane (it should be noted that the renowned Michel Foucault made an incredible impact on modern social issues, namely the penal system, psychology, and the manifestations of power by a pointed focus on the mundane, so that criticism in and of it self has little substance). I asked you to cite a list of similar anime so as to qualify your implication that this show's cliche upon cliche, which you've splendidly failed to do. Further, you should clarify that the subject matter doesn't interest you and that you are, at least as far as this thread is concerned, an overwhelming minority. The logical fallacy of equating intersubjectivity to objectivity aside (an argument I don't expect you'd come up with on your own), it would appear that your opinion is, at best, unpopular--and what's more, due to your lack of any legitimate evidence to support your claims (and yes, that is all you've made as of this moment), entirely unfounded.
By the by, your syntax is rather forced and incongruous (you're trying too hard), but I'll leave off the grammatical errs as I'm tired and have undoubtedly made a few of my own. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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For the love of God, Blood, no one will listen to you if you act like you're the only one with taste. |
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naninanino
Posts: 680 |
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@Svidrigailov
I never agreed to give you any lists and certainly not by your made up criteria. That was just something you made up for some reason. I also never said that I'm some sort of critic. If you want to know, there was another Josei title dealing with music (Nodame Cantabile) and I didn't think too highly of that either. And I already said that this is my view in all my posts: "I for one..." & "...for me." I also said: "I won't." Notice all the "I", "me" and "my", that I used? No, you didn't. Not to mention you shouldn't expect people to include even as much as I did in the first place, when going to forums. Maybe you should get less defensive and stop spouting elitist junk and read what is in front of you. New claim of being mundane? That was obviously referenced in my two posts already. I'm not hot for animation to make things appear worldly and normal. Anime is just the wrong medium to explore that. So if you want to know, I couldn't care less how well the show is made, how "good" the dialogue is or are the characters stereotypes. It was dead on arrival, because it is limited to be about things I don't care for. It may be better than most school anime exploring the turmoils of youth, but that will never be enough to make me care. Of course I already knew all this before watching, but decided to give it a chance just for the heck of it. As for grammar mistakes? Well, I am not a native speaker, my browser doesn't have spellcheck and I'm slightly drunk. Not that it is an excuse, but a reason nonetheless. |
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