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Hey, Answerman! - Phony Baloney

Nobody hates BioWare because their games are deliberately moe-centric, yet many people hate Anime that is moe-centric.

Do you see the discrepancy here?

krystallinity wrote:

Nobody hates BioWare because their games are deliberately moe-centric, yet many people hate Anime that is moe-centric. Do you see the discrepancy here?

A part of that could be that its physically impossible to play all the games release in a year, while its in the realm of possibility for one person to watch all the anime released in a season, assuming they have convenient access to the content. 50 episodes a week would be under 25 hours ... less than 4 hours a day.

Now, it might be considered silly to do that, but the fact remains that if 10 series in a season are right up your alley, then with what feels like a smaller supply, its a lot easier to fantasize "if only that didn't make that stuff, I'd have more to watch".

That is only boosted by the fact that when someone first gets into anime, there is such a big back catalog to watch their way through, that its quite easy to get into the habit of watching more of the kind of stuff you like in a three month period than is actually normally produced in a three month period. So when you run into catchupitis, its like, "wait, it felt like there was more of the good stuff".

Underneath a good fraction of the animosity is likely to be the particular "if only they weren't making that stuff, they'd be making the stuff I like" fan delusion.

So basically you're telling me that the reason for moe hatred is not because of underlying taboos, but because of over-saturation within the market?

I guess then we'd have to point to the reason why over-saturation of moe is inherently a bad thing.

Why aren't moe characters perceived as "normal" characters in Anime? Why don't some Westerners like watching moe Anime? Is it because the characters are stylized in a certain way that's annoying? Is it because some Western fans are uncomfortable with their thought of a "limited" definition of moe (devotion to pre-pubescent girls)?

I really don't think the inclusion of moe limits the potential of storylines; as others have pointed out, we've found moe everywhere from slice-of-life stories, to existential, dystopian Science Fiction epics.

Instead, I believe it's the nature of underage characters--the fact that pre-pubescent looking girls are taking the place of more adult-looking characters--and the current association with moe and underage characters that makes some westerners uncomfortable with its over-saturation, as the delusional definition gets connected with Western taboos.

agila61 wrote:

krystallinity wrote: Nobody hates BioWare because their games are deliberately moe-centric, yet many people hate Anime that is moe-centric. Do you see the discrepancy here? A part of that could be that its physically impossible to play all the games release in a year, while its in the realm of possibility for one person to watch all the anime released in a season, assuming they have convenient access to the content. 50 episodes a week would be under 25 hours ... less than 4 hours a day. Now, it might be considered silly to do that, but the fact remains that if 10 series in a season are right up your alley, then with what feels like a smaller supply, its a lot easier to fantasize "if only that didn't make that stuff, I'd have more to watch". That is only boosted by the fact that when someone first gets into anime, there is such a big back catalog to watch their way through, that its quite easy to get into the habit of watching more of the kind of stuff you like in a three month period than is actually normally produced in a three month period. So when you run into catchupitis, its like, "wait, it felt like there was more of the good stuff". Underneath a good fraction of the animosity is likely to be the particular "if only they weren't making that stuff, they'd be making the stuff I like" fan delusion.

So basically you're telling me that the reason for moe hatred is not because of underlying taboos, but because of over-saturation within the market?

I guess then we'd have to point to the reason why over-saturation of moe is inherently a bad thing.

Why aren't moe characters perceived as "normal" characters in Anime? Why don't some Westerners like watching moe Anime? Is it because the characters are stylized in a certain way that's annoying? Is it because some Western fans are uncomfortable with their thought of a "limited" definition of moe (devotion to pre-pubescent girls)?

I really don't think the inclusion of moe limits the potential of storylines; as others have pointed out, we've found moe everywhere from slice-of-life stories, to existential, dystopian Science Fiction epics.

Instead, I believe it's the nature of underage characters--the fact that pre-pubescent looking girls are taking the place of more adult-looking characters--and the current association with moe and underage characters that makes some westerners uncomfortable with its over-saturation, as the delusional definition gets connected with Western taboos.

I have never, ever seen moe used as a reference to character devotion in mature video games like Mass Effect, or mature television shows like Star Trek.

Question: If moé is a subculture word, and the subculture is what we're discussing, why does that matter at all?

Probably because you don't discuss those things with people who have the otaku vocabulary.

The term "moe" is not typically used outside of the "anime subculture" but the emotion is the same. I grew very attached to Jack Bauer while watching 24, and the constant fear they would kill him off didn't help. Now it would seem odd to call that moe but it is the same feeling I have for say Saber from the Fate/ franchise.

Why aren't moe characters perceived as "normal" characters in Anime? Why don't some Westerners like watching moe Anime? Is it because the characters are stylized in a certain way that's annoying? Is it because some Western fans are uncomfortable with their thought of a "limited" definition of moe (devotion to pre-pubescent girls)?

I am aware of golf terminology, but I don't use golf euphemisms to describe my reactions to anime. That would be silly.

Let me create a topic on the BSN that says "I hate Mass Effect because their characters are too moe-oriented," and let's see how many hundreds of people tell me that I made a stupid topic.

But if I created a topic here that says "I hate K-ON because their characters are too moe-oriented," I'd get people who agree with me, because apparently having devotion to a character who isn't of age yet "is a horrible thing."

Also, no one compared Mass Effect to K-On, until you did.

Let me create a topic on the BSN that says "I hate Mass Effect because their characters are too moe-oriented," and let's see how many hundreds of people tell me that I made a stupid topic.

But if I created a topic here that says "I hate K-ON because their characters are too moe-oriented," I'd get people who agree with me, because apparently having devotion to a character who isn't of age yet "is a horrible thing."

And honestly, should we really care about some tragic past or other "character building" things for some moeblob? I know I don't, since thats not what they're made for.

Question: If moé is a subculture word, and the subculture is what we're discussing, why does that matter at all?

Even past that, what about being a subculture word means it no longer has the right to exist?

Anyone, one thing that I wanted to touch upon was that someone keep saying, "You didn't watch X so you can't pass judgement on it, and you're being closed-minded for not spending your time limited watching it!" I disagree with that statement.

I don't like eggs. Never liked the taste. Can't tell you why, as the science of what appeals to people's tastes isn't my jurisdiction.

One day I decide to eat out for lunch. A waiter approaches me and say, "Today you can get either an egg sandwich or a chicken pot pie." I believe this is an odd menu for a restaurant, but even so, I think about my options. On one hand, I don't like eggs, as I've previously discussed. And I love chicken pot pie. On the other hand, these eggs might be prepared differently. Maybe, against all odds, they don't taste like eggs.

"What does the eggs sandwich taste like?" I ask.

"Oh," says the waiter, "very much like eggs. It has a very specific eggy taste that you'll love if you love eggs."

Well, I don't love eggs, so I reason that I'll take the chicken pot pie. I only have enough time during break to eat one, after all. The waiter gives me an accusing look. "You're not even going to try the eggs sandwich?" he asks.

"No. I know what eggs taste like, and I know I don't like them. And you just said it tasted like eggs."

"Yes, but you might like those eggs. You should get it."

Against my better judgement, I get the egg sandwich. The egg sandwich is Lucky Star, and I do not like it at all.

For the purpose of this example, I decide to go back to the same restaurant the next day. Maybe there are no other restaurants close enough for me to get back to work by the time lunch break ends. Whatever. Anyway, the waiter again presents me with a chicken pot pie and an egg sandwich. Having learned better (and having the experience of years of not liking eggs), I tentatively ask how the chicken pot pie is.

"Mediocre," the waiter says, giving me a superior look.

"I'll take it," I say. That chicken pot pie is indeed mediocre, but it's a lot better than the egg sandwich.

I come back the next day, somewhat more confident about the restaurant's standards. Again I am presented with an egg sandwich and a chicken pot pie. "The pie is excellent today," the waiter assures me, "but the egg sandwich has new seasonings and toppings and it's totally reinvented."

"But... does it still taste like eggs?" I ask.

The waiter scoffs. "Of course. The reason why people buy this egg sandwich is because it tastes like eggs. We might have dressed it up a bit, but it is definitely still an egg sandwich. And you should get it."

I still don't like eggs, though. And even if this sandwich is ostensibly new and improved, it was still made with egg-lovers in mind. It is, at its core, a very eggy product, no matter what you sprinkle on it.

"I think I'll take the pot pie," I say.

First things first: I don't think you can tell people what they "get" to have an opinion on. How it works is that people have opinions, and you decide whether they're valid to your discussion or not. You can't stop people from thinking what they think about things, or adding their two cents to the discussion.

I'm not going to comment on OreImo itself, but I believe I'm allowed to comment on the themes and some of the tropes it used if I've experienced those same tropes before

BUt if you're talking about how sexy X is and why don't more shows have girls like her, I might be able to rustle up some steaming , fresh-from-the-oven opinions for you.

And they might not be able to comment of specific characters or pull out particular scenarios, but they can sure as hell pick Bella and Edward's relationship apart all they please. Perhaps not as well as those who've read the book, but they can to some extent. I mean, "and then he watched her sleep, and tore the engine out of her car," is a topic that most people could comment on, regardless of whether or not they've read the book.

It's not exactly cool to go storming into a dedicated thread and start whining about a series you've never watched. I'd never raid a Twilight forum. That's time I could spend doing important things, like cleaning the lint out of my jacket pockets. But right here we're not talking about a specific show: we're talking about themes, tropes, archetypes, etc: and I think pretty much any background is fair game here.

That egg sandwich is moe. I don't have to taste it to know that I don't like eggs. I'm only going to be disappointed if I eat it, and if I do I'm going to be wasting time that I could be using to eat chicken pot pies of varying quality that I'll still like better than the eggs. This is not Schrodinger's anime. It's not, "oh, I'll never know now!". I can clearly see what's inside the box, and I don't like it. Again, I've got a better handle on what I do and do not like more than anyone I know. I'm me, after all. There are some things I'm a little more fluid with (I generally don't eat cheese, but I suppose it's good on certain things), but there are other things that I have a very good idea that I will or will not like, and it's a bit silly to tell me "you don't know!" when I actually do.