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REVIEW: Puella Magi Madoka Magica Vol. 3 Blu-ray

I find that unlikely. The current system works fine, its not as efficient as the old one, but its quite likely far more consistent and reliable.

The Incubators have no motivation to mess with a system that works perfectly fine. That would not, after all, be logical.

Quote:

I think the main problem with the ending is that a full understanding of it relies on supplemental materials unavailable to us casual viewers, who only watched the show.

I have to disagree here. A sufficient understanding of the ending requires only a sufficient understanding of the rest of the show and perhaps some discussion. I have not played the PSP games, read the manga, read the guidebooks, etc.; I've arrived at my understanding of the show through multiple viewings (and hours spent translating/checking the dialog) and many hours of reading and writing discussion about the show. Everything you need to unravel the story is there in the show, it just may require more than one viewing (and a rune translation sheet) to find. That's part of the fun.

The Madoka wiki facts and speculah pages, forum discussions, etc. were constructed/held during the airing of the show based on facts and speculation about things in the show, pretty much exclusively.

So, I agree that a casual viewer who only watched the show once may be missing some details (I think even the very attentive viewer will, for that matter), but I think they're there in the show, even if they're not always as well presented as they maybe could be (for example, Kyoko's character development).

5) On the topic of the English dub... I still haven't seen episodes 9-11 in English, but I watched the final episode's niconico broadcast. If I have any right to judge, based on the performance of episodes 1-8 and the actual ending of the series (where everything came together)... I think the dub passes. I would definitely show it to someone unwilling to watch subtitled anime, and I wouldn't mind it being on television for the mainstream public either (regardless of whatever insanely stupid Western culture phenomenon comes out of it... or doesn't come out of it...). It's certainly presentable when you get past the whole "script has been directly translated from the Japanese with little concern over casual smoothness in English 80% of the time--10% of the opposite case being some awkward changes that give the wrong impression of the scenes/themes/setting" thing. But... it's not outstanding.

From the beginning, there are a few well-acted scenes, and I see how the English voice actresses really fit the voice in comparison with the Japanese voice actresses. Yet, I just can't help but feel like the actresses were reading from a script most of the time. I mean, I could feel emotion in some scenes, but the overall awkwardness of the voice type in English really irked me. For a while there, I considered that they might want to switch the roles of Christina Vee (Homura) and Carrie Keranen (Mami). In the final episode, when Madoka spoiler[[s]friendzoned[/s] confronted Homura in the space-time-dimension-world-thingy-place], her voice sounded monotone most of the time, rather than spoiler[pleasantly convicted to her chosen destiny]. And when the spoiler[universe changed], Homura became extremely flat and monotone (sounds fitting when I say it like that, but her vocals aren't monotone in the Japanese dub--they're full of subtle changes in tone to sound very purposefully high-strung and confident).

But... I took my Homura-Mami-voice-switch thing back when I got to the last episode broadcast and experienced Christina Vee's spoiler[emotional] performance as Homura. HOLY MACRO, I felt goosebumps with that performance. I hate to admit it, but from what I can remember, I think I just about submitted to feeling like she did a better job in that scene than Saito did--and Saito did an amazing job, too! But Christina Vee pulled off so much emotion in her performance that even the awkwardly-written script didn't ruin it for me. The tears suddenly started flowing and I was confused as all heck. My heart was shattered... I shudder just thinking about it, though my brain might just be messing with my memories a bit and glorifying it a little. Either way, I can't deny all the feelings I had at the time. Stunning! /and then she went back to being monotone. The end.

The one thing I was worried about from episodes 7 and 8 in the dub was spoiler[the change from the ever-inclusive themes of "hope" and "despair" to "good" and "bad"]. If they had stuck to that (somehow) in the final episode, I would have failed the dub immediately. There are some things you can change in an English dub to adapt to the audience, but... with such a direct translation of the Japanese (including an exaggeration of the direct Japanese when Hitomi shouted something about homosexuals in one of the first two episodes), I just don't see how those two themes could be troublesome to cover. It felt like they were dumbing it down a notch. Of course, that itself doesn't break the dub, but... of all terms to choose from to change, they chose the two that were central to the entire series and even the creator's life! I don't get it! Why?

Sub script:
If you wish for hope, an equal amount of despair will rain down upon you too.
That’s how the world stays in equilibrium, and the world’s balance doesn’t get disturbed.

Dub script:
If you wish for something good to happen, a whole lot of bad stuff’s gonna happen too. I guess that’s how the world stays in balance. Good, bad, everything zeroes out.

[...] First, do we know if the script adapter worked off the translation of the subtitles, or did he work off of some other translation? If the former, maybe it was also a case of the translated dialogue not sounding natural “enough” when spoken—“wishing” and “hope,” even being grammatically correct, sound somewhat redundant, and “despair will rain down upon you” sounds better on paper than aloud. Of course a less awkward way might have been attempted, but who knows what went through the minds of the people that handled or saw the dub script. ADR may have just simply not seen the nuances inherent in hope and despair in this scene… and honestly, if I haven’t read so much stuff said by Urobuchi, whether magazine interviews or that one article in which he mentioned 9/11 (I believe it was that latter one where he especially talked about one’s hope becoming another’s despair), I might’ve not come to think about the nuances of the terms much. Heck, I really didn’t have a coherent grip on the nuances of hope and despair until you and Juno elaborated on it here; my initial gripe was only “good” and “bad” sounding less eloquent, after all.

Also-- in the exact context of the moment, ignoring how the deliberately said concepts of hope and despair prop up the narrative for later on, the script seems to work a bit more than I had thought. “Good” and “Bad” are used primarily in an adjectival sense by Kyoko—“something good” and “bad stuff,” so they don’t hold the same meaning to me as good itself and bad/evil itself.

Maybe it really is nitpickiness after all… :p

But the final episode brought back the original two terms (which confused me even more, ironically--I mean, why change it back now?). It saved my personal opinion of the dub from dropping drastically.

But yeah. I'll be able to judge it a little better when I raise enough personal funds to re-order the final limited edition again (on top of the Ultimate Madoka figure, if I can make it in time. I haven't even gotten my first paycheck for the summer... so I'm kinda worried that I won't make it before all the discounted opportunities are gone...).

bhl88 wrote:

@nozu: And Kyubey cannot lie here, as he will have to tell the girls that they will disappear.

Kyubey doesn't necessarily lie. He just leaves out a lot of information that we as humans would find important, but in his spoiler[alien] mind is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Her body isn't dead, it's just soul-less. It still seems to function but she can't die if it dies.[/spoiler] If they had given more of a clear reason why she couldn't be with him it would have made more sense to me - like if he had figured out this whole magical girl thing and cast her away, or if her rival for his attention had figured it out and convinced him that she was some kind of freak.

Since I still was emotionally affected by her story, it didn't kill it for me. I still liked her story, but I do think that was one area it could have been improved.

Another thing - going back to the ending... it seemed like another unexplained plothole spoiler[that Madoka's baby brother still remembered her, despite the fact that Homura was supposed to be the only one who did.] I don't know if this was the writer's attempt to give us some emotional fan service or something. To be honest, yes it worked on me and I felt something, but I also felt like it was kind of a cheap trick.

Having thought some more about dandelion_rose's idea about the ending, I feel that has merit but it still doesn't make this an A+ show for me. For me, an A+ show grabs you up, puts you through an emotional and/or action packed roller coaster, then doesn't let you go until long after the ending. Cowboy Beebop was an A+ show for me. Death Note was an A+ show. Even though I didn't love FLCL, the ending of it was good enough that it could have been A+ if the rest of the show had been more coherent. Madoka grabbed me up and put me through an emotional roller coaster, and then right before the roller coaster got to the big finish I was told to get off. If Madoka really does serve to revitalize the magical girl genre in some way, maybe it's rating will improve with me if it has a lasting (and positive) impact on future shows. But right now, standing on its own, I just can't say I agree that it's A+ material because at the end all of the creative risks and subversions which were building to a peak were pulled back for the sake of the comfort of the audience.

On a side note, since I brought up Claymore before, I wonder how much people think Gen Urobuchi borrowed some of his ideas and themes from Claymore for PMMM. Obviously, the whole heroine reaching a limit and becoming ultimate evil thing is a key component of both shows. Both shows deal with human girls who voluntarily went through some kind of irreversible procedure which makes them into... something else. I suppose in Claymore, the evil girls were a bit more interesting because they still had some amount of their sentience remaining, whereas in PMMM they just kind of go totally insane. Also, in Claymore the "limit" reached is more of a pleasure, almost sexual euphoria, where in PMMM it is dispair. I'm sure there are many other ways the two could be compared, and it would be interesting to see a more full study.

The show gave me no yuri vibes. But then I tend to not be looking for that sort of thing.

As for the yuri subtext, I can see that it's certainly intended by the creators*, but to me the characters don't lend that way. Sayaka and Kyoko's affections are too thin for me, and Homura and Madoka's don't really lean that way to me either.

I like yuri (more importantly, I like yuri that I can personally relate to, and that is extremely hard to find) but I think PMMM works well (if not better) without thinking of the yuri undertones.

* character songs and fan-teasing official images aren't canon.

*see above for reply*

dtm42 wrote:

It was love but it wasn't Yuri. That's how I see it.

I know what you mean, but that's a very confusing statement.

Fencedude5609 wrote:

I find that unlikely. The current system works fine, its not as efficient as the old one, but its quite likely far more consistent and reliable. The Incubators have no motivation to mess with a system that works perfectly fine. That would not, after all, be logical.

Regarding the systems: Yeah basically spoiler[ the old system had huge but inconsistent payloads of emotional energy while under the new system the payoffs are smaller but come more regularly based on the way Kyubey was eating(?)/storing those cubes.]

I don’t disagree that it’s unlikely that the Incubators would mess with things for no reason but if I were Homura I still wouldn’t have told Kyubey. Granted they have no reason now but things change. But that’s just wild speculation on my part and has no baring on the story being told.

Veers wrote:

Quote: I think the main problem with the ending is that a full understanding of it relies on supplemental materials unavailable to us casual viewers, who only watched the show. I have to disagree here. A sufficient understanding of the ending requires only a sufficient understanding of the rest of the show and perhaps some discussion. I have not played the PSP games, read the manga, read the guidebooks, etc.; I've arrived at my understanding of the show through multiple viewings (and hours spent translating/checking the dialog) and many hours of reading and writing discussion about the show. Everything you need to unravel the story is there in the show, it just may require more than one viewing (and a rune translation sheet) to find. That's part of the fun.

I agree, but at the same time, it isn't PingDrum. By that, I mean that you can watch casually and still have a good (if not profound) experience. Indeed, it took a second viewing to fully capture everything, but I thoroughly enjoyed my first viewing. Also, the episode count is such that it isn't exactly onerous to expect somebody to give it a second time through.

I think the thing with this story is that everything is happening too fast. But in the way that it stresses the characters in the story, not just in the short 12 episode format.

Gah... Ultimate Madoka or Limited Edition #3...

My problem with that theory is that spoiler[Incubators can't risk an all out war with Madoka]

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

Another thing - going back to the ending... it seemed like another unexplained plothole spoiler[that Madoka's baby brother still remembered her, despite the fact that Homura was supposed to be the only one who did.] I don't know if this was the writer's attempt to give us some emotional fan service or something. To be honest, yes it worked on me and I felt something, but I also felt like it was kind of a cheap trick.

I respectfully disagree. The thing is, the creators already said Madoka's brother spoiler[ will forget all about Madoka upon growing up, much like the way it's thought that kids with imaginary friends will lose their memory of such things when they grow up]. Plus, the bonds of the family probably has something to do with it, all things considered. If it was just some totally random child who remembers Madoka, that would not make any sense as I see it.

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

Having thought some more about dandelion_rose's idea about the ending, I feel that has merit but it still doesn't make this an A+ show for me. For me, an A+ show grabs you up, puts you through an emotional and/or action packed roller coaster, then doesn't let you go until long after the ending. Cowboy Beebop was an A+ show for me. Death Note was an A+ show. Even though I didn't love FLCL, the ending of it was good enough that it could have been A+ if the rest of the show had been more coherent. Madoka grabbed me up and put me through an emotional roller coaster, and then right before the roller coaster got to the big finish I was told to get off. If Madoka really does serve to revitalize the magical girl genre in some way, maybe it's rating will improve with me if it has a lasting (and positive) impact on future shows. But right now, standing on its own, I just can't say I agree that it's A+ material because at the end all of the creative risks and subversions which were building to a peak were pulled back for the sake of the comfort of the audience.

I personally disagree a bit considering both Death Note and Cowboy Bebop didn't really leave much to the imagination. Stuff like Madoka where they leave a lot to the imagination plus the possibility of many realities and universes and types of mages/incubators/witches etc, it leaves a lot to future speculation. All of which is very valid. That said, I do think those shows you mentioned are classics, but I think Madoka is one for differing reasons. In that the show revels more in mysteries and emotions and the intangibles more so than something that spells it all out like Death Note does for example.

That said, I think the reason why Madoka serves as a positive for all magical girl shows is that if you think about it, Madoka's ending is reminiscent of spoiler[ all those magical queens/princesses with unlimited power and are basically goddesses in the magical girl shows' universes. It is in effect, an origin story for one of those magical girl princesses of the universe. These kinds of origin speculation happens in all magical girl shows. But Madoka finally puts it on the forefront. And it enriches the entire genre for it in terms of speculation. Now there's no telling just how saddening and torturous it must have been for some magical girl queens/princesses to have that kind of ultimate power]

Quote:

Homura so loved Madoka

Can we have a single anime where two female characters can be friends without everyone thinking they want to secretly screw?

Chagen46 wrote:

Quote: Homura so loved Madoka Can we have a single anime where two female characters can be friends without everyone thinking they want to secretly screw?

There are tons of anime where female characters are friends and have no sexual desire toward one another. Love and sex are not the same, and yuri is more likely to deal with emotional love than sexual.

Perhaps it is time to put shounen battle shows under the microscope?