Forum - View topicANNCast - This One's About Reviews!
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Farix
 Posts: 152 |
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I'll start off by saying that I am one of the anime and manga editors over at Wikipedia. One of the things that editors at Wikipedia look for in a review is anything that isn't a regurgitation of the plot with about two or three lines of "here is why you will like it" tripe. Such "reviews" are almost always useless. Instead, we like to use reviews that actually analyze the work, compare and contrast it with similar works, making connections with current trends, and provide context of why the work is significant (or not). Also, any information about the work's production, development, influences, and—believe it or not—genre are always in short supply.
Of course, we don't quote just any random review. We look for reviewers with some degree of expertise and credibility or a review from a publication with editorial control. We also prefer reviewers who actually attach their real names to their reviews instead of a pseudonym or internet handle. And self-published reviews are always suspect unless the reviewer has already established their credentials via another publication. Now let me go off on a tangent about a slow moving battle I've been having about a Carlo Santo quote from a "RIGHT TURN ONLY!!" column. I won't mention the specific manga as I don't want to encourage some jerk to vandalize the article. Anyways, while reviewing a particular manga, Carlo made the quote, "The best thing since Sugar Sugar Rune? Maybe not ... but it's damn close." This quote was incorporated into the Wikipedia article about that manga. However, every couple of months, there is a random person that chance the quote to read, "The best thing since Sugar Sugar Rune." Of course I always restore Carlo's full quote, but it irritates me to no end. On another related tangent. I use to love Newtype USA until I attempted to use it as a source for Wikipedia. It was then that I discovered just how much of a fluff magazine it was. Most articles on an anime or manga gave you a plot overview and very little else. This may be fine for someone looking for a new anime to pick up. But for an encyclopedia, it was generally useless. I really haven't looked into Otaku USA's coverage of anime series. But I do know that it is rarely used as a source as well. I will agree that the reviewer ratings are pretty much worthless. Exactly how do you scale an opinion? I read a review to see what the opinion of the reviewer is. Not to see where a topic is rated on some arbitrary scale whose standards I have absolutely no clue about. As for the difference between a professional and and amateur reviewers, I would actually attribute the difference to both experience and skill. A professional reviewer will have the depth of acknowledge gained though experience in watching hundreds of anime or reading hundreds of manga. He or she will also have the skill to communicate that acknowledge in a way that is interesting, engages the reader, and is easy for the reader to understand the reviewer's point of view. |
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Reaper gI
Posts: 299 Location: UK |
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They are visual novel adaptations. Most VN adaptations try to cover every route at once which makes it harem-ish. On accout of Key games focusing priciply on one female lead this doesn't happen anything like as baddly. The light/comedic intro, development to force emotive responce, forced drama/tragedy, then retcon end; is their particular style. They originated the formula, which is then done to death by many other plot writers, so can be partly forgiven (Kanon is one of the very first moe games). Also as regards to manic defence of the KyoAni versions. They are some of the most faithful TV adaptations of ANYTHING to the source material. Very little filler or omission. The scenes are often made to look identical to the game, hence some bad fixed camera positions. They are inteded to not piss off serious hardcore fans (of the game) by altering anything or making little errors. This means they can't fix the inherent problems like Clannad's terminaly long seeming intro, for example. They may be some of the best series at what they do, but many do view that stucture as flawed (or now cliched). This is a valid criticism. If on the other hand you trashed Afterstory for animation errors or being full of filler, (after it actually gets to the afterstory arc*) then I would flame and demand a damn good reson why. As to my opinion on reviews these days, I read them for entertainment especialy a vicious trashing of something. If I actually want to decide what to buy/watch I ask one of my freinds who have similar tastes to me if I missed out on anything good. I'll also pick up the odd random title, if I like it I recomend it back. *I'll except that showing lots of the minor character backstory routes in a row like that is quite a weak start. Last edited by Reaper gI on Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Baltimoron
 Posts: 43 Location: Charm City |
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Good discussion about fan reactions to reviews. I'd love to see a comparison between the proportional amount of enraged responses anime critics get vs. those of mainstream film writers. My hunch is that the good folks at ANN hold a less favorable butthurt to review ratio than, say, Roger Ebert, but I bet there're at least a couple people in his enormous audience who send him unsolicited letters about mind control drugs in tap water and alien sodomy abductions. One of the occupational hazards of fame.
Speaking of occupational hazards, exposure to opinions that differ from your own--often radically and indelicately worded--is the primary risk of being somebody who reads media reviews. Audience members have no real ground for offense so long as a critic refrains from obvious line crossing like racism, misogyny, etc. If your investment in a work is simultaneously passionate and fragile then it's best if you enjoy the work in your own private way. That way probably includes a body pillow and the comforting monitorglow of an IRC channel full of similarly maladjusted basement dwellers if you're a moe fan. But hey, whatever hones your hanzo. (I kid, I kid) A reviewer's responsibility is to deliver honest criticism. A reader's responsibility is to recognize the subjectivity of criticism and separate her or himself from the work being reviewed. |
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walw6pK4Alo
 Posts: 9322 |
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Quickly, on the topic of "Oh man, but show x gets so awesome at episode y!" turns out to be more of "Show x hits a brick wall at episode y and never recovers" far more often.
It's rare for shows to ever really increase in their enjoyment and other points, but it's far too easy for a show to jump off a cliff and turn in to utter shit. |
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Fronzel
Posts: 1906 |
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What a cowardly and uncreative philosophy. Slavishly apeing the source material, warts and all, is exactly the wrong way to adapt anything. The Air movie had a pretty loose grounding in the original and it was quite good. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Well, it seems somewhat reasonable when it comes to story, character, etc. You don't necessarily want the adapters to go through and change a bunch of stuff just because they think it's bad. I agree though that it's a rather absurd thing to do when it's something inherently tied to the limitations of the previous medium. I mean if you're going to go by that philosophy, why even adapt it? |
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jenthehen
 Posts: 835 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio |
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I know this is ridiculous, but it's a HUGE pet peeve of mine.
For the love of GOD, can we please all stop mispronouncing Kanon? It's pronounced like the English word "Canon" ... because the name is based on Pachelbel's Canon (Canon in D minor) ... (pronounced the same as the weapon "Cannon"). I have no idea why so many people seem to pronounce it "Kah-nawn" ... that is just so wrong ... on every level. It wouldn't even be a Japanese pronunciation (as that would be "Kah-nown" - with a long "o"). Please, people. For the sake of my sanity. |
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Fronzel
Posts: 1906 |
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No, that sounds pretty good to me. Maybe they'll surpass the original. I rather think the Air movie did. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Not to mention now that there's a show called "Canaan" it can get really confusing if one person says they're watching "Kah-nawn" when they're referring to Kanon. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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And maybe they will make a bunch of stupid changes and it will suck. It varies by situation as I said but clearly in certain cases at least it is a pretty smart approach to just leave it as is. For instance, if it's a work I really like already I'd generally prefer they don't approach it with such a mentality. Why mess with something that isn't broken? Odds are you'll just mess something up. |
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YotaruVegeta
 Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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I have a difference of opinion, but not regarding the reviewer discussion.
I guess nerd and geek are interchangeable; I tend to use geek for people who who have a passion for a particular hobby or form of entertainment. Nerd, for me, is someone who is really smart- usually at the expense of social interaction. So Mr. Fantastic= nerd Comic Book Guy= geek To get to my damn point, I think that hardcore sports fanatics are included under the umbrella of geek. I'm not into sports, but these fans spout history and stats like mecha fans recite Gundam model numbers. Just because sports involve buff dudes facing off against each other doesn't mean that their fans aren't a bit "off." Maybe they're more accepted by the general population, but they're geek to me! I have never owned any DBZ collections; but if I would buy anything, I think I would want Dragonball Kai. I have enough of my original viewing of it stuck in my head. I would appreciate a totally new edit of it over these umpteen special editions they put out. |
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_Earthwyrm_
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It''ll be the most dynamic episode in the dynamic history of the dynamic ANNCast. 
Still, this is an interesting idea for an ANNCast, though it'll probably have more relevance to people who spend more time on the forums. I wonder which forum members will really be the ones on the show? I guess moderators are technically 'forum regulars'; that'd be a good episode, there's some witty folks on the moderation team here. This week's (technically last week now, I suppose) ANNCast was great. It's really interesting to go into the details of the review process with so many influential reviewers. In particular, I was glad to hear the discussion about fan reactions - especially since there was no real pussyfooting around the subject. Bringing up the 'B is the new F' mentality, and the KEY fandom might have been potentially controversial issues, but it really is a readily observable phenomenon, so I'm glad that it was addressed directly. In regards to the 'nerdiness' discussion at the beginning of the Podcast - I've come to just accept people using those terms any way that they like. It's usually pretty obvious from the context of the conversation what the person using the term considers nerdy or geeky, and the definitions for both of those terms just vary too much from person to person - in the end, rather than thinking that the terms are 'losing their meaning', I'm not sure that they really ever had any consensus meaning in the first place. It was also funny to hear Zac commenting on that person who was constantly criticising the review process here, but whose own reviews didn't make the cut when she sent them to him. It's at times like this that knowing the background helps. 
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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It took me a while to actually get to listen, but this definitely was one of the better podcast episodes so far.
I've tried writing a couple of reviews here and there, obviously not in anything resembling a professional capacity, and that has made me appreciate the amount of effort and ingenuity behind this kind of work. Suffice to say that it's easier for me to stick to occasional analysis and commentary than to actually review something. I envy you guys, but in a positive way. 
In any event, I've never had any huge problems with ANN (or for that matter, AWO) reviews in general so as far as I'm concerned you're doing something right. Hey, if certain individuals who shall not be mentioned have considered them worthy of plagiarism, that's usually a fair sign of quality (and the case was ultimately resolved, thankfully). Specific ratings aren't important to me, unless there's a clear contrast between the content or tone of the review and whatever the score indicates. Which makes me laugh or roll my eyes, but isn't usually worth mentioning. It can just be the sign of a lazy writer that didn't get his or her point across properly. I do realize, of course, this is one part of what makes reviewing mediocre shows particularly difficult. I tend to be respectful and laid back as far as criticizing reviews goes, regardless of whether I loved or hated the show in question, only really nitpicking the review if it is completely uninformative or full of factual errors. And even then, I have to be very bored because it's not what I really want to do. I personally prefer to talk about arguments and get something out of the discussion, if applicable, not to argue over tiresome formalities or trivia. To say the least, that sort of thing gets old rather quickly and I try to avoid it these days. One thing I will say though is that I'm pretty forgiving about shows that take a while to really pick up, if the result is worth it. Which is definitely a very subjective thing, what works for me may not work for others and vice versa. |
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YotaruVegeta
Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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I am still a goofy idiot, but I'm glad that with maturity I have evolved from being an irrational, bile-spewing goofy idiot. One day, the moe fans will learn as well.
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Kyogissun
 Posts: 676 |
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You know, concerning the whole level of nerdiness behind modern warfare 2, what about the person that just got the hardened edition? I got just that, the artbook and the metal case...
I think that's a LITTLE nerdy. I didn't want the lame ass goggles. I found those such a waste of seventy dollars and I had both Assassin's Creed II and Left 4 Dead 2 the following week. Plus, as I have stated on other places, I am a BIG sucker for ANY metal cases. I don't get upset when I see different reviews for Key series. It's not for everyone... But I would be lying if I said I don't hold these series on some kind of golden pedestal above all other anime. So, I imagine other people do the same but take it a whole hell of a lot further. As for the conspiracy theory, I can't confirm or deny... Because I've browsed forums where I have seen 'potential' for that kind of behavior, but I've never seen like people getting super pissed off about these kinds of things. I've seen them share the level of investing time to discuss the depth of these shows as I have, but these are the kinds who know japanese and whatnot... I would love to tell people to NOT leap on negative reviews for Air or Clannad (but again, I really can't say I care for Kanon like the others) but the level of almost religious like inspirational feelings these shows can evoke from people, you just have to deal with them. ...This is going to sound idiotic, but (and god forgive me for saying this) I hold the story conveyed in titles like Clannad and Air on levels of respect I do for the bible. I know, very idiotic to some, but that is how important those two titles are for me. Air more than anything else... That has a really personal conveyance of the relationship between a mother and child. And I hold my mother with such high regards and love for her, that the story within Air does so much honor to those types of relationships I cannot handle seeing people truly slander it. So at the least, know my love for it is not blind passion, but one from real... things. I'd like to ask though, which do you guys think is worse? The idiotic kinds of shounen fans? Like the ones who raged the day naruto got licensed? Or the occasional couple of Key fans? Key fans will go away at some point. But there will continue to be people who will find some problem with how 'action show x' isn't being handled the way they think it should. Sure, Key fans may ***** and moan about reviews, but they're not mad about how they're getting their titles. |
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