Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2009-12-04]
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Renaisance Otaku
 Posts: 469 Location: Modesto, CA |
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Personally, I always thought of DYRL as a great love letter to fans of the show. I saw it about halfway through my run of the series and it made perfect sense. Though without that foreknowledge, I'm sure it would've been lacking in the character department. Oh, and it's been in the US for decades. Just in horrible, edited dubbed form.
As for Frontier, no mention of the great debate between Big West and Tatsunoko over who owns the rights? I think that's still going. HG is a pain, but no one can actually sell the overseas rights at the moment. I agree that Frontier would be pricey, but can't see it doing any worse than any other mecha show. The music was done for the show, so it can't be too prohibitive. Though didn't we get this question already. Also back when it was about Zero (which i enjoyed but found a bit unmemorable, sort of like Frontier)? As for the constant use of ADV's sales as a measure for saying Macross wouldn't do too well, I think it's worth pointing out that the majority of Macross fans had already owned the AnimEigo (who were the ones that actually remastered it, not ADV) set for years, and that HG was selling said set for 40 bucks before and during the release. The ADV set was actually the 4th release of the show (AnimEigo box, three box collection, HG box at deep discount). You only got the ADV set if you absolutely had to get the dub, obsessed enough that Mari's involvement was worth the price, or didn't know any better. I can see using that argument if it was the lone set, but it wasn't, and most fans felt the previous set was better anyway (particular the quality of the Japanese audio). That's like saying Gundam won't sell because the third release set didn't do well. Sure, there's stragglers waiting for a deal and blind buyers, but most of the hardcore fans already bought it before the version you're evaluating. |
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Shale
Posts: 337 Location: The Middle of Nowhere, DE |
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There's also the horrible, unedited dubbed form. But yeah, not really ideal.
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Otaking09
 Posts: 637 |
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Glad mine got submitted...
Again, Eureka Seven just clicked with me. And RahXephon... did not... I never said Rah was a "bad" show, but my whole point, was the dangers of overly positive reviews. Back then, I expected an "A+" to be an A+. And... I just didn't feel it. I knew it was different from Eva, I understood the origin and the lingo, but the ending made everything else invalid (hate those types of endings by the way...) But still... great topics of Macross! I've only seen ADV's dubbed ver. of Macross. Very good. Vic Mignogna rocks yet again... Macross Plus was also pretty good. In it's own way... A more subdued plotting, in exchange for a character driven story. Still good! Haven't seen DYRL yet... |
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vashfanatic
 Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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Macross Zero was actually my first exposure to the Macross franchise, and my immediate reaction was"OMGZ a mecha concept I actually like!" Well, since then I've watched quite a lot of other Macross series and my opinion of it has gone down, mostly because of how little it really means to the rest of the franchise. There is some connection in it to Macross Frontier (the episode where there's a movie being made out of the story, the implication that Sheryl Nome is a descendant of the characters, and a few references to the "bird people") but most of it suffers from being part of Shoji Kawamori's "spiritual phase," along with Arjuna and Aquarion, both of which are heavy on the preaching and poor on anything else.
I've yet to see much Macross 7 but... the art design is not really appealing to me right now. Macross Plus is wonderful. Macross Frontier is, as a 25th anniversary project, rather pandering to its fanbase and a giant love song to the franchise, which is probably part of why I like it. It has some definite weaknesses (mostly the fact that its characters are still in high school, what the hell?), but it has a kind of summer blockbuster feel to it that's refreshing compared to, I don't know, Macross Zero's earnest seriousness and attempts to be deep. To me it was a sign that Kawamori had finally snapped out of the funk he'd been in for almost a decade. Fluff? Yes. Tremendously fun fluff? Yes again. So now people need to stop asking Brian why Macross isn't licensed yet. He's answered twice. What you really need to ask him is what he thinks of Rob Bricken's continued insistence that the Robotech franchise is a thousand times better than that of Macross. Otaking09: I agree that A+ needs to be given out sparingly. I love RahXephon and disagree with all your criticisms of it, but I wouldn't consider it an A+ series, and I sympathize with people thrown by hype. I probably would hate Beyond the Clouds less if people didn't keep claiming it was a masterpiece. That said, Speed Grapher is your favorite GONZO series? Really? I mean, I liked it once through, but there are gobs of better series made by them, like Gankutsuou and even (though I like the book so much better) Welcome to the NHK, which you mention as greats. |
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walw6pK4Alo
 Posts: 9322 |
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And those FFS screencaps are how I'd want DYRL to look. Same with Char's Counterattack, Patlabor 2, and others. I only use the Galaxy Express films in reference to their dates, the late seventies and early eighties), and hot to how they actually look. If anything, Char's Counterattack and Five Star Stories are probably much closer for comparison purposes.
I do plan on getting that BluRay release for Five Star, it looks magnificent. |
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spartydragon
 Posts: 61 Location: Portland, OR |
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Sheesh, I can't believe I joined the forum just to say this....
Anyway! Art student to save the day! 
There are, in fact, some very basic criteria involved in determining animation quality: 1. Framerate: and how it's used. Generally, a higher framerate looks nicer, but I've seen some fairly low framerate animation that works. Low framerate =/= bad animation. For example, all of those panings and zoomings and reaction shots can be highly effective storytelling devices if they're used correctly. Like anything else, they can be overused - and they oftentimes ARE overused in battle sequences, which is a shame because battles are THE place to break the budget and animate it as fully as possible. Some examples of well timed/used slow pan over a still frame: Establishing shots over a landscape, with or without voice over. This is basically a comic panel, and it accomplishes the same things - establishes setting, gives the viewer a break from watching two characters just stand around talking, and maybe presents a plot point. It can also be used effectively in flashbacks; a slow pan across a single scene with a voice over explaining the situation and a few sound effects or faded dialogue. Gintama uses this very well. Of course, THIS useage relies heavily on the next criteria... 2. Design: this one is a bit more subjective because it largely comes down to art style and personal taste. Personally, I wouldn't have CLAMP do the character designs for the anime version of Gintama, but I know a lot of fangirls who'd absolutely love it. So when I talk about design, I'm going to leave character design out of it for the most part, and focus more on the mechanics of it. - Color palette: Do the colors fit the story? You wouldn't use a bright and cheery color pallet for a gritty sci-fi drama, and a washed out, whimsical pastel pallet probably wouldn't work for an action show. - Backgrounds/environments: are they fully realized, or just hinted at? Is the style consistent with the characters or are they just sort of generic stock backgrounds? Like color, this depends on the story being told. The entire show should look like one artist worked on the whole thing, so consistency is key. Sometimes a generic background works perfectly fine, but others look all the better with a little extra kick. Soul Eater accomplishes this nicely. - Character consistency: Are the characters on model most of the time? This is a big one, anyone who watches Bleach knows that poor Ichigo is off model a good 70% of the time. The ability to keep a character looking like, well themselves is KEY to determining animation quality. If the animator's can't draw the characters consistently, even an otherwise well animated scene will crash and burn. - The use of computer generated imagery: a well placed/rendered/colored CG object won't be noticed, but a poorly placed/rendered/colored object will stick out like a sore thumb. Generally speaking, the color palette and type of show is what helps blend CG elements - it's easier to slip something computer generated into a more realistic environment than a very cartoony one - unless it's done for laughs. Ghost in the Shell uses CG extremely well, and Gintama (although considerably more cartoony and bright than GITS) has a lot of stealth CG lurking around in the background. Wow that's a wall of text isn't it? X) Anyway, there's other technical factors like lighting, and shading and the use of patterns and such but that varies quite a bit, and is largely dependent on budget. |
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vashfanatic
Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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Yes, it was, but thanks, it would be a good list of criterion for any reviewer try to decide whether the animation/art is good or not. Thanks for joining and giving such good input! I'd ask you, though, what you think of the kind of watercolor backgrounds that have been seen in some recent series like Nabari no Ou and Simoun? Do you think that's just lazy, or that in the right kind of show it can add to the art? |
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Anime World Order
 Posts: 389 Location: Florida |
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Yes! Another soul "saved" by having watched Odin! Remember, kids: YOU TOO can watch Odin--albeit, the shortened, "less terrible" version that is still terrible despite the lack of the SUPER SECRET SURPRISE ENDING--via Netflix streaming!
...but at the same time, I'm not 100% on board the definition of a "professional" review put forth by Todd. To me, a professional review--a professional ANYTHING, really--is one that someone was paid to write, regardless of tone or quality. Most anime podcasts (including my own) are entirely fan produced and don't have any sort of official sponsorship or paid staff. So no, I can't hire an editor or an audio engineer! There aren't very many people for whom producing a podcast is actually part of their job. This is why I would say that, despite the total difference in style/tone/production, both Right Stuf's Anime Today and Anime News Network's ANNCast are "professional" podcasts. Speaking personally, I don't see a substantial qualitative disconnect between the reviews and articles I do professionally for Otaku USA (my latest web article can be read here; it's about vampire anime over the decades...and how bad almost all of them are!) and the reviews I do for the Anime World Order podcast. True, my podcast review of Macross DYRL is much longer than what I wrote for the Otaku USA Macross piece, but the same points got made. Perhaps it's because I'm freelance and my writing isn't what I rely on to pay for my living expenses, but everything I do, whether it's for the podcast or for pay, is done on a volunteer basis. I've never been assigned a random title I never heard of out of the blue to review along with a deadline by an editor. Maybe situations like that are the mark of the "true" professional. But I think the existence of that situation is the reason the question was asked. "Do you trust reviews written by people who received compensation in return less than you would ones done without compensation?" A lot of people perceive this as the difference between "wanting to" do something and "having to" do something. That's why they're more willing to trust fan bloggers and message board posters over paid reviewers because they're wary that professional reviews might be influenced by external forces into being dishonest or are just doing it because they need the money and there's no other way they can make a living. For big-money entertainment media (videogames, US TV, Hollywood movies, etc.), this is an absolutely valid concern. There's so much at stake there that you get the feeling the writers may be toning down what they really think about something. Recent example: not many professional reviewers wrote "hey, don't buy the PC version of Modern Warfare 2 because there are no dedicated multiplayer servers which makes for a frustratingly non-level playing field since server lag doesn't equally affect everyone, and also it costs more than most other PC games of its type." Maybe instead they said "oh sure there are no dedicated servers, and some gamers won't like that, but there are so many games being played that it doesn't matter too much! 94 out of 100!" The anime industry is so much smaller by comparison that companies can't afford to play that whole "if you say bad things about this property we released, we won't permit you coverage from now on!" game. So my trust of reviewers is based less on "professional" vs "amateur" than what positions the writer holds. Based on the responses sent in, it looks like that's a general consensus. |
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spartydragon
Posts: 61 Location: Portland, OR |
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^-^ Oh wow, I gotta look those up... Nabari no Ou: Those definitely aren't lazy backgrounds but it does create a sort of tension with the characters. Now, had they carried some of the textures over into the coloring in the characters, or made their lines a little sketchier it would be PERFECT, but as it is it just doesn't quite mesh. Simoun: I could only find a few clips but it seems to be blended better - the stronger color palette really helps in this case. Generally, if they want to go more painterly with the background, they need to follow through and bring some of that into the characters. It doesn't have to be much - a simple and subtle old paper texture will do the trick, and it isn't hard to plop that in in whatever programs they're using to color. |
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SalarymanJoe
 Posts: 468 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA |
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I think there's a big "it depends" attached to this. There are recording labels which probably also have a stake in the songs and its very possible that the background music and the vocal music could be held by different companies; my exhausted, Friday-morning-one-cup-of-coffee-brain seems to remember this playing a part into why Macross 7 has not been licensed, either. I would also like to note that while Brian puts the Harmony Gold gorilla up front, I think it should take a bit of a back seat. While HG does control some rights over the use of the name Macross, they're not immediately filing injunctions over its use without compensation. US Renditions, Manga, AnimEigo and ADV have all tithed (presumable) to HG for their various releases of Macross. He also noted of HG's actions over MechWarrior 5, which is very possibly true, but it should be noted that MW and BattleTech in the past have been known to lift mechanical designs from other well known Japanese cartoons. I believe this practice may have stopped (I don't follow these games very much) but HG may have a legitimate claim.
I agree and disagree with this. I've known people who've been on the anime bandwagon longer than I have that don't like the film and I've know people who haven't who love it when they've seen it. Sure, it's an individual thing but I don't think necessarily that you have had to crawl out of the C/FO to love this film. Someone else noted that this was like a love letter to the fans, I would agree with that but I would also agree with the opinion that DYRL also stands for a hope and optimism that anime fans at that time held about what could be accomplished in terms of animation. It was a film that had captured the ever-expanding capabilities of working hard and being passionate; even going so far as highlighting that pure emotions can overcome a dystopian situation. It's a set of values that were eventually dashed later by the reality of the Lost Decade. To me, any imperfection from story quality or that it is not a carbon copy of the TV series registers as only a minor complaint as the rest of the film bubbles over with enthusiasm and nativity. |
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Otaking09
Posts: 637 |
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vashfanatic said:
Don't get me wrong! I still would like to buy RahXephon! Weird isn't it? I didn't hate it, but expecting perfection really, and I mean REALLY dragged down the "enjoyment" factor... So I'd like to buy it, just to re-experience it again, but this time, not expecting anything, except what I know! It might change my opinion... for the better... And it's cheaper too! And I didn't say Speed Grapher was my favorite Gonzo series, it's just one of them! NHK would probably have that honor (after all it's #2 on my Top 10 list!). Seriously though, Speed Grapher really appealed to me! Some parts were a bit to "darK", but it showed how CRAZY Gonzo can be. And in anime Crazy almost always works!!! ...if you do it correctly... And yes, Gankutsuou does deserve an A+. An EASY A+! |
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giascle
 Posts: 157 Location: Denver |
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You need to rethink your favorites. NHK was worse than the source material, but the book and the manga were already so good it just didn't seem that way. Gankutsuou certainly doesn't deserve an A+, and anyone who says so has never read the book; Gonzo just added some pretty colors and original plot points, which were the worst. I haven't seen Speed Grapher, but it also doesn't look like something to get excited over. There are VERY few Gonzo shows (actually, Texhnolyze is the only one I can recall off the top of my head) that do the original work justice, or - if they are directly by the studio - are great in their own right. |
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hissatsu01
 Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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Texhnolyze wasn't done by Gonzo. |
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giascle
Posts: 157 Location: Denver |
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Right, I was thinking of Last Exile. Sorry, they both have X's in the name. :U |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Alas, I am amongst those who didn't realise the drawbacks of the ADV version before buying it. I'm still satisfied to own their release, but to know that a better audio transfer had been available in R1 certainly irks me. In my defence, other options were out of print. |
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