Forum - View topicANN Book Club -- Gankutsuou
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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You are certainly welcome to compare the novel and the series, including key points and differences between Edmond Dantes in the book, and Edmond Dantes in the series...but please do it in the context of the series. I think it's stretching it to call Dantes' identity "common knowledge" since Monte Cristo isn't all that widely read anymore. Basically I'm saying spoil the book away, but please do not give things about the series away, for instance Dantes' identity at this time. Once we learn who Dantes is, etc., then compare notes with stuff that happens. Does that make sense? |
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Imperialkat
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Well done, guys. On the one hand, talking about Gankutsuou was bound to produce some wonderful posts. On the other hand, how in the heck am I supposed to contribute?
I saw it less as sowing seeds of discontent between the two and more of drawing Albert in by his naivete and curiosity about the world (and the Count). Kinda as if Albert's relationship with Franz was irrelevant to the Count.
Interesting thought, however I think Albert was the target all along. I think the Count had Franz come along just to demonstrate his influence over Albert. I also love the fact that Peppo is still in the story. (S)he's almost like a narrator at times. I hope everyone paid attention during the dinner party in episode 4. I missed most of what was going on in my first runthrough, but now I see all the little things they put into that encounter. If that isn't foreshadowing I don't know what is. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Um, in case you haven't noticed, JesuOtaku tends to go a little bit insane when she finds something she likes (just check out the monstrosity that the Wolf's Rain Book Club thread became). So I decided to go a little insane with her this time, as long as I'm on break and have at least some free time  .
I think of her at times as Albert's subconscious, forcing him to ask questions he'd rather ignore or that, deep down, he knows the answers to. I'm sure there's some fancy literary term for a character who "mirrors" another character's self-conscious, but for now it's beyond me.
That scene seriously had me both laughing and squirming knowing the whole story. Such irony, the Count sitting there civilly with them, saying all the right things to push their buttons. |
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OldCharlieStoletheHandle
 Posts: 1288 Location: Mastic Beach, NY |
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An interesting idea, and perhaps the Count had a very good reason for wanting that prisoner released. After all, it's quite a coincidence that such a perfect opportunity for the Count to place Albert under his obligation should just "happen". As for the clothing, I don't think you are reading too much into it necessarily; since the costume designer is prominently credited on the DVD box (and is referred to as "world reknowned") its very likely that the patterns used were not chosen randomly. |
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Cloe
Moderator
 Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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I don't think you're reading too far into the design at all. Every visual aspect of a series like this is meticulously planned ahead of time by the art direction and design team in order to contribute to the characters and story. A good storyteller knows how to tell a story using nothing more than what you see in the frame on screen, so everything--the color palette, value, layout, and yes, clothing design, contributes its part. Anna Sui, who is credited for the clothing design, is already a world famous fashion designer, but I'm sure other members of the art direction team expanded on her designs to adapt them to distinct personalities and character traits. Gankutsuou gets a lot of attention for its use of texture as a coloring device, and a lot of the praise is a bit overinflated, imo, since it's one of the most common techniques in experimental and underground animation, but I do admire the attention to detail in the colors and patterns chosen to describe each character. |
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Prede
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OK just finished up watching the 3rd and 4th episodes on my DVDs. Like I already said I saw up to episode 8 on Funi's youtube channel a few months ago. But that's where I stopped. So some of this is a re-watch. Also never read the book, but I know a few little things about it . Just things I've picked up here and there. Probally effect my opinion of certian scenes...Anyway here I go....
Episode 1 The first time I watched this episode I found it quite dry. The second time I'm much more interested. Oh and first thing I must say is I'm watching the dub. And they really need to stop casting JYB as the lead. When I first watched this episode I was very anoyed when I heard his voice. He does a great job here, but please they need to mix it up a little in L.A. . Anyway I totally missed the part where Peppo throws the flowers at Albert during the parade on my first watch. That's an interesting scene, I like how it sort of hints at things to come. This may be why Albert seemed interested in her from the get go. Because she seems so interested in him. Also the visuals during the parade are amazing. They give me a real headache (seriously I'm not kidding they make me feel a little sick when everything is moving), but it all looks really amazing. It's very colorful, lively, exoctic, and errotic even. Very sexual with the girls dancing in the parade. The scenes in the Opera on my first viewing were completely boring. I reall;y didn't care much for them. This time I too was drawn into the short little Opera like Albert. I found it interesting the girl singing looked like she had blood all over her. I wonder if this is a sign of things to come? This anime seems meticulously planned out and designed from the get go. There's a lot there to notice, and a lot of things are set up like this. So I wouldn't put it past them. Anyway when Albert finds the pocket watch I couldn't help thinking that perhaps this is destiny or luck? Or maybe, just maybe this is all a set up? Did the Count drop the watch on purpose? Why does the count even want to meet Albert and Franz? Isn't that weird? Albert thinks nothing of it, but Franz is instantly suspicious. Also this episode shows quite clearly how strong of a personality the count has. He totally overshadows everyone else. He's very powerful. Oh and the Count's speech about love feels very important. He says he was once in love, like the opera. Hmmm? My favorite scene in this episode is the card game. That blew me away the first time I was watching that! Before that scene I was just about ready to give up on this show. But then...wow. The way the Count plays with people's lives is incredible! The Count says something like "One feels like they have become God" . WoW that's insane! Oh and since Albert plays his game, is he then resposible for the two deaths? Could you call him a murderer for plyaing with human lives like a game? He had good intentions though. I mean he wanted to save someone. If he stood by and did nothing 3 people would have died, since he did something only 2 died. Reminds me of that personality test that asks if you'd be willing to change the tracks on a train, saving a school bus of children, but dooming a man on the tracks in the other direction to death. On one hand you save a bunch of innocent people, but on the other hand you are changing something. Your now directly resposible for pulling a handle and killing someone, where before you had nothing to do with it. But then again not acting was still killing lots of people. Inaction vs action. The other side of the equation of course was would you push a fat guy down on the train tracks (assuming you KNEW it would stop a train which is silly but just go with it) in order to save the same bus of children. This answer usually gets even less people to act, because they feel even more responsible for the mans death, since they physically touch him, and not just a handle or whatever. This is not an indirect death, and not a sad event that the guy happened to be on the tracks. You MADE the fat guy fall onto the tracks with your own bare hands. He was not walking on the tracks, he was not invovled in anyway. He would never have died. But you killed him to save others. Why is his life worth any less then the others? How would you feel to be the fat guy? The other guy on the tracks in the other question? The kids on the bus? If your a kid on the bus would you want someone to die so you could be saved? That's kind of cruel... And could you puch a fat guy? It would take all your might, and you'd be pushing him over onto the tracks. That seems so terrible! But really is it any different then pulling a handle? Same outcome. One man is dead, and a bus of children lives. But the way we look at things is everything. I wonder if this scene comes from that? Anyway on my first watch I totally got tooken over by the count like Albert. But this time I was wondering if maybe ALL the cards had the same guy written on them. I mean out of the three people who could have been saved, the one who actually admits guilt is saved? That's terrible luck. Oh and then I LOVED the ending scene of this episode. Albert starts making out with Peppo and (s)he turns a gun on him! LOL gata love that. Peppo is cool ! Crazy...weird...but cool. Episode 2 When the guy who was sentenced to death meets up with Franz, on my first watch I kept thinking "how much of this is all set up? I mean what are the odds of that? But also how much of this is playing out naturally?" I'm still thinking that here. Some of this feels like a plot. I'm even more convinced now since I can see that perhaps the Count's game wasn't on the level. Oh and LOL at the "Big Ben" style tower with a digital clock on it! LOL! I love that! Also what's with Gonzo and "kids on bikes flashbacks". Really First Gantz, not this? I can imagine one guy going "Hey we need a flashback scene" and the other guy going "well then you need them on bikes! You always need bicycles in a flashback scene!". Then the first guy asks "Wait why?" and the second guy goes "I don't know. But we did it for Gantz and that made sense. Screw it!". 
Oh and the Count kicks all kinds of ass saving Albert here. He looks completely and utterly evil and that bandit is totally freaked out. And Yet again Peppo rules here. (s)he totally tries and save Albert, even though she's the reason he's there in the first place. But still I like her for trying. And she's such a trap lol. I like the scene in the end of the episode when the Count whispers somethign in Albert's ears, and he shouts "She's a Boy?!?!?!" lol! But I must wonder, how does the count know this. Just from looking at her/him? Oh and this show is so exciting and thrilling. It's a real "edge of your seat" kinda series. I just love that! Anyway the scene where the Count gives Albert his watch is odd. Even though Albert found it and wanted to give it back to him, the Count said he could keep it as a reward. IDK why but that's kind of weird to me. And the final thing I found important about this episode was the Count again says "Love is wonderful thing" and he keeps talking about being betrayed. Someone really must have screwed him over in the past. Episode 3 The dream in the begining of this episode is really freaky! Oh and I love how the car horns wake up Albert. Those old style cars are really cool. They so fit in this series. Oh I find the quote that "Albert is the best target for a con artist in all of Paris" to be important. I do think he's very naive, but I can't help understanding him and his way of thinking. I totally get him and why he trusts the Count. And really the Count has done nothing that odd that should be setting off alarm bells. So at this point in my opinion his friends are really overreacting. Oh and the Count's misstress looks amazing! She's gatta be one of the coolest looking anime characters out there. Totally a style of her own. Blue like the count, but elegant, and wonderful looking. And her dresses are all great. The idea that the Count is a vampire keeps coming up. One looks at him and you have to agree with that. Sharp teeth, evil eyes, and they say he's cold to the touch. His style in clothing doesn't help to put down the rumors either. Oh and Franz is really anoying. I don't like him at all. He's too protective of Albert. He's Albert's friend, not mother, so he should really put a sock in it. I never liked him, but this episode makes me really get anoyed at him. He thinks who he is, and that he's above Albert. I just don't like his attitude at all. He's such a frigen snot! I want to give him a slap sometimes. QUite a foil of Albert though. I think I like Albert much more then Franz, even if he is very naive. That's just part of his charm. Oh and the Count's entrance to Albert's place is very ominous. The lights turn off, a wind blows in the house. Creepy! And the Count is NOT happy with the guy taking pictures of him! And this is not a guy you upset! Oh I LOL at "eastern space". Is that like Eastern Europe in the book? LOL. Peppo's back! LoL. Again (s)he's an amazing character, One of my favorites in the series so far. Such a double/tripple agent. Not afraid to backstab you, but still cares about you kind of lol. There's really no one like her/him. And I can't help thinking that (s)he's conncected to the Count somehow. I mean (s)he's working at Albert's house now? That's too much of a coincidence. I think she has somethign hidden up her sleeve here. Although perhaps she just wanted to be able to watch over Albert. Maybe she's not a part of the Count's scheme, and is instead a true third party? Oh yeah that's another thing. I totally feel like the Count has some scheme devolping, even though I've only seen up to episode 8. Part of the fun of this is seeing how much is his doing and how much is just playing out naturally? Or maybe I'm way off base here... Also revealed in thsi episode is Albert's father was going to burn the painting of his mother. Isn't that odd? Why would he do that? Oh and at the end of the episode I totally think the COunt knew Alberts mother. The question is "what kind of relationship did the two have?" Episode 4 Did you guys see the death stare the Count gave Albert's father? I think he must have a lot of hate for Albert's father or the military or something? I mean that's something that really sticks out at me! An interesting quote in the beginig of this episode is said by Albert's father. he says that "praise means very little" . LoL so that's why his house is FILLED with trophies, medals, and awards praising him for his military actions? LOL. Oh and here we notice yet again that the Count DOES NOT EAT. And he claims to not sleep (much?). Is he a really a vampire then? He claims to have lost his soul, and changed his look as well. All signs of a vampire! Probally just a metaphor, but I am interested! Since later he is shown to not be in the photos maybe he is truly a vampire? Or at least lost his soul as he claims to. He's not lieing! Is Albert's mother also from the south of France (the place where Maximilien Morrel is from? I froget the name of the city). And what's the connection between her, Maximilien Morrel (a character who I cannot stand), and The Count (an amazing character!)? Oh another interesting scene was at the dinner table, Albert says "Your almost like part of the family" to the Count, and then the Count smiles! It's an evil smile too.! That got me!! Another interesting small part of this episode is after the dinner Peppo calls Albert a child. I see where (s)he's coming from. Again Albert is very naive, and to say that the Count, a stranger who he knows very little about, is like a family memember, is very childish. But it also shows how Albert thinks the world is generally a good place, like children tend to do. He's not at all jaded, This is why he want to leave Paris. He thinks the best of the world, he thinks there are other great places out there besides Paris. I admire him for thinking so postively. Even though I myself cannot. Even though it may be foolish to do so, I like that. Later when Peppo is talking to the servents (s)he says Albert's mother is in love with the count. But she made sure Albert heard her! She likes playing with his mind! Oh and it's odd that the Count goes to see two graves in this episode. His parents perhaps? But he said he was not from Paris, instead "from a place far far away". So...? And again Peppo is a instigator here. She likes to pester poor Albert. She again is trying to put things into Albert's mind. And since Albert is "a child" he starts to believe them. She says "your father is a man just like any other". Hinting he wants to do something with Peppo or already has! Woah there! What's going on there eh? Perhaps she's just playing around, but still. The she again pushes the idea that his mother is in love with another man. "Who's in the picture?!" . And I love how (s)he's playing with the puppet while saying that! Very cool! I also liked Peppo's line "I specialize in getting into people's drawers" LOL. That's a great double entendre. Again just why Peppo rules. Only (s)he could get away with a line like that. And then the scene where Albert sees it is the Count in his mother's picture is revealed to be a dream. Or is it? Later when Albert is getting changed, yet again Peppo messes with him. She taunts him and makes him change into weird clothing. Also a scene around here with the Count made it CLEAR to me that the Count was royally screwed over by someone in the past. At first I thought perhaps I was just thinking that, but there's no way I'm wrong here. And the fact that the rooms in the Count's house are made of solid gold is frigen nuts! And the scene where the Count attacks Albert with a sword is also very nuts! I was on the edge of my seat with that on my first watch! Very exciting and thrilling! The Count plays it off as a joke, but I think this is far more sinister then that. Predictions: Albert's father screwed over the Count in the past somehow. That's how the Count knew his mother (perhaps those two where in love), and getting back at them is only part of the Count's plan here. But I guess I'll see where this is going. __________ Also since you guys were only stating examples from the first four episodes, and say it's your opinion then I must disagree. I don't think Franz has any kind of crush on Albert. I think his freindship with him lies in the fact that he lost his father at a young age. That's why he cares about him so deeply. There's no other attraction there. Same for the Count and Albert's relationship. Totally not sexual in anyway. At least from my point of view. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Well...I can't confirm this as I don't have the DVDs but apparently on the first disc extras/commentary, Franz's voice actor (or the director himself) affirms that the director's intent was unrequited, romantic love. So there you go. There is such a thing as interpretation, and then there is ignoring the creator's intent. I also don't understand how this dialogue (from their early teen years?) didn't seal the deal for you: Albert: Who do you like, Franz? At least give me a hint. Franz: You wouldn't understand, Albert. There will be other conversations and things later which shed further light on this; I think it's done perfectly. I missed Franz's feelings the first time around, too, and had to have the homosexual overtones pointed out to me, as well, but I'd always felt something odd about their relationship. Looking back now, the signs are much more obvious. |
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pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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Not a lot to add, but I'll chime in anyway...
The slap... I agree with the interpretations, but keep in mind it's also consistent with the "period". An aristocratic gentleman would not likely punch someone under those circumstances in public, even if he were offended. (Imagine the Count, for instance, "punching" someone over such a remark). AFAIK, a slap itself from a gentleman would have been an insult to the recipient's status, almost as if they were not worthy of a proper beating (seems to align somewhat with the "challenge" usage). Punching someone for that remark would lower the puncher's status, in fact. But the point is, Albert intended it as banter between friends, as a joke. Albert is stunned at Franz's slapping him, because he never imagined such a reaction. A slap is the proper feminine reaction to an insulting remark or emotional injury, and I think it was impulsive and revealed more than Franz intended about his feelings, maybe even to himself.
We've already seen Albert's frustration with Franz's patronizing him. The Count would certainly have picked up on that, and his speech turns it against Franz, separating them. Albert has already voiced wanting to sort of "find himself" and make decisions, implicitly meaning on his own. The fact that he must voice those thoughts with such earnestness it is itself very revealing.
I'm glad you mentioned all those. They are quite overt about the symbolism. Peppo's dress when we first meet her has skulls all over it, similar to the skulls on the Count's cards...
I was nearly in glee, this being only my second time through. That dinner dialogue, all of it at Albert's house, is so brilliant from the perspective of having seen the show already.
It's very difficult to get that Mardi Gras/Rave, massive hive party, sexually infused, decadence feeling, and they nailed it. I'm even more impressed with the visuals the second time, and the soundtrack contributes a lot as well (a bit better in Japanese).
I vote yes. The Count is leaving very little to chance here from what we see so far. The fact that Peppo ends up in Albert's home before the Count's visit, and she was the first "foreign" character to receive focus and then to interact with Albert... interesting. I wrote this before reading Prede's post, but I'll leave it. The fact that she is so prominent in the story and runs sort of parallel to the Count makes it fairly certain that there is some connection there, and frankly I've forgotten the details from my first viewing.
What Albert misses, and Franz doesn't, is that there is no reason for Albert to have to decide. I can't think of the logic term, I'm sure there is one, but an assumption is made that Albert misses in the game. He makes the mistake of thinking that it's his responsibility to choose whether 2 people die or 3. The rational response to such a game is simply to tell the Count to decide, since he has the pardon in his hand. Why hasn't he used it himself? I know he explains it as a game, but a game is entered into on one's own decision. Albert need not have participated at all, which is what Franz is trying to say because he knows Albert will internalize the responsibility, having implicitly agreed to the initial assumption.
 Very observant. One of the reasons I love this series is that everything means something, and there is so much going on. And truly, I am enjoying it more the second time through, noticing more, being able to focus on details.
He doesn't say that, but he does say it contains "gay romance". While I agree that Franz has a somewhat romantic feeling toward Albert, I don't even go so far as to call it homosexual, meaning Franz consciously thinking of a romantic relationship with Albert. There is love there, beyond just friendship, but it would be repressed to such a degree in that society to be unthinkable for him. That goes back to my impression that his slap revealed too much, showing inappropriate feelings. I realize his remark in the bicycle scene is intended to project that feeling, though. Aside from that, the director also makes an interesting pointed remark about the novel being picaresque, making the story satirical. The undercurrent of lampooning this society sort of goes unnoticed because all attention focuses on the Count. Albert's parents and his friends other than Maxmillian (even Franz, though Albert's own feelings color his perception of Franz's value) represent that decadence of aristocracy. Another comment was funny... the director sees the Count as the ultimate of "cool" , and based him on Byron and Dracula. Albert is designed to be the audience's viewpoint on the Count. His position is of idolizing the Count as what he wants to be when he grows up because he does assume the positive in the world before he learns the negative, and thus he trusts the Count when no one else does. The Count uses this, of course, because Albert disagrees fundamentally with aristocratic attitudes.
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Prede
Posts: 388 |
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1. Only Geneon's DVDs have the extras. I have the re-release by Funimation so I too cannot confirm this. 2. Their childhood conversation could mean a lot of things. Like for example he's not in love with the girl he's engagaed to. I would assume they've been engaged for years, even during his childhood. And to say he doesn't like her, would be something Albert may not understand. It could also mean he liked Albert's fiance, another thing that would not be something he'd openly admit to to Albert. I had another theory as well, but I forget it at the moment lol. When I remember it I'll be sure to post it. Sure I could be way off base here, and totally off of what the director was doing. But I think you guys are seeing some type of attraction there that's not really there. Of course you claim otherise, with the director commentary, so what do I know? This is a very small point in the show (so far?) so eh whatever. Also since I have not heard this commentary, I was not ignoring what the director intended. Since I had no knowledge of any of that  !
Oh, I totally understand this. But I, Like Albert failed to even consider that there may be another choice. Now on my second viewing of this episode I question why can't the Count just set one of the two "innocent" men free? Why not set no one free? Why is this Albert's choice? But the Count has a very powerful personality, and a way of twisting any situation into something that benefits him. I'd imagine he'd come up with some way of saying "If you don't choose all three will die. We must play my game. There's no other way I will use the pardon. If you don't do something fast all three will die. And it will be all your fault!" but in a way that will make it seem like it's truly your fault someone will die if you don't play. But Albert doesn't even question the Count. I wouldn't either if I didn't have this bird eye view though. Albert is clearly not a superhuman, he's flawed like all of us. But he was blown away by the thought of such a game, such a bold and powerful statement by the count, and the ticking clock. Think FAST or people die ! He was under a lot of pressure, so he just went with it. I understand that completely. I too was fooled by the Count. |
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pparker
Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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But, you may be somewhat unique in that, though I can admit to being fooled in a similar way in my youth (fortunately, lives were not at stake ). The scene powerfully differentiates Albert from all the other characters actually, because he is the only one we've met so far that would have a.) played the game, or b.) felt bad about the outcome (well, Valentine maybe...). Franz represents the immediate rational response to the Count's game, the contrasting viewpoint to Albert's. But put any of the other characters in Albert's place. The most decadent among them would have "enjoyed" the thrill of the game, probably laughing at the ironic outcome, and the rest would have declined just as Franz did, realizing it would be inappropriate for them to decide or simply not wanting to dirty their hands.
Albert's primary fault is in being infatuated with the Count, which comes off as naivete. Like others have mentioned, I don't think he is as naive as appears, just that his judgment is entirely clouded concerning the Count, who appears to be everything that Albert wants to be but isn't yet--remember it started with the Count's impressive flower toss in the opera, where Albert was self-conscious just being there due to his inexperience. That infatuation is overriding all the blatant signs, to everyone else so far besides his parents, that the Count is, at best, worthy of suspicion. |
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Prede
Posts: 388 |
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You truly wouldn't even consider trying to "save" a life? After thinking more clearly, and with this second viewing I can see I would yell at the count and demand he use the pardon to save one of the innocent men. But if I was cought in the moment, like Iwas the first time, I would never even consider such an idea. So could you could think rationally under such a situation? You would outright reject any game he offered? I was totally cought up in the Count's game the first time I watched this. Its such an outlandish, crazy game that it really knocked me off my feat. I would feel compelled to act, otherise be resposible for three deaths. At least without thinking clearly. But with a ticking clock, and all the crazyness, I'd probally pick a card. Due to my inaction, 3 people would die. If I act, only two die. And two are claiming to be innocent, or at least killed so their family would not die. That's pretty good odds that I'll save a "good" person. I wouldn't look at it like I was "playing God" (as the Count wants), but in the same way as my personality test earlier. Inaction vs action, and resposiblity for a human being's death. If I did nothing, people die. So DO something! It's not the right way to look at it...but it's what I saw the first time. I was never "fooled" like that in real life lol. At least not that I know of . But I feel like I could be if cought up in the moment, especially one as crazy as that. All I'm saying.
This is something I can totally see, and actually commented on in my post. Albert see's the best in people, his family, and the world. This is why he thinks highly of places outside of Paris. This is why he trusts the Count. And this is why he's a little naive. Yet it is this quality of him that I find admirable. Despite all the terrible things in the world, to be so un-jaded, and yes perhaps foolish, is something I respect a little. He sees the best in people, when there is nothing most can see. He hopes for the best in them anyway. Interesting... Last edited by Prede on Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Alright this is the last I'll say on the subject until further evidence comes up, promise . But I don't think you're giving Franz enough credit for as an awesome a character as he is. Franz is not repressing or denying his feelings--he's simply too mature for that, in fact he reached that level of maturity at a very young age. He is cool enough to acknowledge his own feelings, and then choose not to act on them, not only because they're condemned by society, but because he knows they'd never be returned and might even jeopardize his friendship with Albert. The slap is a "peek through the mask" in that sense (although he gets away with it because he's a close friend), but it's not driven by subconscious as much as conscious emotion (the difference being that Franz wouldn't have analyzed the slap and been surprised at what it meant, but rather would have internally berated himself for letting his feelings take control of him for a moment. Unfortunately we never really do get inside Franz's head at the time). Franz knows exactly how he feels and still stays by Albert's side anyway, knowing he'll never have his feelings returned. That's the best kind of love there is--noble and utterly selfless.
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pparker
Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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Hmm... there are different ways to look at it, and I suppose it's possible I would choose one under those circumstances, but would not assume any responsibility for the outcome. But just so much is wrong with the situation, that's what I mean. Count says, they aren't judges and this is just a game, as in for entertainment. It's his approach that sets off loud alarms. All I can say is my first thought when he took out the cards and revealed their purpose, I was with Franz... "We're outta here, dude!" .
Yeah, I know, I was just too lazy to go back and credit who said it. I, too, admire that. The problem with being savvy is it sometimes turns into cynicism or a general refusal to trust, which leads to refusal to approach, interact, communicate, etc, which is bad. The problem with naivete is it can include gullibility, which is bad. There's no point in allowing oneself to be fooled or swindled or led astray, but there's great value in acknowledging, finding and validating the good in people. Albert is admirably trusting in goodness, just lacking a bit too much in the savvy department for his own good (and possibly that of others as well).
Awesome is a strong word... but I really wouldn't disagree with your evaluation. The way you put it, your description does sound closer to the truth than mine, and I'm probably not giving him enough credit. For one thing, he seems very much the voice of reason for the show. But I've forgotten enough details that I'll reserve judgment for now, and see how the sheets fall, as it were.
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Again, I'd like to encourage anyone, anyone at all, to start off a weekly discussion. And it doesn't have to be massive or ridiculous like mine; it could just be some general impressions, etc.
Big thanks to dtm42 for helping me out with indexing. I'm a pro now. A few notes: 1. I'm bullet pointing thoughts because after summaries I am too tired to organize them into neat little paragraphs. 2. There are lots of pictures in this one, though I've tried to intersperse them with links so they're not overwhelming. But you can't really discuss this series without the visuals, and I think pictures just make everything more fun. So indulge me. Episodes 5-8 (Spoilers) Episode 5: Do You Love Your Fiancee? Summary ~While inside the Count’s magnificent home and wonderland, Albert, Franz, Beauchamp, and Morrel meet Haydee, the Count’s lovely female companion, who swears her absolute allegiance to the Count’s every whim. While discussing marriage on the way back from the voyage, Morrel is visibly upset to learn that Valentine and Franz’s engagement is out of convenience and not love. When he insults Parisians as corrupt, Albert draws his sword, and the Count encourages them to duel. Albert loses the duel and falls into shark-infested waters, but is rescued by the Count. Alone in a cave they share a heart-to-heart; later, Albert asks his parents how they met, to which his father replies vaguely that they had a “storybook courtship.” While the Count approaches Fernand about financial backing, Albert chats with Eugenie about the fight and love, struggling with increasing doubts about his mother’s fidelity.~
Episode 6: Her Melancholy, My Melancholy Summary ~Albert gets two tickets to the opera from the Count, who tells Albert to invite Eugenie. Meanwhile, Eugenie is at home, and runs into Lucien leaving her mother’s room. On the way to give Eugenie her ticket, Albert runs into the Count, who gives him a ride to the Danglars’ mansion. The Count lures Baron Danglars into letting him open an account with unlimited credit, and then buys Madame Danglars’ prize horse from Baron Danglars. When Madame Danglars finds out her husband sold her horse, she throws a fit. The Count works his charms on Mme. Danglars; however, she is still furious with her husband. Eugenie reveals to Albert Lucien’s affair with Madame Danglars, and they leave to avoid the impending fight about the horse. Later the Count and Haydee make a stir at the opera with a dramatic entrance, but Haydee is visibly perturbed when she sees Fernand Morcerf, and faints. In the Danglars household, Mme. is delighted when her horse is returned with complimentary gifts, and M. is suspicious of how much money the Count is depositing in his new bank account. Unbeknownst to either, the horse has a camera in its eye.~
Episode 7: The Secret Flower Garden 
Summary ~At the opera, Maximilien confronts Franz about Valentine, and is appalled to hear that Franz doesn’t love her considering Maximilien’s own feelings. Franz later gives Albert free reign to rectify the situation, so Albert decides to help Maximilien win Valentine’s affections. They come up with a plan and go to visit Valentine at her home, but Maximilien confesses his love right off the bat much to Albert’s frustration. Valentine tells them to leave, saying that no one ever takes her feelings into account. Meanwhile, Heloise Villefort, Valentine’s stepmother, is out with her son Edward and Mme. Danglars for a carriage ride when their coach loses control and they are saved by the Count (through the Count’s servant Ali). Heloise reveals to the Count that Valentine will inherit the family fortune, not Edward. The Count works his charms on her and presents her with a poison-filled ring due to her interest in toxicology. Baptistin (another of the Count’s manservants) has been sent to retrieve a prisoner named Benedetto.~
Episode 8: A Night in Bolougne Summary ~The Count invites Albert and his family to a dinner party to celebrate his new villa, which was owned by the Villeforts when Valentine’s mother was still alive. The Count has invited Villefort (the law), Morcerf (the military), and Danglars (the bank) and their families, as well as some other favorites like Beauchamp, Lucien, and Franz. While the men talk business Heloise slips some poison into Valentine’s drink, and Maximilien shows up and has his feelings shot down harshly by Villefort. He later confronts Valentine and apologizes for the other day, giving her a treasured necklace as a gift. Villefort and Mme. Danglars have a clandestine meeting in which Mme. Danglars mentions their child; meanwhile, the Count introduces everyone else to the Marquis Andrea Cavalcanti (Benedetto, the prisoner). The Count announces that the villa is haunted, and invites his guests to see the one room he left intact since moving in; however to get to the room they will split into three groups, led respectively by Albert, Franz, and Eugenie, and the first to reach the room will receive a prize. Mercedes confronts the Count, saying her reminds her of someone, but he disappears. Albert arrives at the room first with Mme. Danglars and Villefort in tow, but the room is the one in which Mme. Danglars gave birth to their child. She completely freaks out when the Count’s “prize” is a small, rusty chest; Villefort looks on furiously. The Count reveals to Albert and only Albert his illness.~
Well that's it. Hope no one feels cheated by this post; I think I got down my most important thoughts, anyway. |
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TheTheory
 Posts: 1029 Location: Central PA |
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To me it seems like a fallacy to rely on what a director "intended" for a character. All that should be taken into account is whether such a thing is portrayed in the show. If he "intended" Franz to be gay, then either he successfully was able to portray it the way he wanted or he didn't. From the first four episodes (all that I've seen so far), it does seem probable. However, I don't particularly care one way or the other. Just had to get my New Criticism scholck out there. haha. |
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