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egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
Posts: 7762
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:56 pm Reply with quote
Polycell wrote:
They're both being racist jerks.


And someone who insults politicians is anti-democracy? That's the army, and they have reasons to be angry at each other. Racism is about hating a person for their ethnicity, not country of birth. You're thinking of discrimination.

All these laws protecting coloured people really made the masses even more soft and shallow when it comes to definitions.
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Yttrbio



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 3652
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:05 pm Reply with quote
WhiteHairGirls wrote:
But I do agree they both deserve each other, as I might not be the only one here thinking,"OMG both of you just shut up and sleep together already." But that only happens in American shows lol.
Hardly. That's the obvious endgame here, and Mechanic-san said exactly what you were thinking.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:17 am Reply with quote
egoist wrote:
And someone who insults politicians is anti-democracy? That's the army, and they have reasons to be angry at each other. Racism is about hating a person for their ethnicity, not country of birth. You're thinking of discrimination.

All these laws protecting coloured people really made the masses even more soft and shallow when it comes to definitions.
Racism is a subclass of "discrimination". While Yuuya's probably not technically fitting the definition, Yui sure as hell is.
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egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
Posts: 7762
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:32 am Reply with quote
Polycell wrote:
Racism is a subclass of "discrimination". While Yuuya's probably not technically fitting the definition, Yui sure as hell is.


Do tell me how much she has insulted the other American so far. Let's not mention technicalities, as you're clearly applying the terms very loosely here.

And I really doubt that a racist would spoiler[recognize the target of the racism, and much less try to teach them as she did this episode. Not to mention to entrust the future of her country's project on the hands of a person she should consider a lesser being. ]

And I don't even think there's discrimination going on here. To me it just looks like they're throwing whatever insult comes to mind, and using their nationality has more of an impact than calling them ugly (and let's face it, they were probably reserving this kind of insult for the childish pilot to use on others), because I really don't see many other ways to insult each other, considering they barely met.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:37 am Reply with quote
She's entirely hung up on the fact that he's genetically half-Japanese and continually derides him for failing to act Japanese. How is that not racist?
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Eivion



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 569
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:31 pm Reply with quote
EmbraceMe wrote:
Polycell wrote:
They're both being racist jerks. Yes, Yui's right that spoiler[he should learn how to use a weapon how it's meant to be used], but she's also the one who keeps making a deal out of his bloodline.


I agree that they're both sort of racist but I think it is more of nationalism on Yui's part. She just has too much YAMATO DAMSHII so it's very annoying. I can understand Yuuya's "racism" because of his childhood but Yui keeps instigating arguments with him because of her nationalism. Yuuya's just bitter about his heritage due to spoiler[ his father abandoning him and his mother. Plus he was bullied because of his heritage.]

In fact, Yui also insults Yuuya and blames him. Yui refuses to accept Yuuya's criticisms of the TSF and blames him for lacking skill. Yuuya's job as a test pilot is to point out the flaws of the machine but Yui just disregards it and tells him to "get over it". Her leadership is questionable.

I'm sorry, but this is a humongous load of bs. I get that you like Yuuya, but please don't try to excuse his racism. His crappy childhood doesn't excuse his racism. It doesn't matter if you understand why he is racist towards the Japanese, he is still completely in the wrong with the attitude he has shown.

And Yui also rightfully called bs on Yuuya's criticisms of the machine as worse pilots have done much better with worse machines. Its a matter difference of styles and Yuuya's own refusal to adapt as to why he kept crashing so hard.

EmbraceMe wrote:
Nothing really happens until the second half of the episode. There's the same arguments between Yuuya and Yui. Yui does raise a good point with her comment: spoiler["A man and his horse are one."] While I understand the philosophy behind that saying, I think it's a bit stupid because of Yui's past actions. Sure, you've got to understand a machine to handle it but when you give the test pilot nothing to help him understand the machine, how does that work out?

Yuuya was too busy acting like a racist ass to give her the time of day outside of complaining. She might have given him advice if he didn't start to crap on her country. Simply put he wasn't anywhere near ready to listen, and Yui herself lost her patience with him the first few times they argued.

Polycell wrote:
She's entirely hung up on the fact that he's genetically half-Japanese and continually derides him for failing to act Japanese. How is that not racist?

Actually she did this only once. And I don't think Yui is so much a racist or heavy nationalist so much as she recognized a weak spot in Yuuya and aimed for the jugular. All she basically did was use Yuuya's own racism against him since its obvious he would have some level of self-loathing due to his being half-Japanese while hating the Japanese.
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egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
Posts: 7762
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:37 pm Reply with quote
I don't care if you're that moved by what you consider racism in a fictional work, keep it civilized so that we may be able to discuss it.

And no, you're not sorry you little hypocrite.
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Eivion



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 569
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:46 pm Reply with quote
Your right in that I'm not sorry since I have no idea where I wasn't being civilized. I'm particularly consfused on where I was a hypocrite.
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LordByron227



Joined: 12 Feb 2011
Posts: 158
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:14 pm Reply with quote
@Elvion

While I would admit Yuuya was not being diplomatic/professional with his criticisms of the Japanese TSFs, it is his right as a Test Pilot to offer his opinions and criticisms of the machine he's testing. Yui was not right in dismissing his legitimate criticisms about Japanese machines being too finecky by just saying "Lulz, cadets do betters".

It definately seems as though design philosophy in the series is essentially based off of WWII air doctrine. The Japanese fighters had the problem of being only particularly maneuverable at low speeds and had low survivability and thus required very experienced pilots to fly. This, as opposed to the American design philosophy of faster, better armored, and better armed aircraft, allowed for at least competant handling by newbies and allowed them to build a very effective corp of pilots as they could rotate veterans to training stints.
Like Yuuya said, a TSF that requires a veteran pilot to get any proper use out of it is a "flying coffin" for any new pilots, especially so against an enemy thats already on your shores and thus you would lack sufficient training.
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Eivion



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 569
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:15 pm Reply with quote
Here is the problem with that argument. The machine Yuuya originally complained about wasn't a test machine. It was a machine already in normal use by the Japanese army. He was only using it for practice to prepare him for the new machine. Yui and her friends from the academy used similar machines and were much more capable than Yuuya was. Its why his argument kind of failed badly as despite his experience he barely compared to a rookie. Yuuya never even questioned if maybe it was his own abilities. He just decided that his poor performance was because of the machine despite worse pilots being able to use it fine.
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Yttrbio



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 3652
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:37 pm Reply with quote
I don't know if "able to use it fine" is how I'd describe what took place in the first two episodes.
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Eivion



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 569
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:40 pm Reply with quote
They were more outstrategized and outgunned than their ability to use the machine sucking.
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Yttrbio



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 3652
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:50 pm Reply with quote
Oh, boo hoo, circumstances aren't in their favor. It's not that different from Yuuya's complaint. My point is that if you want to lecture someone on how ineffective they are in a machine compared to group X, maybe group X should have a number of successful missions that exceeds zero.
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Eivion



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 569
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:09 pm Reply with quote
Matters of circumstance and matters of abilites are completely different things.
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EmbraceMe



Joined: 17 Dec 2010
Posts: 2013
Location: Growing old and jaded.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:18 pm Reply with quote
Eivion wrote:
It doesn't matter if you understand why he is racist towards the Japanese, he is still completely in the wrong with the attitude he has shown.

And Yui also rightfully called bs on Yuuya's criticisms of the machine as worse pilots have done much better with worse machines. Its a matter difference of styles and Yuuya's own refusal to adapt as to why he kept crashing so hard.


I agreed that Yuuya was snobbish and acted unprofessional but that doesn't make his criticisms moot. Even if the machine isn't a test machine, Yuuya's role as a test pilot is to point the flaws. Yui disregarded his comments and merely blamed his skill -- episode 3 serves as evidence that Yuuya is a great pilot. Those 'worse pilots' had actual training in those machines. Yuuya never had training in the Type 94 or whatever model it was.

Japanese TSFs work like this: only the best pilots can pilot them.
American TSFs, on the other hand, allow rotation of pilots.

Eivion wrote:
Yuuya was too busy acting like a racist ass to give her the time of day outside of complaining. She might have given him advice if he didn't start to crap on her country. Simply put he wasn't anywhere near ready to listen, and Yui herself lost her patience with him the first few times they argued.


Please point out where Yuuya start to crap on Japan. I don't recall him trash talking Japan. Yui insulted him every time and told him to deal with it. Yuuya was not provided specifications of the machine and was basically told "figure it out as you go".

Eivion wrote:
They were more outstrategized and outgunned than their ability to use the machine sucking.


Uh, I believe the show mention that BETA don't use strategies. They're unpredictable IIRC.

Eivion wrote:
I'm particularly consfused on where I was a hypocrite.


From your reply to my post, it seems you favor Yui A LOT. I admit my post may have been one sided but I don't think my points were wrong.
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